Meleeing Smn's

[sudo]

I've been meleeing as a smn pretty much my whole smn career so far.

Only exceptions to this are for anticans due to AOE silence. And I usually stay away from scorpions though not all the time... I'm debating if I want to melee flies but probably will do so.

So far, only 1 mnk has told me to stop meleeing. In all 58lv's only 1 guy said something which brings me to:

has everyone else just been too nice to say anything?

or can I swing away with my elemental staffs though I swap weapons like a mad man with 9 weapons and never get any tp for a ws?

So far, even vs AOE mobs, I melee simply because it's a lot more convenient for me to buff the tank and melee part of the pt that's taking damage and need our melee buffs.

I can stay in the back and heal of course but then I waste time running up to the melee line to make sure they all get the buffs, and then run back to the back each time I do a bp.

I don't cast any slower meleeing since I cast and never bother with the tp gain due to constant eq swaps.

It's funny because after initial buffs, I can usually manage 35% tp before I swap eq for a spell. I melee with Apollo staff even while meleeing since i'm often the main cure.

Other benefits of meleeing:

1) I see mob specials a lot closer and can react faster, though it's not really much harder from the back to be honest. However, if your front lines are galkas and they are fighting some smaller creature like a lizard, that secretion or ultrasonics can be hard to see. You can always read the chat log but I find that to be very tedious and I respond much better to grafix.

2) I can always position myself to the side or back of mob since I'm meleeing and I almost always avoid directional AOE's which have hit backline mages a lot more often than me.

3) Stoneskin spam is constant vs AOE mobs. I almost never take any damage what so ever. Since I get the buff no matter what, it doesn't really hurt me to suffer the AOE.

4) Whatever damage got though stoneskin is almost never enough to put me into danger and I'm a taru with paper armor. The damage dealt to me also serves to decrease my hate. Not really significant but it's there.

5) Melee damage does add up. I do about 20 damage per wack with an odd elemental staff proc for another 20 or so.

At 36% tp increments, I do some 4x25 = 100 damage meleeing. It's not a lot but hey, that's 1 less bullet the rng has to shoot so it's not completely worthless. I've managed to get the kill shot as a smn on more than one occassion.

6) Mob tp gain. I was the one that did the initial testing with bst for mob tp gain and frankly after a lot of testing, my conclusion is that it doesn't matter. A smn can't even contribute even enough tp to the mob for 1 additonal ws. It can be argued that 36% might add up with someone else to make it significant but really, I have not noticed any different mob behaviors with me meleeing or w/o.

7) AOE petrify moves. This might seem horribly bad for people but it's actually a funny thing. Not to be confused with single targe petrify which can kill a tank, AOE petrify usually kills the people not hit by the attack since it is a hate reset for everyone that got hit. I don't mind getting hit by this because duration is only 5 seconds or so and I just got a free hate reset to 0. The blm in the back didn't get hit so he's got to deal with having all the agro to himself.

8) Barspell casting. It's just faster for me to cast bar spells if I'm standing next to the ppl that need it most than having to run around all the time. Effects are very noticable but alot of ppl forget because it's a nuscience to reapply it all the time due to running.

9) Curga. We know and love DS+curga. We don't like to use it in a party due to hate. We know that taking damage reduces our hate. Avatars don't give smn hate for their curega. So if a smn takes AOE damage, it is reducing their hate, while at the same time curing all the damage away with a bp if they choose to go this route. It's an alternative to the whole -enmity thing. I personally do earthen ward instead and just regen the breakthroughs.

10) The battle music keeps me awake XD
I can always engage from the back row and get the music but since i'm engaged already, might as well take my free swings.

11) I should be resting: It takes 15 seconds to get even 1 tic back. During a standard 1-2 min fight, I spend 30 seconds to cast and perform a bp. The rest of the time I'm casting cures and regen and bar spells and -na spells.

With the lack of Cure IV, and higher regen series, or fast cast support, it's very difficult to keep up with damage a pld is taking by myself. Even with help I'm constantly spamming cure III's. If I take 15 seconds out to rest, the tank might be dead. The bp cast times are unavoidable and I believe they are usually worth the time since they can save me time down the road. This is where I usually ask someone else to take over for the 15 seconds summoning and avatar charge time.

Why not just ask the blm to keep curing for the 15 seconds it's gonna take me to get 1 tic back? Well it's a team game. I have auto refresh on but he won't unless he's subbing smn and then he can't cure anyway. How about the rdm? He can do it but he's usually covering haste and refresh so it's tough to make him to more work.

Ironically when there's a whm in pt already, I find that I rest more in parties instead of meleeing since I have to save up mp to do damage bp's. But usually I work it out to take turns, he'd cure one and rest all through the next and I'd cure the fight after.

With ninja tanks, it's wierd because you pretty much HAVE to keep standing espically if you are main cure. Despite ninjas taking almost no damage the bulk of the time, they must be kept at full hp as much as possible. Their armor just isn't enough if their shadows go down.

As anyone with any ninja experience knows, it doesn't take much to die as a ninja. If you screw up ni-> ichi you can be constantly interrupted and would be very tough to recover from. You can literally die in 4-5 hits w/o shadows. As a smn curing a ninja, I perfer to stand the whole time.

This lets me cast cure III as fast as possible as soon as I see him taking any damage. Usually I have to DS + cure III as soon as the recast timer resets or else he'd die. The time it takes me to stand up might mean that he'd be dead before I get my first cure III off.

12) if I'm leaving carby out to melee for damage, I can't rest anyway, might as well melee.

So that's all my points on meleeing as smn. What are the counter arguments?

[Tirrock]

If you want to melee, you will, and nobody can really stop you.

I don't melee as WHM, SMN, or BLM in exp parties out of preference really. Usually me prefering to stay alive. Most of the stuff I exp on as SMN or WHM is just too dangerous for me to melee.
Most of my exp as SMN now comes from:
bones (blood saber, AoE magic)
pots (mysterious light HURTS, AoE magic)
weapons (whirl of rage's stun is bad)
golems (thunder break stuns)
kindred demons (slow kind of sucks)
floating eye demons (AoE sleep/level 5 petrify)
taurs (no real AoE, I just don't like meleeing these because I fear it'll slow me down, and if somebody gets doomed, casting cursna as soon as possible is needed)

I got into the habit of not meleeing anything unless I'm expected to.

In theory, if you're able to do your job as well as you could not meleeing, without endangering yourself or anybody else, you should be fine meleeing. Although, some people, myself included, prefer it if random mages wouldn't melee.

If the person can keep up their job, I won't ask them to stop. However, it will bother me some. But...if they can't keep up their job, I'll either make note that they weren't too good and to avoid exping with them or ask them to stop (nicely or rudely...depending on how bad they are and my mood...).

I can understand what you mean by reacting to the animations better than checking the log. I react better to sounds than animations/chat logs. To me the battle music/weapons hitting the monster is just more sounds that I have to filter out mentally.
So, I'm willing to believe that you actually can preform better while meleeing... But you should note that I still would prefer it if mages wouldn't melee. Doesn't make much sense, but it's just how I feel.

As long as you avoid meleeing stupid things (like the monsters I mentioned that I exp on) or meleeing with a BRD in the group, you should be fine.

Note; I know when I used to farm sky god pop items, I'd melee pots/dolls/golems/etc and not really care. Simple answer; doing that for such a long time in alliances made me bored of it. I needed to do something. Am I a hypocrite? Probably.

[sudo]

good points. I will probably avoid those mobs as well for those excellent reasons.

But on a lot of other mobs I think I'll still melee.

[Russta]

Just remember that you are giving the enemy extra TP for very minimal damage. You might discard this as a mute point but leveling Ninja to 75 really taught me the significance of this.

[kaply]

Which is also probably another good reason not to leave your avatar out to melee with as well.

Does this mean Russta is going to try SMN next? I mean beyond the low levels like you mentioned in your LJ

[Russta]

Originally posted by kaply
Does this mean Russta is going to try SMN next? I mean beyond the low levels like you mentioned in your LJ

Dear God no >.>

[Mephisto]

I don't really have a problem with mages melee'ing, as long as:

-they arent getting minuets instead of ballads
-the enemy you're fighting doesnt have nasty tp attacks (flies, spiders, etc)
-they dont mess up renkeis
-they dont hesitate to cast spells in favor of "getting that extra hit"

[Teffie]

Re: Meleeing Smn's

Originally posted by sudo
[B]can I swing away with my elemental staffs though I swap weapons like a mad man with 9 weapons and never get any tp for a ws?

Whats the point of Melee'ing if your not even going to get TP to do some sort of damage... Atleast when RDM's Melee they get in a Spirits Within from time to time, and actually contribute some sort of damage.

I can stay in the back and heal of course but then I waste time running up to the melee line to make sure they all get the buffs, and then run back to the back each time I do a bp.

Waste time Running?
BRD's spend every single fight Running back and forth from the Melee's to the Mage's. You have to run back and forth 1 time, maybe 2, per fight, and your saying it is wasting time?
Puller pulls, you run to the melee, summon Garuda/Titan/Fenrir and do the Blood Pact of your choose. Time it so your avatar casts exactly when the puller arrives to the camp, then Release. No time "wasted".
If you have a NIN tank, the time it takes you to run those 8 steps back to the back line, maybe 1 or 2 of his shadows will be gone.
If you have a PLD tank, the time it takes you to run those 8 steps back, the monster will have missed him twice due to Flash Spell's Blind Effect.

I don't cast any slower meleeing since I cast and never bother with the tp gain due to constant eq swaps.

I don't think the problem here is you casting slower. Its a problem about monsters gaining TP. There was also an argument on the RDM forum about how occasionally Melee'ing RDM's will have a "tendency" to get that 1-hit in before casting a spell. They'll have their Refresh Macro targetted on one of the Mages, but they won't hit it until they have finished their slashing animation. The same could apply to you.

It's funny because after initial buffs, I can usually manage 35% tp before I swap eq for a spell. I melee with Apollo staff even while meleeing since i'm often the main cure.

Again.. whats the point

Other benefits of meleeing:

1) I see mob specials a lot closer and can react faster, though it's not really much harder from the back to be honest. However, if your front lines are galkas and they are fighting some smaller creature like a lizard, that secretion or ultrasonics can be hard to see. You can always read the chat log but I find that to be very tedious and I respond much better to grafix.

Your the SMN... What could you POSSIBLY have to "React Faster" to?

All you take care of is Cure's and Status Cure's. Secretion and Ultrasonics are not something you should be concerned with, Thats the job for the RDM and BRD's to Dispel. The only place I could say this is valid is in Onzozo, but then again I dont think have a Galka tank on Torama's hinders your abilities so much that you need to be 3 feet next to the monster to see what its casting.

2) I can always position myself to the side or back of mob since I'm meleeing and I almost always avoid directional AOE's which have hit backline mages a lot more often than me.

Back of the Mob = No. That is THF/Melee Trick Attack area.
Side of the Mob = Sometimes. You'll still be hit by Circular AoE, which the backline mages will not.

Secondly, If your getting hit by Frontal AoE, tell your Main Tank to get his act together and change the direction that the Mob is facing. Problem Solved.

Thirdly, If your main Tank faces the mob perpendicular to the backline, you can see every move that the monster makes.

3) Stoneskin spam is constant vs AOE mobs. I almost never take any damage what so ever. Since I get the buff no matter what, it doesn't really hurt me to suffer the AOE.

I don't know what game your playing, but more often than not, Mobs sometimes tend to use the same AoE skill more than once per fight.

Beside that point, basically your saying you use Stoneskin ALOT. I don't know, but in my opinion Stoneskin is one of the lowest priority BP's which I used while Leveling. I seldom use it with PLD tanks, since it is removed instantly, I'd prefer Aerial Armor for the PLD. NIN tanks I'll use Stoneskin once every two fights, since its a very good buffer incase shadows are down. I'd much rather use a more useful BP than Stoneskin. Ecliptic Howl & Growl, Hastega, Even Rolling Thunder (When Fighting Crawlers it adds a good 5-6 damage per hit, very handy), Spring Water is nice as well.

If a monster does an AoE once, your going to Re-use Titan for another Stoneskin, simply because your personal Stoneskin is down. If you deny this, then that means you WONT have stoneskin on, you'll get hit by whatever AoE a monster does, you'll have to Cure yourself meaning you'll Waste MP.

(Cont)

[Teffie]

4) Whatever damage got though stoneskin is almost never enough to put me into danger and I'm a taru with paper armor. The damage dealt to me also serves to decrease my hate. Not really significant but it's there.

As I said, you make it seem like all your BP's are Earthen Ward. If that's your playstyle, by all means go ahead. I always found that Earthen Ward was best used for DD to not take AoE damage, not meant for spamming. If you don't have Fenrir I guess it is understandable that you'd use Titan so much, but I still don't think it validates you melee'ing.

5) Melee damage does add up. I do about 20 damage per wack with an odd elemental staff proc for another 20 or so.

At 36% tp increments, I do some 4x25 = 100 damage meleeing. It's not a lot but hey, that's 1 less bullet the rng has to shoot so it's not completely worthless. I've managed to get the kill shot as a smn on more than one occassion.

6) Mob tp gain. I was the one that did the initial testing with bst for mob tp gain and frankly after a lot of testing, my conclusion is that it doesn't matter. A smn can't even contribute even enough tp to the mob for 1 additonal ws. It can be argued that 36% might add up with someone else to make it significant but really, I have not noticed any different mob behaviors with me meleeing or w/o.

I'll just refer you to what Russta said since he said it perfectly.

Just remember that you are giving the enemy extra TP for very minimal damage. You might discard this as a mute point but leveling Ninja to 75 really taught me the significance of this.

And YES your TP adds up with someone elses. What happens if your fighting a Damselfly and your little bonus TP lets it use Cursed Sphere right at the end of the fight. Bam, an extra 400 damage to everyone, including yourself. Your Stoneskin will MOST PROBABLY be down (Damselflys usually 100% use a Cursed Sphere atleast once in a fight), putting yourself in dark orange HP, then the Damsel dies. You'll have to use Spring Water to heal everyone back to full, then you wont be able to use Earthen Ward for another minute, all because you think your extra 100 damage is useful.

7) AOE petrify moves. This might seem horribly bad for people but it's actually a funny thing. Not to be confused with single targe petrify which can kill a tank, AOE petrify usually kills the people not hit by the attack since it is a hate reset for everyone that got hit. The blm in the back didn't get hit so he's got to deal with having all the agro to himself.

So.. let me get this straight.... you let the BLM fend off the monster all by himself, while everyone else is petrified...

If you were in the back, you'd be able to help him by Cure Spamming, bouncing hate back and forth between you and the BLM. Letting the mob purposly hit you, so that the BLM can cast Sleep II uninterrupted.

Saying that "the Main Healer getting Petrified is ok" is one of the craziest things I have ever heard. Imagine if you were a WHM melee'ing instead, who would Stona the Tanks/DD. Just because your SMN, it doesnt validate you being allowed to Melee, while a WHM shouldn't. Spring Water also cures Petrify (since SMN's dont have Stona). I used Spring Water ALOT off Cockatrice's in Cape Terrigan, saved us countless times.

8) Barspell casting. It's just faster for me to cast bar spells if I'm standing next to the ppl that need it most than having to run around all the time.

When you cast Earthen Ward for the 1st time on your PT, right when the puller gets back to the Camp. Release your avatar, and Cast your Barspellra and Run back to the Backline.

Its as simple as that.

9) Curga. We know and love DS+curga. We don't like to use it in a party due to hate. We know that taking damage reduces our hate. Avatars don't give smn hate for their curega. So if a smn takes AOE damage, it is reducing their hate, while at the same time curing all the damage away with a bp if they choose to go this route.

I still don't get how you melee'ing relates to DS+Curaga. You can DS+Curaga the same way from the backline as the frontline.

and For the Record, I believe your "Taking Damage Reduces your Enmity" argument only works if the Mob is DIRECTLY targeting you. AoE Damage from the Monster does not reduce your Hate. If you were fighting a Crab, and the Crab used Bubble Shower, your hate should not lower. But if he turned and faced you, smacked you once or twice, then your Enmity should decrease.

This is what I understand from Fighting 90+ Fafnir's. his AoE attacks dont reduce your hate, but if he turns and chomps you 3-4 times, your Enmity should be greatly reduced afterwards.

10) The battle music keeps me awake XD

Engage from the Backlines then. You get the Music, and Out of AoE Range. Swinging for 15 damage is unnecessary and only gives the monster unneeded TP.

11) I should be resting: It takes 15 seconds to get even 1 tic back....
With the lack of Cure IV, and higher regen series, or fast cast support....
Why not just ask the blm to keep curing for the 15 seconds it's gonna take me to get 1 tic back? ...

Ask the BLM to Waste MP because you think 100 Damage and +36% Monster TP is Worthwhile... riiight....


Besides, what about when you get to the level 65's where THF's have Dancing Edge and such. You know that when the Monster gets to 1/2 HP, that the next Skillchain WILL finish it off, So you Sit down when the Monster has 1/2 HP left. Skillchain goes, the Mob dies, you gain lots more MP than normal. If you were Melee'ing, you'd have to disengage, and then sit. That would be "Wasting Time" which you referred to earlier.

Ironically when there's a whm in pt already....

Thats a whole other ballgame. Having a setup where there is both a WHM and SMN, then you can melee all you want. But if you were the main healer, you should be in the backlines like any other Main Healer.

With ninja tanks, it's wierd because you pretty much HAVE to keep standing espically if you are main cure. Despite ninjas taking almost no damage the bulk of the time, they must be kept at full hp as much as possible.

You stand when NIN's are tanking, You sit when your Puller is Pulling. I don't know, you make it sound like your Ninjas are really incompetant and their shadows go down constantly. NIN tanking is a breeze, NIN and SMN's go hand in hand, because Earthen Ward allows a NIN to cast Utsusemi: Ichi, take a hit of 0 Damage and not get interrupted.

I think you reversed the Roles of PLD and NIN. If I am in a PT with a PLD, I am curing tons since every hit on a PLD usually hurts him. He also cures himself, so it makes my life a little easier.

This lets me cast cure III as fast as possible as soon as I see him taking any damage. Usually I have to DS + cure III as soon as the recast timer resets or else he'd die. The time it takes me to stand up might mean that he'd be dead before I get my first cure III off.

What? I don't know where your sitting and where your standing anymore. Your sitting while a NIN is somehow getting destroyed because he has no shadows or something. Why would you be sitting at a time like that?

12) if I'm leaving carby out to melee for damage, I can't rest anyway, might as well melee.

... You actually leave Carbie out to Melee?



and another point, What about if you have a BRD as MP Refreshing? Talk about making his life difficult. You ask everyone to move just so that the BRD can Ballad you and the other mages at the same time, such a hassle over your puny 90 damage.



Sorry if this sounds like I am flaming you XD
I'm really not, It's just I am completely against the idea of any type of Mage-archtype Melee'ing during an EXP PT.
Whitemage should be using Whitemagic, Blackmage should be using Blackmagic. Redmage should be using Black/White Magic, Bards should be Singing, Summoners should be Summoning and Using their WHM Subjob. Leave the Melee'ing to jobs which are MEANT to Melee.

[sudo]

Whats the point of Melee'ing if your not even going to get TP to do some sort of damage... Atleast when RDM's Melee they get in a Spirits Within from time to time, and actually contribute some sort of damage.

I do contribute damage. It's not a whole lot but it does exist. as I've already stated before, It addes up to about 1 shot for the rng. As to not getting TP for a ws, that's never been a huge issue. I believe that the damage is helpful in and of itself.

I don't think the problem here is you casting slower. Its a problem about monsters gaining TP. There was also an argument on the RDM forum about how occasionally Melee'ing RDM's will have a "tendency" to get that 1-hit in before casting a spell. They'll have their Refresh Macro targetted on one of the Mages, but they won't hit it until they have finished their slashing animation. The same could apply to you.

I've done the TP calculations. Yes they do add up. Do I see more ws's because of me meleeing? Not really. Mobs generally do 5-6 ws's in my pt's irregardless if I'm meleeing or not.

Another prime example of this is in skill up parties. Everyone is supposed to melee in there. But again, unless someone is using a kraken club, it's not spam-ga tp moves.

The biggest contributing factor to mob TP use is how fast they die at the end. If they fall below somewhere around 20% hp, they will use Tp at 100%. At 20%+ hp, they are on some sort of timer or program that really limits how much they do their ws's. If you can't kill a mob quickly at the end, which is almost a requirement for high chains, the increases in ws spam is not noticable.

Your the SMN... What could you POSSIBLY have to "React Faster" to?

I'm sorry but even you agree that it is important to pay attention to casting -na spells and erase. If those are not important enough to pay attention to then I give up.

as an aside: Ultrasonics is actually eva down, fenrir buff negates this and erase works too.

Side of the Mob = Sometimes. You'll still be hit by Circular AoE, which the backline mages will not.

I agree with the 2nd poster that some AOE's are best avoided. But a lot of circular AOE's are not that bad. In fact bubble shower helps the whole mob TP argument since I'll hit for zero but still do additional effect damage.

As to the bad AOE's and stoneskin, I personally think that stoneskin spam is a good thing overall for a party. Fenrir buffs last long enough that I can get stoneskin up for the front lines quite easily.

I do not deny that I use stoneskin a lot espically on new moon +/- 40% days. I feel that the +7 int, mnd, chr and +1 acc during these times are wasted on the front lines in lieu for negating damage.

Other times when it's in full moon, yes fenrir damage enhancements will make fights last much shorter and I do use him for those times but again, it's situational since maybe we'll choose to fight some other mobs without AOE's that day but are harder to hit. Fight raptors on full moon. Fight flies on new moon. If you look for it, there are a lot of new lving options now in CoP areas that aren't covered in old exp guides. In the life of a bst, I've lv'ed pretty much everywhere in places where most ppl don't go and there are lot of selection of mobs that alot of folks don't even know about.

As for multiple heavy AOE damage ws's per fight, yes I've seen them. And so has everyone else who has had 5 bomb tosses at them in a single fight or 5 cursed spheres. Those are the exceptions and not the rule to most encounters. A single stoneskin or recast is often enough to last through them unscathed.

For really bad and unlucky times where you do get AOE'ed 5 times in a row. I do stop meleeing and run back and just cure the tank but really, if you get slammed like that in any pt, what difference would it make if your mage got hit with it vs not as long as he survived? The curgas after the fight evens things out.

(cont)

[sudo]

And YES your TP adds up with someone elses. What happens if your fighting a Damselfly and your little bonus TP lets it use Cursed Sphere right at the end of the fight. Bam, an extra 400 damage to everyone, including yourself. Your Stoneskin will MOST PROBABLY be down (Damselflys usually 100% use a Cursed Sphere atleast once in a fight), putting yourself in dark orange HP, then the Damsel dies. You'll have to use Spring Water to heal everyone back to full, then you wont be able to use Earthen Ward for another minute, all because you think your extra 100 damage is useful.

At the end of the fight, why am I using a bp to curega unless for status like virus? Like the whm, I would DS + curga as best I can. Stoneskin goes back up. It works just the same.

As to other bp's being as useful, I agree, most are quite useful. But I have a set pt nin tank. The set pt's rng doesn't need haste.
The set mnk doesn't really need hasting either, it would make him pull agro too many times and he doesn't sub nin so no blink save for aerial armor which is erased from AOE's anyway.

Hence only 1 person needs haste which I leave to the whm or rdm. Rolling thunder's 8 extra damage per hit in my opinion isn't justified for the damage reduction.

Again, the TP arguments are not fully correct because the overall goal of a fight is to make sure the mob dies quickly at the end. The 100% tp spam is critical at the end of a fight which can be solved by having the rng + mnk sc with blm MB'ing for the kill.

Those jobs want to do things this way ayway to solve agro problems since it'd be very hard for even a pld to hold agro vs 700 damage slugshot + 400 renki + 1000 mb damage. Which really means that if you can kill the mob fast at the end. then it doesn't really matter for TP gain.

What? I don't know where your sitting and where your standing anymore. Your sitting while a NIN is somehow getting destroyed because he has no shadows or something. Why would you be sitting at a time like that?

Hence I am standing as long as the fight is lasting. You can't tell when the nin's shadows will go down so you really should be ready to cure them when they need it (hence standing up). I have yet to meet a truely invincible ninja. I know they exist somewhere probably but our's isn't uber rich and we make do.

Yes, we both know the end sc + mb kills mobs. Sure I can rest while that's going down and hope that no one takes any damage in the mean time. And generally they don't.

Does it afford me amazing resting time and MP recovery? No.
Why? Because it takes at least 15 seconds to get the first tic.
Does it take me 15 seconds to "holster my weapon" animation? No. it takes 1 second.

I can't gain even another tic as this is going down. As to the MB + SC time that I could have been resting. That whole series of events takes place inside of 8 seconds usually or the mob won't be dead and I'd have to stand up and cure ppl anyway.

Last I checked, unless I was on the 6th tic or something I won't get any mp back in 9 seconds.

Saying that "the Main Healer getting Petrified is ok" is one of the craziest things I have ever heard. Imagine if you were a WHM melee'ing instead, who would Stona the Tanks/DD. Just because your SMN, it doesnt validate you being allowed to Melee, while a WHM shouldn't. Spring Water also cures Petrify (since SMN's dont have Stona). I used Spring Water ALOT off Cockatrice's in Cape Terrigan, saved us countless times.

This petrification thing only applies to sandtrap basically. As the move is a hate reset. And the AOE petrifications do not last long on the exp mobs we fight. Even if I did try to spring water everyone, they would already be unstoned by the time this kicked in.

The Dynamis scorpion petrification-ga thing isn't related to this.

The single target petrifications do last a while but they don't hate reset. I've never said a whm shouldn't melee. You said that. If a whm can do their job and melee, so be it. As I will skip really bad status AOE's like silence-ga, they should too.

As cockatrices don't have any AOE's cept silence, there's no need for stoneskin so yes, I will use spring water on the tank as it will be necessary since the effect actually lasts long enough for me to get out leviathan and use the bp.

I skip silence AOE mobs usually but I got a large surplus of echo drops from lving alchemy so I don't really mind for the time being.

As to the blm fending for himself in the back. How long exactly are you thinking that everyone stays petrified for sandtrap anyway? And more often than not, even a blm that didn't get hate reset will loose agro after taking 1-2 hits before the rest of the pt recovers and someone provokes off him.

and another point, What about if you have a BRD as MP Refreshing? Talk about making his life difficult. You ask everyone to move just so that the BRD can Ballad you and the other mages at the same time, such a hassle over your puny 90 damage.

I never once claimed that I wouldn't run back to the brd for ballad. It's just my set doesn't have a brd so I've never had the issue. But yes, I would run back and not melee in those times.

Ask the BLM to Waste MP because you think 100 Damage and +36% Monster TP is Worthwhile... riiight....

You misread my post. I only ask for help curing when I'm in the middle of casting a blood pact.

You are a smn. You know it takes us 10 seconds to cast an avatar unless you really want me to leave it out for meleeing which I don't do. though "if" I did I would not be able to rest is still a legitimate argument.

In those 10 seconds, we really can't do anything cept be stuck in our summoning animation. You can't cure so you ask the blm or rdm or whm or whoever to help cure people in case of double criticals and or bad ws move etc.

I tacked on the 5 seconds because you still have to do the "activate bp" animation and the "release animation". You can cure as soon as the avatar is out of course but then you are wasting MP leaving the avatar out and not giving it a command.

This is what I understand from Fighting 90+ Fafnir's. his AoE attacks dont reduce your hate, but if he turns and chomps you 3-4 times, your Enmity should be greatly reduced afterwards.

Hrm... interesting. I think I may be wrong in this point then. Guess we all learn something new everyday XD


So in conclusion
Not all mobs are the same. Not all parties are the same. I say there is a role for smn or anyone to melee in an exp party. It is wrong to always melee, I can agree with that.

But to say never melee because it is so incredibly wrong in every way, I say is also incorrect.

Though all the literally now years of lving bst, I know for a fact that even solo vs heavy AOE prone mobs, I still have to melee to get 100% tp to kill the mob off. There is a way to do this despite having less armor, less ability to cure, few and not as effective buffs, and lacking other goodies as tanks's job abilities and sadly to say even whm's armor plating.

(I know this for sure, I asked my LS whm, she had 30 more defence than I do at lv 75 in her regular armors. the brd in god armor had literally 100 more defence than I did)

It's not a very far stretch of the imagination to see how to work in smn meleeing in places where others believe it to be irrational.

I think my points are valid as are those of Teffie, Russta, and Tirrock. Each has contributed to the discussion what each feels is the right thing to do. I probably won't change many minds with my points nor am I totally convinced that I should stop meleeing. But I hope everyone learned something new which is what we all should work towards.

[geno3302]

Re: Meleeing Smn's

I've found, through out all my levels, i almost always out dmg my avatars in PTs. Recently that gap has been closing. as a lv 61 SMN i can do about 500 dmg a fight +100 dmg WS (I'm looking forward to Full swing i tested it solo with Staff belt and it seems 3-4 times as strong as Sunburst). I do my job as a summoner, with little to no down time, I also do what people consider to be my "job" (WHM). From all i've seen in a PT SMN=DRG almost point for point in dmg my WS=the Wyverns WS and my avatars BP=the DRG WS and attack speed on weapons are the same with avatar out for whole fight dmg is about the same, this is all assumeing you get lucky and are in a PT where you can keep avatar out for the whole fight. I have no problem with any mage meleeing so long as they do what the PT needs and they dont die: you get hate you stop meleeing, you add down time you stop, you die you stop, ect..

Glad to see I'm not alone^^

[Icemage]

Re: Meleeing Smn's

For really bad and unlucky times where you do get AOE'ed 5 times in a row. I do stop meleeing and run back and just cure the tank but really, if you get slammed like that in any pt, what difference would it make if your mage got hit with it vs not as long as he survived? The curgas after the fight evens things out.

There is a huge difference here. If you're in AoE range and taking damage mid-fight and you get one of those crazy AoE spams, you're racking up way more unnecessary enmity by curing yourself with Curaga (which already has a sizable enmity factor all on its own) along with your party members. Under those circumstances, you generally can't just heal the tank, you're "probably" pulling out the big guns with respect to Divine Seal, Curaga II, or whatnot.

Considering SMN are fragile even by mage standards, this IS a survival issue, since if all your tank/melees are in the red, you're forced to do AoE cures (and no Healing Ruby II/Spring Water don't count, you generally don't have time to pull those off under this sort of crisis situation).

Meleeing crabs just annoys the RDM in your party by making it more likely to spam a defensive buff that has to be dispelled, and is probably pretty safe, if still inadvisable. Meleeing flies is nothing short of suicidal.


Icemage

[tazirai]

Re: Meleeing Smn's

Whats the point of Melee'ing if your not even going to get TP to do some sort of damage... Atleast when RDM's Melee they get in a Spirits Within from time to time, and actually contribute some sort of damage.


Your the SMN... What could you POSSIBLY have to "React Faster" to?

All you take care of is Cure's and Status Cure's.

You'd hate me then hahaha!! I melee from time to time in PT. But only if theres no bard, i dont want to make his life living hell.

As far as reacting faster theres a plethora of things you can react to as Summoner, if youarent the sit back and heal type. Reacting to enemy AOE or specials can help if you are closer to the mons. But it depends on the mons. Monsters that bypass defense suck and yes you can make a difference of a few seconds if youare closer. Not always but sometimes.

Im sorry not all Summoners simply cure and remove status and not all summoners sub whm i juggle what to rdm depending on PT make up and monsters we fight.
Seriously not all Summoners are gimped white mages . We can do other things you know ^^.

When I join a PT Im usually the puller/Healer/buffer and aggro control. Sometimes I MB also.

... You actually leave Carbie out to Melee?



Sorry if this sounds like I am flaming you XD
I'm really not, It's just I am completely against the idea of any type of Mage-archtype Melee'ing during an EXP PT.
Whitemage should be using Whitemagic, Blackmage should be using Blackmagic. Redmage should be using Black/White Magic, Bards should be Singing, Summoners should be Summoning and Using their WHM Subjob. Leave the Melee'ing to jobs which are MEANT to Melee.

I agree with the melee thing but not all Summoners are as you say, yes the scared and the cookie ones are. but not all of us hehe.
Whitemage should also use blm to get MP and help with debuff.
Same for Blackmage with white magic.
Red Mage can use whatever support abilities their subs are. they should particularily be using Magic to weaken and slow the mob to make it squishy.
Summoners are as you say, but they can use rdm , just not black mage unless its for a specific BC fight. Which i've done before.

As for the rat...
Yes in alot of PT's now I leave my rat out in melee range with the other attackers. hes VERY useful out there. I guess since I levelled Summoner with just carbuncle When Summoner was first released I'm able to use him better than most who didnt. Carbuncle is AMAZING in leveling PT's. From helping weaken a monster, to target and AOE healing, To keeping hate off you . To even Pinpoint aggro control in case of a Link. Hes also great when you have a light renkei he can MB every 46 secs to 1 min. And the fact that hes free is great.

People really dont use Carbuncle well, in leiu of fenrir, its a shame really.
After I got the other avatars the month they were released I fell into the "newness" trap. But i realize Avatars and Summoners are more than their one minute BP and Sub job.

Wake up folks ^^

Double Post Edited:
BTW Im not picking on you teffie. it sjust you had the better quotes to use ^^

I wanted to pull something off Icemage. but I couldnt hehe.

[Icemage]

Re: Meleeing Smn's

I have a lot of respect for you Tazirai, but why use /RDM instead of /WHM? Elemental nuke magic bursts will hit for very low damage, debuffs will almost never land, even on elements that XP-worth enemies are weak to.

Aside from Dispel (which does have some tactical use even when used as a sub on a job that doesn't have any intrinsic Enfeebling Magic - vs. Crawlers for instance, which are weak to Dark magic and love throwing up Coccoon), SMN don't get any benefits from /RDM over /WHM other than 2 Fast Cast traits that don't help their avatars, a worthless Resist Petrify trait, a handful of pointless nukes, and a bunch of enfeebles that won't stick.

I tried /RDM sub on Bard for a while, and while it's fun to be casting faster, it really wasn't worth the loss in flexibility. Nukes never did any appreciable damage, enfeebles almost never stuck, and if they did they'd wear off almost instantly.

----

I don't really have an issue with SMN that melee intelligently. SMN have good Staff skill, and can even pull off self-SC sometimes with their avatar (especially as they're the only mage that can basically gear up in all melee/accuracy gear and not have it affect their magical performance in the slightest). Basically only if it puts the SMN in harm's way for AoE does it ever really become a major issue.

Post-51 when you're swapping staves like Elton John changes glasses, it's not as effective, but can still be done. As long as it isn't endangering yourself or the party, it's not totally inadvisable, but just remember that elemental staves aren't exactly the kings of damage...


Icemage