Why are people so mad at the level 20 Avatar Quests?

[Peanut_Midgard]

Originally posted by Oceanfish
if you think levelling a job to 20 (doable in a day) and buying a couple yagudo drinks (you can avoid getting aggro using them, fyi) to get avatars with 0 risk of experience loss or having to travel to the cloisters is justified, then that's fine.

Do you honestly think for totally n00bs and bad players they can easily win the fight with just some drinks? Do you not trust that you have much more skill than the "level to 20 in a day" noobs?

Don't forget the 30 levels required to unlock SMN, PLUS the time still needed to hunt for the RUBY. I was really unlucky and it took me over 20 hours to get my ruby.

Also fame, you still need a good amount of fame. By some accounts they are maybe one rank lower than the regular one. However, that still puts fame level to at least rank 5 or 6 for the summons. We all know how much money we blew on getting the fame in ALL fame groups. Tenshodo fame anyone?

It's not just a matter of farming 30k for some potions and drinks for the fight. There's huge amount of effort involved beforehand to even get to that point.

Oh and don't forget that you need those drinks for EVERY SINGLE prime. If you so much as slip and died, you need to FARM AGAIN. Looking around on all the message boards, only a handful of people say they are cakewalk, while most others die several times before they can get the strategy nailed down.

One can argue it's easier than before, but one cannot say it's a cakewalk to get all the summons, and discounting all the effort required outside of the fights.

It's also rather arrogant to have the idea of "keeping the bad players in other jobs". Everybody learn how to play while leveling up. In EVERY SINGLE job there are bad players, even ones who get all the way up to level 60. If it was really intended for SMN to have a level 60 pre-req, the quest wouldn't be able to be unlocked at level 30. Think about it. For once SMN is on a somewhat level playing field with the other advanced jobs as far as playability goes. People get to party with SMN more often, learn their strength and weakness, and learn what they can do in parties. It's a good thinig!

I know it hurts to see bad players playing your job, but it's the fact of life for every job in the game. The existing method sure weeds out some bad players, but also weed out the ones that don't have as much time to level another job to 60 first, but are still good players. Now these new quests do is open the door to these players. I honestly think it does more good than harm. Think about these players, and stop being selfish or how this will damage the reputation of your job. If you have taken a job to level 60, you know it's your NAME that your reputation is linked to. Even right now, do you expect people to think you are a good player automatically simply because you have all the summons?

Afriad of SMN with bad combos? Those won't go far beyound level 30! It's the same with other jobs! They get a bad reputation to their NAME!

Look at the big picture people, and stop bickering from the bottom of a well.

[ruffrydasean]

/em cues the simpsons

Sting: There's a hole in my heart
As deep as a well
For that poor little boy,
Who's stuck halfway to Hell...

Sideshow Mel: Though we can't get him out,
We'll do the next best thing...

McBain: We go on TV
And sing, sing, sing!

All: And we're sending our love down the well...

Krusty: All the way down!

All: We're sending our love down the well...

Krusty: Down that well!

[Deedlit]

I don't see why people are worried about crappy SMNs - there were crappy SMNs around before this patch. How do you fix that problem? Make note of their crappyness earlier on, if you feel like giving them advice and they are willing to listen, then good. If they act like arrogant n00bs, then write their name down and don't PT with them.

I helped someone out once with the Genkei items - a friend on my LS, though she has a 5-person PT with her, and I was just around for curing and buffing (didn't want them to miss out on the nice exp you can get off liches at 49). I find out a DRK is in their PT, who was an arrogant person when I PTed with him back then, never casted abs-spells, and was basically a leech - god forbid you actually ASK him to do his job, cause you will get an elistist attitude, because he owned an emp hairpin. Shame the rest of his gear was crap.

I told the entire PT that I would not be assisting them with so-and-so in the PT, because I don't believe in helping shitty players get through genkei - they found a rep for him in like 5 seconds. I think the guy is still capped at 50 - hopefully it will start to sink in as to why. The same can happen to crappy SMNs - just know who they are, and don't PT with or help them. You do learn eventually, or quit.

[Malamasala]

Acording to many on these boards the purpose of FFXI seem to be the following:

1) Form the perfect XP group. If anything is wrong, leave it and try again.
2)level level level level level level.
2b)learn how to play for example beastmaster, by playing as whm and partying with 5 blackmages. It works, all the highlevelers say you learn all the jobs with partying, needless of party setup.
3)get avatars.
4)don't use summoner. It's not a needed job, select a real job.
5)Pick a new job.
6)go to 1.


Oh wait, you wanted to play some for fun? Sorry, FFXI is only about getting all jobs to the current cap. Anyone not doing this as fast as they can is a noob and should be blacklisted. Because really, do you want to see any combination that don't make sure you get 250 exp on those chains? Because you need those exp to reach the current cap with all your jobs.
Well, you know what? By only making perfect parties, what you really do is pick the easy way out. Someday you could try to make it all a bit challangeing with playing with a player not using a job combo *approved of by the NA population*.


All those who are complaining are, in my eyes, the ones who should be blacklisted. Who made the law that anyone that don't net your party 200+ experience a battle is not worthy playing? If numbers is all you care for, go buy a calculator.


Seriously, I haven't seen so many dumb posts around this place EVER. (And I'm getting tired to almost always end up having to post an angry post )

[sudo]

You know I really like how ppl assume that you can learn all the jobs just by pting.

I've pt'ed with monks as a whm till 43. I didn't learn squat about the job or what made it tic. I did learn a whole lot about what mages should do though.

I played a thf. I learned what melees should and sometimes have to do to get things to work. And when it does, hell, even the mnk who I never bothered to talk to as a whm, I must not consult to figure out if he can tank like 5 hits at lv 33 cause I tricked on him.

However, I didn't learn how hard it was to work with a thf till I had to tank as a nin. I didn't realize how hard it was to pull off all my macros, time utsemni, throw things, debuff, and provoke and stand in the proper way for a thf to function.

And dang it, learning how to play a bard was the only way I really got some appreciation for how to play as a bard and how to time things correctly.

Lastly, I'm going to lv bst and boy, I'm getting awefully good at spinning that camera around and measuring agro vs life of mob I need to kill to get that 120 exp while balancing pet death. Probably the most nerve racking job IMO.

But all these experiences helped me understand a general feel for the big broad categories of jobs. Unless you've tried them all, you can't say how a particular job should be played. Heck, if the rdm/nin can get all their debuffs on, and keep me refreshed and throw on en and go dual wield for 20 damage while helping to support heal, more power to them I say.

Currently lving smn. lv 13 so far and I've SOLOED every single exp as this job with only carbuncle cause I got nothing else. I am learning how to solo as a smn so I can be more prepared for what the lv 20 fight is all about. Besides, playing bst has really taught me how to solo well. I can still take down even matches solo even as a smn but man, there was some steep learning curve.

Every job plays differently and every job has craptastic ppl playing it even at higher lvs. Go read the thf forums to learn that even lv 55 ppl don't know how to set up a fudiyama for a thf. I have pt'ed with gimped out smn with all the summons too by the way.

Guy had all the summons and boy did they like to keep them all out as show. Subbed blm to get more MP to keep summons out longer. He did drink juice but only used smn to attack and sometimes try to nuke cause "he wanted to do some damage as a smn" This was lv 18 by the way so I guess some newbieness was involved but come on, he had freaking feninr, how noob can you be??

So even having all the summons doesn't necessarily mean you are a good smn. You might have been that pld/war that tanked the summons and never got around to learning all the job aspects of all the different groups.

Being high lv doesn't automatically make you king of all jobs.

[Rigsta]

Originally posted by Xien
However, the fight is done solo. It does nothing to teach them how to play summoner in a party. One thing I liked about the lvl requirement for the avatars before was that it forced (most of them) to go through the 40-60's. People learn in these lvls what works and doesn't work....

I'm just afraid we'll be seeing a lot more odd combinations. Smn/blm. Smn/war. Smn/Thf. And if my LS mates have partied with a Drk/RDM why not Drk/SMN? Don't get me wrong, newbies != bad player. But seeing how many RDM/NINs and RDM/THFs there are on my server makes me shudder what to expect.

I guess before, when I invited a summoner into a PT (40+) who had all the avatars, I knew he/she would have a certain standard. Most of them knew their role in a PT and most of the time, knew when and what pacts to use. These are the ones spending hours upon hours in rolanberry fields summoning and unsummoning. These are the ones that make XP flow faster and make you respect the summoner class.

Now that's an interesting post. Firstly, none of the advanced job quests teach us how to use that job in a party... we find that out by reading and playing the job itself.

Secondly, RDM/NIN is a perfectly valid combination. They do effective en-spell damage with a pair of light swords or daggers, and they can also cast haste on themselves to further increase their damage. Not to mention the TP they gain from the fast hits, their MP is constantly on refresh, and they can still nuke/cure/enfeeble just as well as a RDM/BLM. A less-popular job choice (probably because it requires imagination?) but a fun and effective one nonetheless. Or is it less suited to the job of refresh-slave than you'd like?


People seem to love these established job combination standards. I know lvl50 players who still think that all WAR can and should do is tank, and they don't even bother to invite a G Axe WAR when they have a damage slot open. It's kind of sad that people think they should be able to somehow determine a player's skill just from what they can see in the search window. "Good God! A non-standard job combo! I must add that player to my blacklist immediately!"


I wish people would be more open-minded, there really is nothing bad about the new lvl20 avatar fights. The only reasons to fear them are paranoia, jealousy, bitterness. I saw a lvl20 SMN with her newly-acquired Garuda in S Gusta today and she was pleased as punch with her acheivment. I talked to her a bit and she was also dead chuffed that she could start her dream job without levelling WHM to 60. Who are we to deny that to people?

If you're scared that this change will open the job up to more people who really want to play it (yet not play another job to the AF stages) and we'll see more SMNs as a result, then I hope your fears will come true. I'll be one of those SMNs.

DRKs who stack last resort, soul eater, and berserk.

This can be a perfectly valid tactic. Done properly it's not a death sentence/hate management nightmare.

[AtraposBLM]

Originally posted by Rigsta

Secondly, RDM/NIN is a perfectly valid combination. They do effective en-spell damage with a pair of light swords or daggers, and they can also cast haste on themselves to further increase their damage. Not to mention the TP they gain from the fast hits, their MP is constantly on refresh, and they can still nuke/cure/enfeeble just as well as a RDM/BLM. A less-popular job choice (probably because it requires imagination?) but a fun and effective one nonetheless. Or is it less suited to the job of refresh-slave than you'd like?

Wrong. Go read the rdm forums, there's flat out PROOF that /nin is a USELESS sub for rdm. Every "advantage" that it offers is countered, and then some. I'll give you the highlights:
"Benefits" Of using /nin:
+Dual Wield allows you to use 2 +int/mnd clubs
-Dual Wield does *not* infact, increase your dps significantly. Why? Well, becase you don't get any of the higher level dual wields, so your delay is in fact twice that of a single wielder. Meaning, you do 2 attacks at once, single wield does one attack. Single wield attacks again. You do 2 attacks, single wielder does one attack. So no, it doesn't get you TP faster, and no, your 5-10 damage en-spells aren't infact helping the party kill faster
+Ninjitsu Debuffs letting your (and blm) nukes do more damage
-They will never land on any exp mob...ever.
+Dual Wielding 2 clubs gives you more int/mnd than a single wielder
-Due to your lower base int/mnd, this benefit at lv50ish actually comes out to be about 3 int in the favor of the rdm/nin. Whoopdee doo.

What you lose by subbing /nin over /blm, /whm, or even /smn:
/blm:
+Conserve MP. Artificially raises your usable mp by decreasing spell costs randomly over time. Hard to notice unless you use /blm and then switch to another job.
+Aspir/Drain - nothing is sweet than using elemental seal + drain after convert. Less mp than a cure II, restores lots of health, and does damage. Aspir is also great on crabs, seeing as they're tough to kill, so getting free mp on them is sweet
+Elemental Debuffs - Shock = your friend. If your blm isn't casting it...now you can
+Warp - not always going to be partied with a blm after lv40...feel like walking home from Boyahda/Kuftal tunnel? Have fun. Or carry instant warp
+Escape - chainspell + escape has saved many parties of mine where I can't cast escape due to the fact that getting whacked for 200 damage criticals tend to interrupt my casting.
+Elemental Seal - oh no, an add. Resisted your sleeps. Elemental Seal saves the day. Also good for drain/aspir's
**Edit** I forgot to note that you also lose about 73 mp as a taru by subbing nin instead of blm. I don't know the numbers for /whm or /smn, but assume something similiar. This number will just increase as you gain levels.

/whm:
+Divine Seal. If you don't know the glory of this...you shouldn't bother talking.
+Curaga's - great things to toss around when you're nearing your convert timer and you want to save the whm some mp.
+Bar-ra spells - great things. The beauty of them doesn't become apparent until later in the game though.
+Na line of spells - when you fight things like torama's (lower 60's) that SPAM silence and paralyze abilties, hit like trucks, AND have fast attacks, you're gonna find your whm has to work real hard (unless you have a handy blm/whm around like me ) to keep the pld alive, unsilenced, and unparalyzed. You can help their job out a TON just by casting paralyna so they only have to worry about silena.

/smn:
+Most +mp of any sub
+Auto-refresh. Minor point, but valid nonetheless
+Blinkga - a whm named Jazy showed me the beauty of this today. Cast it every minute to reduce downtime a ton (especially in parties with a thf, as non-pld's tend to take some hits in those parties).
+The electric squirrel. I don't have much for this one, but it's handy to be able to pull without links every once and a while for your group

There. That's 3 jobs you can choose from in order to avoid being cookie-cutter, all worthy choices, depending on what you want to do.

Cookie-cutter is used to refer to job combo's all the time, but that's not the case. I've seen so many cookie-cutter rdm/nin's that it's not even funny. What do I mean? As soon as one joins the party, I can tell you exactly what they're going to do. They're going to cast 1-2 debuffs (at most), and then cast en-whatever and melee the rest of the fight, and MAYBE get off a ws towards the end. You know how awesome that is? Precisely not.

Choosing a weird sub *can* work. Like choosing /brd for rdm or whm. It'll work, but only if you take advantage of what that job offers you. If you never use what it offers, or what it offers doesn't enhance what you're doing in your party, then the subjob is pointless.




After that huge rant, I have to say that I'm thrilled that SE added these quests. I think the number one reason people think summoners are nothing but gimped whm's is the fact that not enough people play them how they're supposed to be played, and not enough people party with them. In all my exping, I've only partied with a summoner *once*. Every other job I've partied with dozens of times, but summoner's are even rarer than bards. That summoner in particular was just a cure tank, but today I partied with a whm/smn who showed me just how powerful *just* blinkga could be. I really want to see how powerful a smn/whm could be. Unfortunately, I don't have that option, seeing as there are precisely *zero* summoners in my level range atm on midgardsormr (aside from one JP who refuses to answer my tells m(_ _)m). Yeah, we'll see more newbies playing summoner, but we'll see more good players as well. Overall, simply increasing the number of people playing summoner is a good thing. Why? It's a damn powerful job, it's cool, and god dammit, I want to party with the moon puppy!

[Cara Zeltina]

I've wanted to be a SMN since I started, I worked my rear off for the fame when someone said they'd take me for it.. They didn't. So I ended up leveling other jobs, and ended up BORED out of my mind with the game.
(Mind you, I never intended for someone to take me, they offered, then blew me off.)
Getting to level 60 with me is a huge chore when I can never focus on any one job.
(especially when it's boring to do)
And getting help, psshh.. I don't ASK for help often.
And if I do I'm very polite about it, and I make certain to repay the debt.

What am I getting at here? That not everyone who can use this to get the Avatars are flaming idiots.
And not everyone will be inexperienced without a level 60 job.. Trust me, I know what i'm doing in a party.
Be it tanking, be it healing, be it nuking or enfeebling.. Whatever it is, i've done it, and no one has complained.
I intend to be a SMN, a good SMN. And i'm sure a lot of other people do too.
You have to take the bad, with the good sometimes.

And honestly, SMN is.. *gasps* A Support Job!
Why should a Support Job be level 60+ only? Maybe if SMN did crazy damage or something, i'd look at this differently.. But they don't. They are support, and it shouldn't take so much effort in becoming a decent one. So many people complain about Carbuncle only SMN's.. And now theres a fix for this, and everyone is upset..
..Right....

The battles aren't that easy, i'm about to try them out for myself, so i'll come back with my own opinion on them later.. But basically, I don't see any horrible player getting the Avatars anytime soon.
Heck, even if they do, you think they'll stay SMN? The job is very different than the average fool would think.
As for it being "special" and an "end game thing" that's just being silly..
If you look at it like that, you're probably just bitter.
And yes, I can understand how annoying it must be for someone to level a job up needlessly and now not having had to.. Trust me, I know how annoying it is to level some job you don't even like for this.
I think this should have been there all along, but as it is, it wasn't. And some people need to get over that.

And let us not forget the seventh Avatar of them all...
For all those who are STILL upset about this, for whatever reason.. Fenrir is still true to the old way.
You need to do the level 60 battles, AND get a job to 70+ in order to fight Fenrir.
And from what i've seen and heard, Fenrir is better than all the other Primes combined.

As for what it all boils down to..
Don't worry about the bad players, don't complain about it either, you're just annoying those of us who will do a good job. Like I said earlier.. You have to take the bad, with the good sometimes.

[Oompa]

Originally posted by Deedlit
I don't see why people are worried about crappy SMNs - there were crappy SMNs around before this patch. How do you fix that problem? Make note of their crappyness earlier on, if you feel like giving them advice and they are willing to listen, then good. If they act like arrogant n00bs, then write their name down and don't PT with them.

I helped someone out once with the Genkei items - a friend on my LS, though she has a 5-person PT with her, and I was just around for curing and buffing (didn't want them to miss out on the nice exp you can get off liches at 49). I find out a DRK is in their PT, who was an arrogant person when I PTed with him back then, never casted abs-spells, and was basically a leech - god forbid you actually ASK him to do his job, cause you will get an elistist attitude, because he owned an emp hairpin. Shame the rest of his gear was crap.

I told the entire PT that I would not be assisting them with so-and-so in the PT, because I don't believe in helping shitty players get through genkei - they found a rep for him in like 5 seconds. I think the guy is still capped at 50 - hopefully it will start to sink in as to why. The same can happen to crappy SMNs - just know who they are, and don't PT with or help them. You do learn eventually, or quit.

What a terribly immature act. "If you don't play my way, I won't help you or the people with you". Sure he may have been a jerk to you but judging by your past history on these forums I'd have to side with him that he was antagonized and only acting defensively. If everyone acted this way I'm sure you'd still be stuck at level 38 with no avatars with your level 75 RDM buddy laughing at you on some such forum...

Do not treat people poorly, it will come back to bite you someday.




**I apologize for "hijacking" the thread. Attempting to get back on topic:

I strongly agree with SE's decision to create these new quests. Everyone complains that SMN is an underused and hard to obtain job. Now it's not, and those same people complain again. I leveled to 61 until I went back to SMN and I'm happy to say that I earned my avatars the old way. I'm even happier to see new SMNs be able to fulfill their dreams in the game to the fullest at an early level and not have to ride on the coattails on their friends and leech or level to 50+ and get them the old fashion way. Either way it makes our job more "popular".

Very very pleased.

[ruffrydasean]

Originally posted by Rigsta

"Good God! A non-standard job combo! I must add that player to my blacklist immediately!"

:spin: XD *insert 1000 Laugh emotes*

[FantasiaHume]

I plan to attempt to obtain the avatars through the level 20 battles, mostly because I don't want to have to risk other people's XP for my avatars. I have been partying with a currently level 53 smn on my main jobs (being either Bard or RDM), and I just can't wait to be able to provide the kind of support that he provides. I have played many levels of support job (read my sig). But just because I try the level 20 versions, does that mean I'm going to be a bad summoner? Just because I want to do them myself, and not ask my level 65+ friends to let me leech off of them? (I hate asking for help on anything, because I don't like having friends risk their xp or spend their time on my wants, even though help is needed on many things and I have some really good lvl 70+ friends who are often willing to help). I also plan to level my SMN alongside my SMN friend who is now interested in being PLD (he's very eager for me to go get my avatars now).

My main point is this: Don't judge all the SMN's who obtain avatars through the level 20 battles the same way. If they suck as a smn, kick them from party and find a new one. Problem solved ^^b If you party with me while I am SMN and you think I suck, tell me! If my 140+ levels of support job are not enough to get me to at least level 50 as SMN, how is getting 60 levels of any job going to make me a better SMN?

Of course, if I fail to obtain the summons through the trial size battles, I'll just finish getting to level 60 on RDM and/or Bard and try it the old fashioned way At this stage, I almost think the old fashioned way sounds easier.....

[Mantronic]

Originally posted by Deedlit
I don't see why people are worried about crappy SMNs - there were crappy SMNs around before this patch. How do you fix that problem? Make note of their crappyness earlier on, if you feel like giving them advice and they are willing to listen, then good. If they act like arrogant n00bs, then write their name down and don't PT with them.

I helped someone out once with the Genkei items - a friend on my LS, though she has a 5-person PT with her, and I was just around for curing and buffing (didn't want them to miss out on the nice exp you can get off liches at 49). I find out a DRK is in their PT, who was an arrogant person when I PTed with him back then, never casted abs-spells, and was basically a leech - god forbid you actually ASK him to do his job, cause you will get an elistist attitude, because he owned an emp hairpin. Shame the rest of his gear was crap.

I told the entire PT that I would not be assisting them with so-and-so in the PT, because I don't believe in helping shitty players get through genkei - they found a rep for him in like 5 seconds. I think the guy is still capped at 50 - hopefully it will start to sink in as to why. The same can happen to crappy SMNs - just know who they are, and don't PT with or help them. You do learn eventually, or quit.

i will back up deed that there is a collection of NA players on leviathan that do not deserve any help doing quest. also i will be getting summoner up to lvl 20 to get the summons.


and for those that did it the hard way pls dont think those of us that do it at 20 wont have to do it to get fenrir. so either way you will have to make the trip to fight the avatars 60+ but at least this way you dont have carbuncle smn lvl 40+ running around.

and for those taht think there arent bad players playing smn job i personally know of many blm's that have thought smn was a great sub for blm and do blm/smn but for party play that combo really sucks!!!! i have come across a few lvl 55+ blms with smn sub thinking it is great but they have no clue what a good party is all about and these guys are creeping up to 60 now.

and for the record i think rdm is one of those jobs that can get away with subing pretty much what ever depending on the party setup but there is an abundance of rdm's that dont belong playing final fantasy and alot of these rdm get to 60 pretty fast and unlock smn so honestly its not the job the person plays its the person that plays the job that counts now a smn can be viable at 20.....


the quest are still the best thing SE has done for this job from the video i saw of the fight you cant just click attack and wait 9 minutes to beat it .

[Rigsta]

Originally posted by AtraposBLM


Wrong. Go read the rdm forums, there's flat out PROOF that /nin is a USELESS sub for rdm. Every "advantage" that it offers is countered, and then some. I'll give you the highlights:


...etc. etc. etc...

Choosing a weird sub *can* work. Like choosing /brd for rdm or whm. It'll work, but only if you take advantage of what that job offers you. If you never use what it offers, or what it offers doesn't enhance what you're doing in your party, then the subjob is pointless.

Fair enough, I stand corrected. My post was based on partying with a RDM/NIN who was a doing a good job of meeling + debuff/refresh and dammit it was fun to watch the ens kicking in twice before his next cast. It was a refreshing change to the standard combos. I'd invite him again if I saw him

I know all the rest of what you posted from playing WHM/BLM I'm missing Erase and teleport-vahzl though >_>

Although my post was a cross between actual points and 5am-rant (bit of a crap post tbh), I do still wish that people would try out some different job combinations. For instance, something I never thought would be any good: DRG/BRD. To have an extra song going was great ^^

[Cara Zeltina]

Okay, i've tried a few of these fights out for myself, and heres my opinion on them..
They are hard, but not horribly difficult. I'd say the average good player will die at least once to these guys..
But after that, things will probably get easier, as you can beat them all just about the same way..

Another thing, which everyone has gotten wrong, is fame.. You DO NOT need fame.
Personally, I don't like this, and I can see why some people are complaining..
This in my opinion, isn't fair, and it's making things a little too "up front" if you ask me..

Next, no exp loss. I have mixed emotions about this one, i'm glad, and yet unhappy.
Glad because I don't have to worry about it, unhappy because it doesn't help weed out the bad players..

A positive side to all this, however, is whether you win or lose, it takes Two Vana'diel weeks before you can try again. So in other words, if you screw up, you better be patient enough to wait in order to try again.
Also, if you win, you're dropped off at the Cloister, no free ride back home.
If you "oops" forgot a Warp Scroll, you're screwed.

Overall, i'd say my original opinion stands. These quests are good to have.
But, adding to that, they haven't delivered the quests too well, and there are some aspects that need changing..
So, some complaints are justified, but not all.

[thefallenranger]

the whole lvl up to 60 to kill an avatar just to get the summons for the summoner was kind of dumb. was a good idea if they spread them out into llower lvl to mid lvl dungeons, maybe a couple high lvl dungeon avatars might be cool. but its sort of like. ok im going to play a RDM, but you cant' cast refreash or use convert or use any elemental based nuke other than stone 1 until lvl 60 and then might have a chance to beat the mob that will allow you to cast that spell or use that ability and the mob needs a lvl 70ish pld to tank it and a full group etc then you have to spend a few hours in each town getting your fame up to near max. then and only then you will be allowed to cast fire series, water series, refreash, and JA convert...because that would be fair and balanced?


me personally i'll wait till i get fenrir then play around on my summoner, and i stress the word "play". summoner is cool, its just not my cup of tea. however the mini summon battles are quite fun.