Summoner Fix Petition

[Shiia]

Also remember that pre Zilard, the lvl cap was 60. Already there were alot of JP people at lvl 60, hence they made the avatar fights 60+. Its quite logical since all the closiers where the avatars are located the mobs around are 60+. They have not changed the lvl required to obtain the summoner since all the other advanced jobs were setted to 30, feels very wierd if only one advance job is 60 no?

My whm friend wants to be a summoner. He wants all the summoner aswell. He asked around people on how to obtain and such. He already have max fame on all kingdome except Norg. And now he is working on his Whm to 60. He is now 50, 10 more to go. His sumoner is lvl 1. He has his blm sub to 37. Sure he could have asked around some other people, but all the summoners he asked said its better to start at 60. So now here he is working his whm till 60. (although he said he might get to 75 for the heck of it)

Summoner avatars are very hard considering the summoner can be obtained at lvl 30 I know... But since Summoner is a Zilard expantion job, its quite logical to think they setted the lvl as they are now. US release came with both the original game and expantion at the same time. So no one is at lvl 60 for starters anyway. Probably here it comes to some new commers not understanding why the avatar fight requires high lvls.

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Kirara
maybe it's just the way how game is made,
you make it sound like getting to level 30 and complete the quest give you all the right in the world to play smn with it's full ability

You mean like it does for PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, NIN, and DRG? Well, yes. Any abilities of those jobs that you don't get for free just by leveling them, you can reasonably get at the appropriate level of those jobs. That's how advanced jobs *work*. Except for the current state of Summoner, hence the problem.

summoner is not weak when played at full potential with the right party set up, but before reaching there, if bitching is all you going to do, you are not going to ever get there.

Level 1 abilities shouldn't require a level 60 character to obtain. The problems with that kind of setup are obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

If all the prime pacts required level 60 SMN to learn, and Fenrir required level 75, you'd see a lot fewer people dismissing the weakness of elemental spirits as unimportant.


How would you feel if the scroll of, say, Mage's Ballad I was EX and only available as a drop off a level 70 HNM in Uggalepih, Zvahl, etc.? Would it be OK to cripple bards the same way summoners are crippled now?

Basically, SE is sending mixed messages on what they want the level requirement for SMN to be. The actual requirement is only 30 like all other advanced jobs, but if you "have to" have the primes, it's 55-60; if you have to have Fenrir, it's 70-75.

[Deedlit]

Karinya put it the best. No other job requires you to be level 75 with another job in order to get a level 1 spell. For most people, getting to 75 with one job is hard enough - I mean really, I want to do my genkei's with my summoner, not with my white mage. I don't want to do white mage AF - in fact, I'm getting kinda bored of the whole WHM job as it is, and I only use it when I need to teleport somewhere.

My whm friend wants to be a summoner. He wants all the summoner aswell. He asked around people on how to obtain and such. He already have max fame on all kingdome except Norg. And now he is working on his Whm to 60. He is now 50, 10 more to go. His sumoner is lvl 1. He has his blm sub to 37. Sure he could have asked around some other people, but all the summoners he asked said its better to start at 60. So now here he is working his whm till 60. (although he said he might get to 75 for the heck of it)

Well guess what? He's gonna HAVE to get to 75 in order to get Fenrir - from what I am told, he is no walk in the park, and the most useful summon in the game. I mean, great if he's enjoying playing WHM, and had no problem devoting the time/cash needed for AF and genkeis. To me, it is a waste of time, I have enough RL time constraints as it is to devote time to playing a job I hate.

[Kirara]

this is the way the game is set, complaing HERE won't change a thing, it wastes your time (just like i am wasting mine argues with you)
if you feel like you don't have enough time to play it, i guess it's best for you not to play?

[Navia]

Off topic, Kirara why did you have to put Zilart mission spoiler in your sig about eald'narche dying (>_<). Thats just mean ; ;

[Kirara]

thankyou for amplify the spoiler effect orz

[Mikeb]

Getting the avatars is as it should be. Summoning magic is SUPPOSED to be FORBIDDEN magic (in all FF games I know of it is, as well is referred to as such in Windurst missions etc...). This means it's supposed to be difficult to get. Not only that, but (when played properly) Summoner is one of the best support/damaging jobs (if not THE best) - now why would S-E want to make that available to low-lvl noobs?

Most people have agreed that the biggest flaw to the summoner job was the Blood Pact interval and perpetuation cost, and I believe S-E has fixed it with the Summoner Relic gear.

Anyhow, thats just my opinion (I'm just a low lvl BST - no real ambitions of becomming a SMN, although it is a cool job - I'm not a huge fan of magic though - just not my style).

[Tomoh]

First of all, any internet petition will fall on deaf ears. If you want to change things, write or call SE. You will have a minutely better chance of being heard.

As for the SMN's avatar and job, my personal opinion is that it stays the way it is. Part of the hook, charm , or torture of MMORPG is to have something available at each level to keep you playing. SMN's avatars were meant to be done after LV60 and Fenrir after 70. I consider it to be in the same line as subjob at 18, Chocobo at 15, AFs at 40 and 50s, etc. Is it teasing to allow SMN job at 30 and not provide the means to get the Primes til 60+? Yes, it is. It's also a hook for SE to keep the gamers interested and striving for more. Fenrir and other avatars are reward for looooong play.

[Calianeri]

SMN is the Astral Ring of jobs. It's very flashy, it's a status symbol, and it's usable at low levels, but it's impossible to obtain on your first job, and it's a luxury.

There are a few vocal people who think it's their inalienable right to play SMN right away with everything easier to obtain. Well, that's not what the job was designed to be. That should be 100% clear by now, but a few people are just going to continue flailing their arms about it. Is it disappointing? Sure, if you thought you'd be able to play a full SMN from the get-go you're right to be disappointed, but you're not right to call it unfair or screwed up.

The avatars are much more than level 1 SMN spells. They are high-level content for all players. Fenrir is currently end-game content. The SMN-only NM-drop equipment like Carbuncle Mittens is also an unmissable clue. Simply put, SE doesn't want a lot of SMNs in the game. They don't want new players to be SMNs.

This became clearer to me when I noticed the Pokemon-like quality about obtaining the avatars even among players who don't intend to seriously level SMN. You gotta catch em all, because they are a high-level challenge and an easy-to-identify achievement. Tomoh said it well.

All that said, could the job use some tweaking to make that high-level achievement more worthwhile as a main job? Yeah, but very careful tweaking. A party-buffing SMN with a lower Blood Pact timer could be too powerful. Lower avatar perpuation costs may be more realistic.

[Karinya]

Originally posted by Mikeb
Getting the avatars is as it should be. Summoning magic is SUPPOSED to be FORBIDDEN magic (in all FF games I know of it is, as well is referred to as such in Windurst missions etc...). This means it's supposed to be difficult to get. Not only that, but (when played properly) Summoner is one of the best support/damaging jobs (if not THE best) - now why would S-E want to make that available to low-lvl noobs?

First Law of Game Design: Limited availability is no substitute for balance. I don't think smn (even with the avatars) is THAT good, but if it is, it should be available to everyone or no one; anything else is grossly unfair.

You make it sound like getting to a high level in some OTHER job should give you a right to be a better summoner than someone who pursues it from the start.

Yes, I'm upset that everyone starts out gimped until they do the subjob quest, too. People who don't do research on sites like this one and choose THF with no sub have to go through 14 levels of hell until they get their FIRST useful ability. But at least most people can get over that in a week or two. I understand the theory behind limiting the advanced jobs to people who are 30+ - some of them are more complex to play and call for a player with some experience - although by that logic, RDM should be advanced too, even though it would break the FF1 reference. And anyway, anyone who wants to take a job to high levels will need a sub in their 30s eventually; and most people sub basic jobs.

But 60 is pretty unreasonable, and 75 is ridiculous. We're talking months to YEARS of effort in a job you may not want to play at all - and may never use again.


All this wouldn't be a problem (or at least, not much of one) if it were viable to level SMN to 55-60 and then get the primes. But it isn't, and THAT's the problem. SMN without primes isn't just inferior; it's practically unplayable. It makes WHM/WAR look strong and useful.

[Kirara]

orz

it's there for you,, when you get high enough to obtain it (or be a begger for it)
75 might be ridiculus foryou, which is why you shouldn't play smn, it's not to many others

orz

[aszid]

well... my main problem is that all of the primes require roughly the same level to get. there is no spacing, there is no "building up"

essentially a SMN is a gimp until the player has hit lvl 60+ with at least one job.

maintaining a challenge to getting the summons does NOT have to mean making them solely high level. just put level caps on the fights.


i am reminded of playing RagnarokOnline.... the company was consistantly adding new areas and content... however in order to SURVIVE in the new areas and stuff you had to be insanely high leveled. they added little to no low and mid level things. enhancing only the high-level end of game makes it seem like everyone who's new or just doesn't have time to level up that high gets cheated.

I'm not saying make the primes easy, i'm saying spread out the level requirements! make it so that a party of 30's can kill one! then another that a party of 40's can kill, etc... even if they are capped fights, at least summoners would have a chance to enhance their job, without having to be super high level. from my understanding getting the primes are some of the hardest and most time consuming quests in the game (including fame time), isn't it bad enough without making is solely high level?


*edit*

the main problem i see with summoner is that your strength does not naturally progress as you level to the same degree as EVERY OTHER JOB.

i think the best way that they could have done the summoner fights, is restricted it to solo fights, with a level cap, which you have to be a summoner to fight, of course scaling the strength of the avatars... this would also make alot more sense than the way it is currently done... after all, it's the summoner that has to prove they are worthy... not the other players that are there babysitting.... in every other FF game ever (that had summons) the summons were some of the most powerfull abilities in the game.. yet in this game it seems that their usefullness has been diminished to almost solely support abilities.

*end*

[ninvampire]

I like the idea of a TP gauge being added to the summons. The summons need a kick in the damage department, so a TP bar would help. Not astral flow strength, but definitely stronger than regular attacks to give summoners a reason to keep their summon out.

[CoalChamber]

I have always liked SMN in all the FF games. And in all the FF games it usualy the center of the plot. In my eyes SMN is just too weak as it stands now. Blood pact takes 1 minute recharge. This needs to be tweaked, maybe 30 seconds or at least make EACH Blood Pact attack have it's own timer, so you could use Poison Nails from Carbuncle and then say use Healing Ruby right afterwards. SMN is about power, force, strength and shear detruction. I mean, call forth Bahamut and level an entire city.

I've always loved SMN. I'm thinking of even being one once I obtain all the avatars. But the weakness are just a major turnoff. It simply has too many. All people see SMN as is merely a buffed up WHM. And they are basically limited to this. SMN in FFXI is just a bit more then disapointing to me. This is with several jobs aswell, some seem to have been rushed a bit too much and need some tweaking. Just my 2 cents, please don't kill me :sweat:

[Mikeb]

Smn is a great support class (not just a curetank), blink-ga, haste-ga, etc...., are very helpful to a party. Also, the lvl 70 blood pacts are apparently very strong. As for blood pact timer, that's addressed with the Relic gear.