my current gripes with the summoner class

[Mystic Fury]

ok much of this has already been posted before, but i cant read through all of it to post my own ideas, so here goes:

Ok, so i recently acquired the summoner class and am having a lot of fun with it...granted i am only lvl 9, but im doing well. however, there are a number of things that REALLY turn me off about the class that may make it become boring after a while.

Regardless of whatever anyone says, i still do not see why it takes SOOOO long to get the avatars. "its a high lvl job" some people say, "it came out after a year from the original in Japan, so people would already have high lvls" others say. but the fact of the matter is, someone who has had their heart set on playing summoner from the beginning has to wait till they lvl ANOTHER job reaches lvl 60, or mooch off some higher lvls, in order to begin to develop. whats up with that? all the other advanced jobs develop as they lvl, but thats not so with the summoner. the way that avatars are acquired is TOTALLY unfair. is someone can explain this to me OTHER than by saying that the job is just meant for high lvls, i will appreciate that.
one of my biggest problems with this is that the summoner just "develops" all at once. once you hit lvl 60 you can get all the summons if you have enough fame. but it shouldnt be like that, it should be progressive, like every other job. say you get the job, lvl up another job to 60, but your summoner is still lvl 1, then get all the summons...how is that fair? your a lvl 1 with every summon!
Another thing that bothers me about this is that you can obtain the summons with OTHER JOBS!! isnt it the summoners responsibility to acquire the summons, not that characters warrior, or black mage, or white mage? the fact that other jobs develop the summoner, not the summoner developing himself, irritates me.
My idea, whether or not it would work, would be that the summoner, at certain lvl intervals, can do THEIR OWN quest, ONLY ACQUIRABLE as a summon, to get the summons. so, you start out with carbuncle...at lvl 10, you can do a quest to acquire garuda...then at lvl 20, you can do one for shiva, lvl 30-ifrit 40-leviathan 50-titan 60-ramuh (and once fenrir comes out that could be like 70) now it doesnt have to exactly be like this, but something along those lines. now, the quest can be long, and maybe arduous, but it should be suited to the lvl, and although should somehow involve the prime avatar, it shouldnt have to be that you must fight and defeat them. maybe you would have to find them in a certain zone and fulfill a quest of their wishes...maybe the higher lvl ones like leviathan and titan you would be required to fight, but,with this method, you could progressively aquire summons.
I would have such a problem with this (i would still have a problem but not as big) if the summons werent as weak as they are. the summons are renowned for their power. the summons should be beefed up, no matter what. this can be ofset by possibly lowering the summoners skills, like less hp maybe, a worse staff skill, worse evasion, but the summons would compensate.

well, theres my little spew...if you disagree, please let me know

[Tiamath]

I completely agree. I wanted to be SMN before I read on the forums about how much they got shafted. One high level Summoner even said you really aren't powerful at all until like, level 70. Acquiring the summons progressively would defintely give some motivation to the summoner (as well as having the option to fight them for high levels, for items... not necessarily for the ability to summon them). Having carbuncle and the elementals all the way to 60 is pretty lame... At least, if SE is going to make them a support job (as opposed to a damage job) make it into a fun support job, not one you have to wait around for tapping your foot until 65. I agree with you completely, Mystic, and I think the class needs some *serious* revamping.

[Teffie]

They could have done that, but they didn't
They made a system, which is working perfectly fine.
If you were to use your progressive version of acquiring summons, How and When would they learn their abilities?

So your saying, as soon as you hit 20 you can do a quest for a fully-decked out Garuda in your arsenal?

You can't give them abilities every 1 level, that would be too unfair to the other jobs.
So if you give them abilities progressivly (say every 5-10 levels), What would be the point of getting Titan at 50? so he could learn Stone II at level 55?

What would be the point of learning Stone II at level 55.. or even 50 for the matter.

The point of Questing for each summon, is so that they can aquire certain skills which are necessary at certain levels.

Summons have, and will always been the legendary class of FF. If you want to be a top notch Summoner, Expect to put the work into it. I want to play a summoner as much as you do, so I made a plan and decided to level my BRD to 65 since BRD's are highly wanted for Summon Prime Fights. I am level 60 now, and I unlocked all the Summon Quests. At the point I am at now, the method of obtaining the Summons seems good.

[Tiamath]

I don't think anyone said that they get all their abilities when you get them. A more simple idea -- every 10 levels, your summons get new abilities (all of them). Work around it, make the job fun, not a trip to the dentist. Making summoner work so extremely hard for what makes their class THEIR CLASS, with such little reward is a little discouraging... I never said anything about getting a fully decked out summon as soon as you get it, I don't think mystic did either. It can be worked around, just make some summons easier to attain than others.

[Mystic Fury]

ok but do you also think its fair that if lvl 1 summoner als o has a lvl 65 other job, that they can start out with EVERY summon? that doesnt make sense.

heres an idea: how about the abilities they get are tied to your summoning skil lvl. it would still be based on your lvl somewhat by placing a max skill lvl, but that way the number of abiliities your summons have make sense

or, each summon could have their own summoning skill lvl that you raise by using that particualr summon and, when you acquire them progressively, they start out with a decent array of abilities so that they arent totally useless to use. for example, carbuncle is who you start out with, he only starts with one ability...once you raise your carbuncle skill lvl to 10, he gains another...when you get, say, garuda at lvl 10, he only starts with one ability too, and once his skill lvl reaches 10, he gets another...but, when you get, say, shiva, at lvl 20, she starts out with TWO abilities, and once her skill lvl reaches 10, she gets another...your two other summons may, by then, have 3 abilities as well, so it would even out. does that make sense?

oh and how you say they implemented a system already, one thats working? umm, to be perfectly honest, its not working...the summoner is only decent at high lvls, the fact that one character must lvl up another job to lvl 60 to play an advanced job, when all the others can start at lvl 30 (in their entirety, of course) doesnt qualify as "working."

your thoughts...?

[Teffie]

I dunno...
Seems more rewarding to me with the system they have now.
A person who has a summon besides Carbuncle gets major crowd attention when they summon. Being in Valkurm with a Giant Ifrit by your side and having people come over and clap and cheer makes the long wait all worth while.

[Mystic Fury]

i guess, id still rather people to play a normally progessing, balanced job over drawing large crowds though

[Teffie]

<-- Attention Whore :3

[Macht]

Hmm, the way I've always seen it is that the SMN job is sort of based on the same idea as the Aeon's from FFX and the Guardians from FFVIII. The Summoner doesn't complete their adventure alone, they need people willing to help or friends they have established to act as "Guardians" for them on their journey to acquire the Avatars. As well as in acquiring the avatars their power is so strong that they need to be subdue first.

You got to remember S-E isn't solely focusing on the jobs in the same mannor as you think is right. They want it to fit the story they already developed. Going by FFX's story in the beginning they make it seem like Yuna had been studying and learning a lot about the Aeon's before she even got her first one. So in a similar manner you're pretty much stuck with carbuncle for a good length of time till you get the next one. So you can either play it out in that fashion to the storyline or use another job. Either way it really doesn't matter it's you the adventurer that's taking that journey regardless of the job.

[Frederick]

well put. the way XI is set up to get summons is following along the same path as X, having to visit cloisters of trials and such. i see it as a challenge i can take up later in the game, especially since i've finally come to grips with the fact that there is no such thing as "finishing" this game.

[tdh]

Now, I completely agree that SMN needs to be re-tooled, however I'm not quite sure how they should goa bout re-tooling the job classes.

Those of us who just got the game in October complain that you need to be Lv60 to take on the Primes so you can then command them. We complain because we have to get a job class to 30 to unlock the quest, and then the damn quest to be a SMN is annoying as hell, and then you either need to get your main class to level up 30+ more times, or level SMN to 60 to then get real use of the class.

However, we need to keep in mind that SMN was released in Japan just about everybody playing had one or more job classes at Lv60+. So they could then go do the quests, and have access to the Summons.

The way there were setup to start out with is fine, just the rest of the world is playing catch up, and that same setup is annoying them.

Maybe we'll get lucky and S-E will change the SMN class when they add PvP, or maybe we'll just have to suck it up and go along with how it's set up now. Hell, maybe S-E will make the SMN class stronger, and more people will want to go through all the work needed to become a real SMN and have all the Summons.

[Valerathon]

There are technical issues that I have with the SMN job, yes. There are plenty of other threads that cover those shortcomings nicely.

As for the way the job is set up, and how you acquire SMNs, I'm totally ok with it. And I'm prepared to invest time and effort into getting 5 high lvs to help me with one Avatar quest early on, by paying them. Then at around SMN lv 25, I'll go for the other Avatars, too, and by then, my WHM will be around lv 60ish (close enough, I'm sure). I have no problem doing it this way. I like that I'll be a part of an exclusive club (like riding the airship - you either invest the time in Rank, or buy you're way in, or a combination of the two, even, and hire a high lv to walk you thru the Missions). I wouldn't want this to be like "every other job".