Libra... What is it?!

[Mog]

Re: Libra... What is it?!

I hate responding to threads like this, but I can't resist.

The CoP changes are made for people that had no business playing FFXI to start with, but stupidly kept on investing in it anyway, complaining that they had to work with other people in a co-operative multiplayer game.

You honestly think that...really? A lot of my good friends/relatives that have this game just don't have the time to do certain things, CoP being one of them. Does it make them any less of a player? No

SE made a lot of changes, because guess what, FF14 is right around the corner. Not because they want to make terrible players get CoP finished. Extreme changes like 99 level cap, easier CoP, ridiculous magian weapons, abyssia, etc etc etc will cause a love/hate relationship. People who love the changes will stay with FF11 and maybe play FF14. Those who hate? Well ok, FF14 is right around the corner, so I'm going to pick up that.

SE is changing a lot in the game for a purpose. SE is appeasing the playerbase that doesn't have CoP done. This does include crappy players but you can't say how many of them compared to newer/limited time players there are.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Libra... What is it?!

Yeah, let's make the system for spreadsheet nerds, their system of inflated enmity values and technobabble.

The values are "grossly inflated" only because you don't know what they mean.

Kaeko found the minimum value of enmity, and the numerical evidence suggested everything is in integer multiple of this minimum value. (It's like the electron's charge if you want an analogy from physics; all amount of electricity is a multiple that number.)

A Provoke is labeled as 1800 VE precisely because it creates exactly one thousand eight hundred times the enmity of this "minimum value of enmity" on the volatile (decaying) side. You can rename the units to "beans" or "lego blocks" or "nerds" whatever works for you, but the number 1800 has an exact and precise meaning.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Libra... What is it?!

The values are "grossly inflated" only because you don't know what they mean.

I know and understand the math, the varying types of enmity and I have spent some time reading it, but in terms of playing the game, processing such information it is a fucking eyesore.

That's because its a metagame element that is meant to stay hidden. Communicating the percent value through Libra is almost cracking the metagame wall as it is, but at least the way its communicated is quick, efficient and easy for everyone to understand without having to pull up Kaeko's blog or BG or do some math.

Communication is key, as is having everyone on the same page as quickly as possible.

Metagame is for min/maxers and not everyone is a min/maxer - you need to accept that. I don't want to deal with min/max thinking while I am in an EXP party or event. I do the mix/max mentality when I gear up, when I write macros and the rest I just run on intuition and communication with others.

And guess what? For the majority of the game, this works. If fact, it works for the whole game. Metagame elements are not required to enjoy the game. They are non-essential.

I think SE just wants that sort of thing to remain hidden, those that have cracked it might sincerely believe it would be useful information for all, but they're nerds and they find fun in dissecting mystery, not preserving it. That's why they're not game designers.

SE is changing a lot in the game for a purpose. SE is appeasing the playerbase that doesn't have CoP done. This does include crappy players but you can't say how many of them compared to newer/limited time players there are.

The appeasement mentality tends to not win anyone respect in the long run.

MMOs are not made for people with limited time and there is no amount of adjustments you can make that will satisfy them all, that's why appeasing players is going to backfire in the long run. That's because they'll always want appeasement somewhere else.

Why? Because there will be some other bottleneck - just like CoP's - where people that "don't have the time" will get stuck yet again. WoW has them, all MMOs do. You can keep trying to play the game with your tiny little pool of time and expecting a different result, but there will always be something to stop you.

What's next, are people going to cry for relic weapon access to be made easier? I'm pretty sure that's the next thing since the relics can now be upgraded further. Not only that, you need people for Dynamis - which is annoying, right? And there are places people don't want to help with, like Windurst.

If everyone is equally deserving and "just as much a gamer" as anyone else, then let's just hand out relic like candy. I'm sure you have no objections, right?

[Taskmage]

Re: Libra... What is it?!

I still don't understand how 3000 > 1200 is number crunching. If anything using absolute values make it easier on the players because they can see “Hey, Provoke makes my number go up 1800" without consulting a spreadsheet or doing any calculation above the first grade level. This output format will probably cause more confusion because popping a Gekko when you're at 50% enmity could mean completely eclipsing the tank's enmity or merely taking a small fraction, and there's no way for the player to determine which is which without doing the same kind of observation and gut feeling they would have been doing in the first place without libra.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Libra... What is it?!

I know and understand the math, the varying types of enmity and I have spent some time reading it, but in terms of playing the game, processing such information it is a fucking eyesore.

An eyesore? They are just numbers, no more obnoxious than HP, MP or TP.

Saying you're exaggerating in this thread would be an understatement.

That's because its a metagame element that is meant to stay hidden. Communicating the percent value through Libra is almost cracking the metagame wall as it is, but at least the way its communicated is quick, efficient and easy for everyone to understand without having to pull up Kaeko's blog or BG or do some math.

Anyway, I happen to be fine with the percentages--it's just the presentation layer, and the most important info--how close is person B to person A in terms of enmity--is easy to tease out, either way.

Calling a straightforward and precise number "grossly inflated" is still stupid, though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Libra... What is it?!

I still don't understand how 3000 > 1200 is number crunching. If anything using absolute values make it easier on the players because they can see “Hey, Provoke makes my number go up 1800" without consulting a spreadsheet or doing any calculation above the first grade level. This output format will probably cause more confusion because popping a Gekko when you're at 50% enmity could mean completely eclipsing the tank's enmity or merely taking a small fraction, and there's no way for the player to determine which is which without doing the same kind of observation and gut feeling they would have been doing in the first place without libra.

I never have said for a second that Libra was useful. I don't think it is.

I don't think 3000 > 1200 is any more useful.

In fact, I've pretty much said its all spam and useless metagame stuff, but at least the way SE is presenting it is, you know, presentable and something you don't have to learn at all.

See, they want you to second guess, but if you're of the min/max mentality, you only want certainty. RPGs love to have their little metagame mysteries, though, and there's nothing wrong with that. Insisting your way is better is insisting that the creators are wrong for wanting to obscure math with mystery, that being aloof is some crime to players.

Its not.

Pokemon has EVs and Natures and that's all very mysterious stuff until you've really dug into it. For some people figuring out that mystery is part of the fun and I agree. I don't think it has to be broadcast to the world just because there are completionists out there that want internet justice because Game Freak is being deceptive.

Those that want the metagame will find it, it doesn't need to be laid bare for all to see.

[Mog]

Re: Libra... What is it?!

If everyone is equally deserving and "just as much a gamer" as anyone else, then let's just hand out relic like candy. I'm sure you have no objections, right?

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Finishing missions != obtaining relic weapon. I highly doubt someone with very limited time would complete a relic weapon unless they bought gil.

[cidbahamut]

Re: Libra... What is it?!

ITT BBQ QQs about an addition of two digits to the output of Libra.