The Real SCH Group 2s

[Malacite]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Ultimately we can't really judge these until the update, but I remain skeptical.

I still say it's a damn shame SE didn't try to come up with some unique SCH spells usable only with the Addendums up. I stand by my desire for haste, but even more so for more job-specific magic as there seems to be very little of that these days.


Actually, SCH probably has the most unique spells of any mage in the game Oo


Well, not counting BLU but technically those are enemy abilities so doesn't count IMO.


If Voidstorm is +max MP, holy shit.... imagine what that can do for jobs like BLU and DRG? PLD will be begging for it! O. o or Aurora for DRK! (Assuming it's a good chunk of HP)

I very much doubt it'll all stats up. It's likely going to be HP and MP, or possibly a very weak regen/refresh? But then SCH would have a mini AoE refresh and idk.... we'll have to wait and see ^ - ^

I've got a feeling the real power of Storm Surge might rest with Aurora and Void.

[Feenicks]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

If Voidstorm is +max MP, holy shit.... imagine what that can do for jobs like BLU and DRG? PLD will be begging for it! O. o or Aurora for DRK! (Assuming it's a good chunk of HP)

Not really, the effect only lasts for 3 minutes. So in that 3 minutes you have to Refresh/Heal the MP back and also use it for the effect to not be wasted. HP+ would be good for jobs which have abilities or weapon skills which depend on max HP though.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

I stand by my desire for haste, but even more so for more job-specific magic as there seems to be very little of that these days.

I can't say I'm surprised.

Actually, SCH probably has the most unique spells of any mage in the game Oo

We have 17 job-exclusive spells, none of which can be subbed and all rather powerful in their own regard. Since SCH has been given the ability to merit the effects of 16 of them, I think SE is being extremely generous to SCH. What other job has gotten to merit the effects of 16 spells from their job-specific merits?

And you still want them to have Haste?

[Malacite]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

I do. Accession haste would rock and that's where I stand on the matter. I don't care how unreasonable that might be or any arguments you have may have against, it's what I'd like.

I'm not asking for it either (no way in hell is SE ever going to do it <.< unless the Dev team gets high one day), just think it'd be sweet is all.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

I went back an looked over the translated statement. It said it add "attributes" in association with storm spells.

Either the plural was meant to go with the "storm spells" or it means other attributes might be added with the use of the storm aside from just the base stat itself..

I think its just the base stats, though. We'll know when the update is out.

[Malacite]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

I think its just the base stats, though. We'll know when the update is out.

Unless they happen to be implying the secondary stat increases that result automatically from boosting primaries.

[Firewind]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Sorry but Stormsurge is just making SCH even more broken and will likely eventually replace all other mage jobs. I mean what do other mage jobs have over SCH? WHM gets Cure V which is rarely needed, Curaga IV which is comepletely unneeded, I don't think I've ever cast a Curaga highet then Curaga II Raise III which is completely useless within any exp party since the exp loss from death + R1 can be made up in a matter of munites and finally Haste, which if wiki is anything to go by is generally inferior to March. RDM gets refresh which is completely inferior to Sublimation since it caps at 150MP and Convert.

What tools does SCH get to play with? Accession essentially gives SCH access to Curaga IV. Rapture + Cure IV can completely outdo Cure V and can quite easily be stacked with Penury to make it one of the most Mp efficient Cure spells inthe game. Accession can also be used every minute meaning that AoE -na spells can be used every minute while WHM has to cling on to Divine Seal and pray that nothing happens in the 10 minutes it takes for the spell to recharge. RDM doesn't even get anything like AoE -na spells so has to rely on Fast Cast + Haste spams to quickly cure enfeebs.

Accession also allows access to AoE Blink, Stoneskin and Phalanx, all of which are much more potent than the SMN version for a fraction of the cost. Then you have AoE barspells from a RDM sub and you still have AoE Enspells and Regen II's.

The fact that is costs a streategem to do this is completely and utterly redundant. You get a strat back every single minute which is more than enough to keep AoE buffs up on people.

Then there is the Manifestation + Sleep combo that effentially gives the SCH Sleepga II. Combine it with elemental seal and you are guaranteed a full 90 seconds of AoE Sleep without using Ebullience or Focalization. The combination of a fully merited Stormsurge, Int+ weather, Focalization and Ebullience is almost certainly going to make SCH's nukes outdamage BLM's

Now with the concept of Accession + Firestorm stacking +STR on DDs will become the norm without a doubt especially with overuse of meleeburn parties. Who needs haste when you can easily AoE Etude the entire party with +STR, Stoneskin and Phalanx and still have a streategem left over for an emergcy AoE Erase?

Don't get me wrong I love SCH and I'm thinking of taking it to 75 after WHM. It's just SE seem to be trying to get rid of WHM for good and from this update it looks like they're trying to shove RDM out of exsitence as well. Is there going to be any point in playing as any other mage job as soon as these merits become available?

[Karinya]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Your post assumes that the SCH has multiple subjobs at once - /WHM to cure status without popping an extra stratagem for addendum, /RDM for phalanx and enspells, /BLM for elemental seal for manifestation sleep. (The extra charge for addendum to access sleep2 is also ignored - obviously since you're keeping AoE buffs on people, you can't just sit in DA.)

It's true that a focalization+ebullience nuke could outperform a BLM's nuke (if the SCH can somehow obtain comparable amounts of MAB), but that's 3 minutes worth of stratagems. The BLM can cast another nuke in about 5 seconds. Reliance on JAs matters.

One accession per minute is enough to keep *some* AoE buffs up - not every buff you could possibly imagine. And that's assuming you don't have to use stratagems for anything else.

SCH is a cool job, but they can't actually have 3 subjobs at once; and infinite stratagems is their 2hour, not a permanent condition.


P.S. A few other mistakes: Haste stacks with march, and refresh is not inferior to sublimation (they're about the same with SCH AF head). On the other hand, SCH gets Raise II at high enough levels, so their party doesn't have to take R1 the way a RDM's party does. Oh, and AoE barspells with Accession? Complete joke - WHM gets them natively for no extra MP cost.

[Nuriko]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Actually, the WHM AoE barspells cost more ... but it hardly matters, given the low costs in any case. Unless you're SERIOUSLY low on MP, 6 vs. 12 doesn't really mean much.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Sorry but Stormsurge is just making SCH even more broken and will likely eventually replace all other mage jobs.

You never explain this statement, even though you started with it.

I mean what do other mage jobs have over SCH? WHM gets Cure V which is rarely needed, Curaga IV which is comepletely unneeded, I don't think I've ever cast a Curaga highet then Curaga II Raise III which is completely useless within any exp party since the exp loss from death + R1 can be made up in a matter of munites and finally Haste, which if wiki is anything to go by is generally inferior to March. RDM gets refresh which is completely inferior to Sublimation since it caps at 150MP and Convert.

March can be stacked, but March is generally stacked by dumb BRDs in EXP PTs. High level content it might be part of a strategy, but double March is usually just a sign of a lazy BRD who doesn't want to think about other party member's needs.

But that's BRD, that's very little to do with SCH.

Refresh has its advantages over Sublimation. If a SCH is really serious about equipment, then they likely won't be using the SCH Mortarboard for Sublimation even when they are using the ability. Mortarboard is the only thing that brings sublimation close to Refresh in MP returns, but if you want more MP coming back to you, you have to wear it longer.

So for short-term MP returns Refresh is much, much better.

What tools does SCH get to play with? Accession essentially gives SCH access to Curaga IV. Rapture + Cure IV can completely outdo Cure V and can quite easily be stacked with Penury to make it one of the most Mp efficient Cure spells inthe game. Accession can also be used every minute meaning that AoE -na spells can be used every minute while WHM has to cling on to Divine Seal and pray that nothing happens in the 10 minutes it takes for the spell to recharge. RDM doesn't even get anything like AoE -na spells so has to rely on Fast Cast + Haste spams to quickly cure enfeebs.

Accession Cure IV is a not only a deathwish, but it doesn't really come close to a real Curaga IV unless I'm gonna stack Rapture or Divine Seal with it.

But why would I do any of that when I can Accession

Accession also allows access to AoE Blink, Stoneskin and Phalanx, all of which are much more potent than the SMN version for a fraction of the cost. Then you have AoE barspells from a RDM sub and you still have AoE Enspells and Regen II's.

To get all this, it means I have to sub /RDM. That means no access to Elemental Seal or Divine Seal. That makes me somewhat less of a reliable sleeper than most jobs. If I sub WHM or BLM, my situation gets a little better, but I lose other various spells to do it. What good is a more potent Sleepga for SCH if I have to lose another crowd control spell to do it. Better for a BLM to Sleepga II things and SCH help with AoE Bind and Gravity.

Its a balance and it was placed there intentionally by SE to prevent us from becoming too powerful. That's exactly why they made the main job's spell selection so lacking. They made this job so we'd all eventually flock to WHM, BLM and RDM subs for their various abilities and spells.

The fact that is costs a streategem to do this is completely and utterly redundant. You get a strat back every single minute which is more than enough to keep AoE buffs up on people.

Stratagem charges are only one minute recharge at 70+ and not before then.

Then there is the Manifestation + Sleep combo that effentially gives the SCH Sleepga II. Combine it with elemental seal and you are guaranteed a full 90 seconds of AoE Sleep without using Ebullience or Focalization. The combination of a fully merited Stormsurge, Int+ weather, Focalization and Ebullience is almost certainly going to make SCH's nukes outdamage BLM's

at 68+ most SCHs sub RDM, this means there's no Elemental Seal to stack with Sleepga. This means in most cases sleepga is better used by BLMs than SCHs. Meanwhile, again, SCHs could be helping keep the mobs tied down with Bind and Gravity.

Also worth pointing out that Manifestation doubles the recast time of these spells. If the SCH gets partially resisted, that means the spells will potentially wear off before I'm able to recast things like Bind or Gravity. Believe me, this has happened a bit, which is why SCHs love /RDM as much as BLMs do. We need the protection in case things go wrong.

Now with the concept of Accession + Firestorm stacking +STR on DDs will become the norm without a doubt especially with overuse of meleeburn parties. Who needs haste when you can easily AoE Etude the entire party with +STR, Stoneskin and Phalanx and still have a streategem left over for an emergcy AoE Erase?

I think AoEing storm spells would be just as much of a waste of stratagem charges as AoEing status cures. WHMs love to make a fuss about Accession, but Caedarva Mire showed me its not the best way to go about status cures. Unless we're in something like Dynamis-Jeuno where AoE status spam is the norm, its better to just take status cures on a case-by-case basis.

Accession doubles recast times and MP cost as well, so its best applied to things that aren't going to have an extensive recast attached to them.

Different players have different needs, being a BRD and COR, I don't just give people what they want because they ask for it. I'm a nosy bastard that looks at your gear looks at the situation and gives you what you need. If I decide your accuracy sucks, I'm giving you Thunderstorm.

Accessioning Storm spells will cost more MP than it would Blink, Stoneskin of Phalanx. Ultimately, what decides the the use of the spells will be what - if any - additional attributes they add.

[Malacite]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Sorry but Stormsurge is just making SCH even more broken and will likely eventually replace all other mage jobs.

I don't know where to begin to tell you just how completely wrong this is; but I'm sure BBQ's already corrected you by now so I'll leave it to him.

[Karinya]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Refresh has its advantages over Sublimation. If a SCH is really serious about equipment, then they likely won't be using the SCH Mortarboard for Sublimation even when they are using the ability. Mortarboard is the only thing that brings sublimation close to Refresh in MP returns, but if you want more MP coming back to you, you have to wear it longer.

So for short-term MP returns Refresh is much, much better.

Especially if you're not the one paying for the Refresh. Refresh is only a net of 110 MP for the RDM casting it on him/herself (unless you get a Conserve MP proc). A *non*-mortarboard Sublimation charges 100 MP in the same length of time (at the cost of 100 HP, although that's usually negligible if you're using accession stoneskin or drain) - and Sublimation doesn't have a casting time, either.

If you have someone else paying to refresh you, then you get 150 MP in 150 seconds for nothing, which is great - for you.

Its a balance and it was placed there intentionally by SE to prevent us from becoming too powerful. That's exactly why they made the main job's spell selection so lacking. They made this job so we'd all eventually flock to WHM, BLM and RDM subs for their various abilities and spells.

I agree - and it's easy for someone who doesn't know SCH well to miss the fact that some of its tricks rely on subjobs. Nobody expects a WAR to be able to SATA+WS, meditate, WS again, and then use Utsusemi to avoid damage from pulling hate - because while a WAR can do any of those things, they would need three subjobs at once to do *all* of them. Most people are familiar enough with which abilities are coming from the subjobs that they don't confuse that for all WAR native abilities.

But then some of the same people think that Elemental Seal and enspells are somehow built into SCH.

Stratagem charges are only one minute recharge at 70+ and not before then.

True, but since this thread is mainly about merits, irrelevant.

Also worth pointing out that Manifestation doubles the recast time of these spells. If the SCH gets partially resisted, that means the spells will potentially wear off before I'm able to recast things like Bind or Gravity. Believe me, this has happened a bit, which is why SCHs love /RDM as much as BLMs do. We need the protection in case things go wrong.

As a RDM, I've often had Gravity wear off before its recast was up - and that's with the strongest Fast Cast in the game. With double recast time you'd be practically guaranteed to have that happen (you can offset that with Alacrity, but then you run out of stratagems trying to recast Alac+Mani+Gravity every minute).

Accessioning Storm spells will cost more MP than it would Blink, Stoneskin of Phalanx. Ultimately, what decides the the use of the spells will be what - if any - additional attributes they add.

I think stormsurge will be minor at most, and storms will continue to be used for their main effect, weather. Bonus INT on Hailstorm would be nice if you're using ice nukes anyway and the rest will probably be insignificant in almost all situations. (A possible exception would be Rainstorm for max-boost-chi-blasting MNKs, since that's one action where basic stats can make a large difference).

It would take a pretty big amount of stormsurge to make storms function as etudes - and how commonly are etudes used anyway, aside from the above-mentioned chi-blasting MNKs?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Well, I'd be putting Rainstorm on myself a lot as a healer just for the MND, which helps with capping Stoneskin and Phalanx for Accession spam. If it turns out to be good enough, that might spare me some time acquiring more MND gear just for that. Then there's RNGs and MNKs, who enjoy MND buffs in certain events.

THFs also like thier SATA modifiers, so there's that.

If there's other attributes added to the storm spells aside from that base stats, that would be a stronger incentive and give other buffs a bit of use. +STR/Attack for Firestorm. MAB and INT for Icestorm. Haste, Evasion and AGI for Windstorm. Accuracy, Critical Hit Rate and Dex for Thunderstorm. And so on.

But we won't know if that's there until the update. Even if Windstorm did give an amount of Haste, it probably wouldn't be larger than what DNC gives. The base stats would probably see the largest boost, if any.

BRDs have less reason to Etude now because they finally have Pianissimo, though in some situations they should still make use of them. Since SCH doesn't have many offensive buffs at this point, anything we get in that regard is pretty nice, even if the bonuses are rather modest.

Tossing storm spells out now to other member has some benefit, such as helping land enfeebles and boosting cure potency to a degree on top of the obvious chance boost to elemental magic.

Oh and Desert Boots, can't forget that. And that rain hat. I want that rain hat, you wouldn't imagine how many people camp that thing.

[Lmnop]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

Good reason to use Stormsurge? Because en-spells aren't ideal for a party of 2-handers, and it won't get in the way of the DNC in the party. Has me pumped.

(Btw, MND doesn't boost Phalanx's effect -- just enhancing magic skill. But it does have a significant effect on Stoneskin.)

[Malacite]

Re: The Real SCH Group 2s

One of the few times I'm glad to be an Elvaan Mage :3