What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

[Aksannyi]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

It's not the job itself. It's how the community views SCH vs. other mages. "Oh, we don't need WHMs anymore because we have SCHs." Yes, I have heard that one, and it is bullshit, and it pisses me off. People don't realize how much more a WHM is capable of then a SCH, and also that SCH probably would rather be nuking anyway, but still assume that WHMs are now obsolete and that they can just get a SCH to fulfill all their healing needs.

If the community would realize, as a whole that SCH is its own job and not just another cure bot, and that SCH can not out-cure a WHM, maybe I'd stop with the SCH hate. But I'm surrounded by idiots who tell me that I'm not useful because, well, "We have a SCH now."

I wish I could just shoot stupid people in FFXI.

[Clever Ninja]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

I actually really like SCH. If I ever level a full-time back seat mage job again after I finish off BLU, it'd prolly be SCH. Sure I can't Refresh and Haste people like my RDM, but Sublimination is my own form of mp recovery, and stratagems in parties can be down right EVIL.

Plus their AF looks hot as hell, do I need another reason?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

It's not the job itself. It's how the community views SCH vs. other mages. "Oh, we don't need WHMs anymore because we have SCHs." Yes, I have heard that one, and it is bullshit, and it pisses me off. People don't realize how much more a WHM is capable of then a SCH, and also that SCH probably would rather be nuking anyway, but still assume that WHMs are now obsolete and that they can just get a SCH to fulfill all their healing needs.

If the community would realize, as a whole that SCH is its own job and not just another cure bot, and that SCH can not out-cure a WHM, maybe I'd stop with the SCH hate. But I'm surrounded by idiots who tell me that I'm not useful because, well, "We have a SCH now."

I wish I could just shoot stupid people in FFXI.

Sounds more like a symptom of your endgame community or LS than a symptom of the job itself.

Poor leaders tend to use jobs in really shallow ways. In the case of my last LS, they'd put my COR in melee PTs and the BRD in mage PTs and, to me, that didn't make any sense. I understood why the RNGs always wanted my COR - the BRDs in that LS didn't know what the fuck to do with RNGs because all those BRDs knew as March and Ballad. That was all EXP/Merit taught them about being a BRD.

COR is definately stronger support for mages and if you're gonna ask me to /WHM anyway, you should put me with the mages so I draw benefit. But this LS asked my to /WHM and usually stuck me with melee, which is murder on a COR because I have to give up a melee buff periodically to replenish MP and its something I can't place on melee.

So now I just make it damn well clear:

If you're gonna use my BRD as a manabattery and nothing more - you will never have my BRD available to you.

If you're asking my COR to /WHM, I better have mages every time save for Salvage. If I have a melee PT, I will sub my favorite combo - COR/whateverthefuckIwant.

If I'm SCH for healing - tank PT or GTFO. Otherwise, I expect to be teaming up with the BLMs for nuking, weatherspells and crowd-control.

Having two characters has its perks, though. I can log Kitten at some event camps and - oops - I don't have time to run and change jobs now, so you'll just have to deal with my RNG. Ha.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Sounds more like a symptom of your endgame community or LS than a symptom of the job itself.

That's pretty much it, Hades is filled with tards. I'm not in an LS at the moment due to some issues I had with the last one, so been meriting the shit out of my jobs lately (12 merits in like 4 days, that's more than I'd get in six months before) and avoiding endgame with the exception of Einherjar and helping out at HNM camps from time to time. I don't usually run into issues there, but in my old LS, I seriously began to feel like a fifth wheel when there were SCHs nearby.

I may level the job because I'm seriously such a mage at this point, and I have a lot of gear that's mage-centric so I don't think I'd have to even spend a fortune leveling it. Perhaps that will help me dispel some of my own personal SCH hate. There are other things for me to concentrate on first, for sure, but it is kind of interesting the more I read up on it.

But yeah, it's mostly endgame retards on this server which make me want to pull my hair out, and not just with the WHM vs SCH thing, but a lot of other really stupid shit like RDMs who don't seem to realize that they have a spell called Refresh, it's kind of irritating but since I left my last LS that has dissipated somewhat.

Sorry for the somewhat off-topic rant lol.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Aks, you rant about Hades a lot, why don't you come over to <insert any server here other than Hades and Odin . . . and while we're excluding Dark avatars, stay away from Fenrir, Diabolos, and Pandemonium, too>.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Because of my friends. Can't bear to leave them. I can put up with the idiots with good friends like the ones I have.

Also, 25 bucks can be much better spent right now, I'm so broke and it sucks.

[Vyuru]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Actually I could see Sch getting Break, I imagine it wouldn't be that different from them going /Drk for Stun. I don't think it'd be that bad a thing if Sch got it as some sort of merited spell.

And as for the whole Sch vs Whm thingy, IMO it's stupid and 'kitten sums up the differences nicely.

I mean sure, if I was going to level either Sch, Whm, or Blm now, I'd pick Sch because it's like leveling both Whm and Blm at the same time, I gain more utility from it. Whm is also a job where I'm not interested unless I can fully merit it's JA and spells, and my merits are planned for elsewhere.

And as always, AF is hot

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Break would be something, I suppose.

Something RDMs would shit bricks over not getting.

I like this idea.

[Aksannyi]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Break should have been level 37 so we could Chainspell Break.

I know that would be pointless, btw, unless it lasts as long as Stun, in which case it would be kind of retarded.

But I think we'll never get Break on any job. Being able to petrify stuff would be, well, broken.

[Feenicks]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

There is undoubtedly a really uninformed attitude towards SCH as a whole, and as usual it's completely down to the community. People judge SCH based on what they've seen -

They have seen that SCH can AoE -na spells at will, which is better than Divine Veil, so they think that SCH is better than WHM.

They have seen that SCH can now cast IV nukes with greater efficiency and for higher damage, so they think that SCH is better than BLM.

They have seen that SCH can regenerate it's MP over time as well as do all the above, and can also AoE Phalanx, so they think that SCH is better than RDM.

Add to this all the other really cool things about SCH, such as increased casting time, AoE enhancing spells etc, and all over you could be really easily convinced that SCH is simply the be-all and end-all of mage jobs.

What people completely fail to take into consideration is that SCH cannot do the above all at the same time. You are strongly limited by the modes of Dark/Light Arts and the number of Strategem charges, and Sublimation only gives a good result once it has been in effect for a while, unlike Refreshes which will begin restoring MP as soon as it's cast. It's important to note that this does not make the job crap either - rather it simply prevents it from being broken.

Of course people won't realise this - people who play this kind of game are generally fickle and judge purely by first impressions. In my opinion it's just best to turn your back to the misinformed.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Yeah, the situation with SCH is pretty similar to that of COR - people just largely misinformed about the job, but in COR's case, even more misinformed about its subjob potential.

The see AoE buffs, so they think its like playing BRD. Its not like playing BRD, the buff rotation is far more strict, we can only throw up one buff a minute because Phantom Roll is a shared Job Ability. Its one JA with 20 JAs inside it. I can't rotate a new Evoker's Roll in without waiting for the Evoker's being rotated out.

Some people see it as another RNG. They see RNGs sub NIN. They don't see that RNG has four Accuracy Bonus traits that COR doesn't get or that /RNG will actually provide them with more accuracy if you gear the job properly.

Others just see the job as expensive and since people let BRD and RDM get away with murder or gimpness, they figure people will let CORs do the same. And they do.

On Odin, I can often run an /sea all COR and I'm still one of the few subbing RNG or DNC. Always with the /NIN and /WHM, hardly anything else on them

SCH is harder to fuck up, but if you don't have /RDM at 75, I suppose you could say those SCHs are really shortsighted. Some people think we don't nuke as good as BLM because of this and we nuke pretty damn good. Others see we heal really well and sometimes, that's just all the endgame LS leaders care about. What they don't realize is they lose WHM and RDMs because they don't meet thier needs as much as they'd like to think they do, so WHM and RDMs quit and when SCHs show up, they start the cycle anew.

[Karinya]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Existing spells (above subjob level and not already available to SCH) and why SCH shouldn't get them as merit spells:

Teleports, Recalls, Warp II, Retrace: None of those would be game breaking, but there's no particular reason to put them in, either. Would you spend merit points for any of these spells?
Haste: Obviously ridiculously broken.
Repose: Redundant.
Higher level Banishes/Banishgas/Holy: Largely pointless for a job with real nukes, except maybe on dark elementals.
Higher curagas: Not on a job that can Rapture. Can be approximated with Accession cures anyway.
Cure V, Raise III, Reraise III: Too job defining for WHM.
Regen III: Actually might not be a terrible idea, but I can't imagine too many people spending merit points for it.
Poison II: Ditto. (You wouldn't want to AoE this one though.)
Higher -ga nukes, AM: Too job defining for BLM, and probably too powerful with Ebullience.
Refresh: Too job defining for RDM, and way overpowered when accessioned.

All that and the fact that most people didn't get spells that already existed as merit spells anyway.

But every mage job got some merit spells (even NIN) so probably SCH will get some too - they just won't be anything above.


Some ideas:

Weather spells were mentioned above - maybe a JA or trait that extends them? Klimaform II might be possible too.

Added effects for Grimoires (or possibly Addenda) - maybe increased % mp reduction for light, magic accuracy or magic atk bonus for dark?

New long timer (10-20 min) ability - instantly refills all your stratagem charges.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

Reason I pointed out Flash and Stun is that giving them to SCH wouldn't really be that game-breaking all things considered. Flash would at least give us some reason to skill divine, as there's really nothing to do with +15 Divine skill on our AF pants or the magic skill in general.

I don't see there purpose of a Klimaform II unless its going to function like Phalanx II. I can already AoE it with Manifestation, not that Manifestation is a Dark Arts skill I lean on much in Manaburn, though. It would be nice just to target those that really need it.

Meritting the duration of Weather magic is practical. I don't see another tier of weather spells happening since we can already activate and exploit sea obis for a signifigant bonus.

Its also possible that SE could make the Light and Dark Grimories merittable and each facet of the strategems within would be expanded by some degree. Only way to make that balanced is to separate the categories into Light Grimorie effect and Dark Grimorie effect. Perhaps raising the effect of the Grimorie by +1 per merit.

So lets say Parsimony got a 1% MP cost reduction, Alacrity cut recast by one addtional second, Manifestation got a +1 area radius boost and Eubullience got +1 potency. If you went 5/5, they could slip a new spell into Addendums.

That's almost how they handled Helices. It would have been somewhat ridiculous if SE made SCH merit the Helix spells individually since they're rather dependant on the day and weather for accuracy and damage. So they all got a boost in one category instead. There's a decent chance SE would do the same to Light and Dark Arts.

Though it would be nifty to have a Crimson Grimorie all my own >.>

Merittable, evil pet book. Get on it, SE o.o/

[Malacite]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

I honestly don't see any reason not to give them Haste via meriting Addenum: White.

First off you need to use up 2 stratagems just to get the AoE haste going. Secondly, it affects your Accession rotation. Most SCH I merit with tend to cycle between AoE Phalanx, Regen II and Stoneskin. Throwing haste into the mix means adjusting that cycle (likely cutting out Phalanx) and they can already do the same AoE's as SMN, why stop at Haste.

Hell the way I see it it's one less RDM "needed" for meriting.


And as I said before, I think the best (and most likely) way for SE to merit the Grimoires would be increasing each grimoire's over all effect (MP, Cast and Recast). Obviously Light and Dark arts effect would be merited separately though (which adds an interesting element for those who like to use SCH for one role over the other) since having the effects for both under 1 merit would be ridiculous.

5% less MP spent, time spent casting and recast @ level 5 seems perfectly reasonable to me. It's a noticeable boost but not a game breaking one.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: What they'll probably do with SCH Group 2

I honestly don't see any reason not to give them Haste via meriting Addenum: White.

First off you need to use up 2 stratagems just to get the AoE haste going. Secondly, it affects your Accession rotation. Most SCH I merit with tend to cycle between AoE Phalanx, Regen II and Stoneskin. Throwing haste into the mix means adjusting that cycle (likely cutting out Phalanx) and they can already do the same AoE's as SMN, why stop at Haste.

Hell the way I see it it's one less RDM "needed" for meriting.

While I would like nothing more than to loosen RDM's monopoly on the Healer slot in PTs, I don't think giving SCH Haste is the way to do it. The fact that we can already apply Stoneskin and Phalanx to other members doesn't make Accession the same as pacts with a similar ability. Its based on the SCH's enhancing skill and MND, not an avatar's.

And that's pretty powerful in and of itself.

The way we lessen RDM's broken hold on merits is honestly by giving something else as potent as Refresh or Haste to another job, but another spell.

SE clearly intended for SCHs to be a defensive buffer and there's really no job in the game that specializes as deeply in this regard as SCH. SMN used to, but as I've said in the past, I feel SMN needs to be balanced more against BRD and COR for party support than SCH or RDM.

And DON'T turn this into a topic about SMN, dammit.