Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Kanican - Introducing Scholar

I have to admit this entry in Kanican's blog is exciting to me. I had made my character, Foobar, originally with the intention of recreating my Enchanter through BST, RDM and BRD since they bore resemblances. This led to a lot of eventual disappointment, save for BST, which I still enjoy.

BRD/BST was the ultimate goal, because it technically was closest to thing to Enchanter from EQ. To explain, an Enchanter was a job that could Charm both mobs and NPCs, command them to attack as well as Bind enemies and refresh allies. They also had a Phalanx-ish spell the could cast on allies.

• Problem #1 was Bind had a high recast.
• Problem #2 was FFXI players define crowd control by spamming AoE sleep, which I found kinda irksome. Its just the most shallow kind of crowd control, but for years it was all FFXI really had.
• Problem #3 was there were no real endgame opportunites for Crowd Control as BST or BRD/BST. Maybe Alastor Antion. Maybe, but that's about all that pops to mind. SE likes to shitcan worthwhile charmable mobs for most endgame zones and camps (something they really, really, REALLY still need to fix in regards to BST).
• Problem #4 thwarts #3 before it can be anything more than a pet peeve, I'm often just gonna be babysitting BLMs anyway, so I'm not going to get to do CC control.

This left me with a lot of unspoken frustration with Foobar, amoung a pile of other frustrations RDM and BRD had, like BRD being too popular for its own good to stay sane and enjoy it at endgame.

Now enter SCH and practically all those issues are gone. Only downer is I can't sub /BST, but then, I think SE just doesn't want charmable, reasonably levelled mobs in certain camps, not to mention if I did sub BST my CC options are reduced to the irksome lolsleep only via Addendum: Black.

At the very least SCH is giving me most of what with Manifestation and great support options with Accession. AoE Gravity, Bind and Sleep II should prove to be rather potent. BST can just let me have my mob mind control/solo fix, I guess. Not that I'm complaining, BST is gonna make me stinkin rich :D

Anyway, nice to finally get the mage job I can finally get something I want out of and, hopefully, FFXI's endgame won't be so dense about accepting SCH as they have the ToA jobs (which is still rather infuriating).

[MrMageo]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

FFXI's endgame won't be so dense about accepting SCH as they have the ToA jobs (which is still rather infuriating).

Of course they will, people are caught up in 2004, I know members of my Sky LS frown upon the COR that comes (I dont know why). He rarely gets into the god fight alliance at all and if he does its just to burn his weapon skill then goodbye. Hell my sky shell frowns upon me showing up RDM/NIN so I can solo Despot/Zip while the rest are off fighting other things. It's mostly because I am the only one who comes as RDM and for some reason they can't live without refresh even with 5 WHM's 7'BLMs, 4 NIN's and 5 PLD's on any given night.

SCH is going to be looked at like this what does it offer to the group. Refresh: No, Haste: No, Reliable Nukes: No, Accurate Enfeebles: No, Stun: No. What it does offer BLM buffs: Yes, Defense Buffs: Yes, Curing: Yes. BLM buffs are unesassary, considering that a COR roll is MP free and always available to be kept up, but COR is frownd on 6x BLM for stun is > 5x with a SCH. Defense Buffs, Outside of the tank the other DD's don't get hit to often by the mob except by AoE's in which case the WHM's simply recover them from that very quickly, or in which case a SMN can use a WP to extend nocto/earthen ward.

That Leaves Curring its all SCH potentially Brings to the endgame table that is of any decent use, however If you want curring bring another WHM.

Its unfourtunate but 95% of the population are trapped in 2004, they go with the methods passed down for years, and frankly SCH/DNC/BLU/COR/PUP don't fit into them. Personally I feel that every job brings another peice to the puzzle but I am an advocate for many things considered to be wrong and useless (ie. RDM melee). However everything has its use at some point and I hope to god that people wont relegate SCH to another lack luster WHM replacement like they have to RDM and SMN, but all things considering it will happen regardless of what the 5% of us think of SCH/DNC/BLU/COR/PUP and their usefulness at end game.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

I'm not going to point out what's wrong with your post, but only because others already do that so well.

Additionally, I've been looking into some endgame LSes here on Odin, some seem stuck in the old ways, others seem rather progressive and adapt with change. A job like COR might be seen as luxury rather than neccessity to some, but luxury doesn't equal useless. I'd rather play a job I do enjoy rather than fumble with one that's accepted and be bored as hell during endgame.

Honestly, the newer jobs just excite me more, they're more flexible and diverse. They may be uncomfortable to people set in thier ways because they lack a singular definition to apply them. That's not my problem and hasn't really deterred me from seeking out what I want.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

No denying that SCH enables exciting new strategies to crowd control, but a few minors things to point out:

• Problem #1 was Bind had a high recast.

SCH doesn't solve that; Manifestation just makes it AoE.

• Problem #2 was FFXI players define crowd control by spamming AoE sleep, which I found kinda irksome. Its just the most shallow kind of crowd control, but for years it was all FFXI really had.

I spend a lot of time as crowd controller as RDM/BLM, so take some slight issues with this. It's true that Sleepga is my primary tool, but resist happens, and it's often followed up with Sleep I or II. Also, to minimize waking up at different times, I've actually Stonea critters to wake them up at max distance, then Sleepga them in one sweep. Even a sleep-only approach isn't that simple.

Gets more complicated, too; in case of mixed monsters where some are just resistant to black magic Sleep, those critters are controlled with Gravity and Bind. There is also the whole kiting game for things which simply can't be slept, such as Ix'Aern (DRG)'s pets.

There's a bit more intricacy to FFXI's (pre-SCH) crowd control than you give credit for, IMO.

(It's understandable that you think crowd control without Scholar is shallow and monotonous, since you never played high level RDM as a crowd controller in different situations, and only had BRD side of exeperience; a year ago I would have thought it's only about AoE sleep as well.)

Now enter SCH and practically all those issues are gone.

Hmmph.

RDM/BLM
CC Tools: Sleep, Sleep II, Sleepga, Gravity, Bind
Lacking Sleepga II and Stun compared to BLM, but with better accuracy for every spell it does have, and faster cast as well as recast.

BLM/RDM
CC Tools: Sleep, Sleep II, Sleepga, Sleepga II, Gravity, Stun, Bind
The most power sleep tool: Sleepga II. Lower survivability than RDM, however, and less accuracy on the shared spells.

BRD
CC Tools: Foe Lullaby, Horde Lullaby.
Tiny tool set, but very good on dark resist critters, which this game as plenty. Nearly uninterruptable casting is a great bonus.

SCH/RDM
CC Tools: Sleep, Sleep II, Gravity, Bind, and Manifestation version of them.
Ability to AoE anything once a minute makes it possible to mass Gravity or Bind sleep resistant monsters, opening up Gravity and Bind from controlling tiny number of critters to larger numbers. However, its crowd control capability is tied to Stratagem and spell recast, making its ability to keep up long term control by itself somewhat suspect.

I think Kaeko is right; SCH/RDM is tailor made to be a part of a crowd control team. Instead of tossing in more and more of the same jobs to counter resist and, er, controller attrition, a small heterogeneous mix of players with a SCH added to enhance safety of other team members.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

SCH doesn't solve that; Manifestation just makes it AoE.

Yes, but you're also forgetting about Alacrity. The recast for your next bind is also halved, this on top of the halved casting time of the current Bind Alacrity would be active with. This would make SCH even more effective at individual mob Binding than existing jobs, so it doesn't just have to be Manifestation as a CC tool, two uses of Alacrity would let you rotate Binds and Gravity or even sleeps more quickly than some jobs.

I spend a lot of time as crowd controller as RDM/BLM, so take some slight issues with this. It's true that Sleepga is my primary tool, but resist happens, and it's often followed up with Sleep I or II. Also, to minimize waking up at different times, I've actually Stonega critters to wake them up at max distance, then Sleepga them in one sweep. Even a sleep-only approach isn't that simple.

So what you're saying is, between that Stonega, you sleep it, right? >.> Yeah, that's really intricate.

Gets more complicated, too; in case of mixed monsters where some are just resistant to black magic Sleep, those critters are controlled with Gravity and Bind. There is also the whole kiting game for things which simply can't be slept, such as Ix'Aern (DRG)'s pets.

That's not more complicated, that's pretty much common sense. If you can't sleep it, kite it. Gravity is obviously going to be a big part of that.

There's a bit more intricacy to FFXI's (pre-SCH) crowd control than you give credit for, IMO.

Not really. If it were more intricate, I wouldn't have been so dissatisfied with it. And there are no CC tools a RDM has that I didn't have on RDM to the level I took it, so the "You haven't played high level RDM" bit doesn't fly. There's nothing your RDM could do at 75 that a level 51 or 60 RDM couldn't do in terms of CC at his level. The spells themselves aren't going to change.

RDM/BLM
CC Tools: Sleep, Sleep II, Sleepga, Gravity, Bind
Lacking Sleepga II and Stun compared to BLM, but with better accuracy for every spell it does have, and faster cast as well as recast.

BLM/RDM
CC Tools: Sleep, Sleep II, Sleepga, Sleepga II, Gravity, Stun, Bind
The most power sleep tool: Sleepga II. Lower survivability than RDM, however, and less accuracy on the shared spells.

BRD
CC Tools: Foe Lullaby, Horde Lullaby.
Tiny tool set, but very good on dark resist critters, which this game as plenty. Nearly uninterruptable casting is a great bonus.

Stuff we already know, but you fail to note BRD's Lullabys have the weakest duration of all sleeps.

Way to not include WHM, COR or BLU in there, by the way. Yeah Light-based sleeps stronger than Lullaby and the best steady stun-locker in the game aren't anything to write home about

SCH/RDM
CC Tools: Sleep, Sleep II, Gravity, Bind, and Manifestation version of them.
Ability to AoE anything once a minute makes it possible to mass Gravity or Bind sleep resistant monsters, opening up Gravity and Bind from controlling tiny number of critters to larger numbers. However, its crowd control capability is tied to Stratagem and spell recast, making its ability to keep up long term control by itself somewhat suspect.

Depends what the merits end up being, hopefully, SE doesn't take a year and a half to get Group 2s out for WotG jobs. If they can merit Stategem charges or recast, that could tip the scales entirely. Additionally, if the SCH can Gravity the mobs, then the BLMs can just sleep them. I think that's gonna buy enough time to get a charge back. It really depends on what's needed, SCH might have made kiting multiple mobs practical.

[Feba]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

take some slight issues with this. It's true that Sleepga is my primary tool, but resist happens, and it's often followed up with Sleep I or II.

Ok, I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at that. I mean, I respect that just sleeping mobs is much more complex than it seems, but saying "I don't just have sleepga, I can sleep them individually too!" just tickles my funny bone.

Anyway, I played a BLM, but crowd control was still complicated enough that I actually went out of my way to quest sleepga II (good times); it is definitely not just a "press sleep macro and forget" situation. I'm sorry if you got bored with it, BBQ, but it does take some thinking to get a mob to stay under control, and then make sure it doesn't rip your face off when it's time to kill it. It might not apply at endgame, or even to FFXI at all anymore, but I've been in parties where getting a link was a Pretty Big Deal, and if it hadn't been for good mages working on crowd control, the party would have wiped.

[MrMageo]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

"You haven't played high level RDM" bit doesn't fly.

I think what Itaz was impling was crowd control in endgame situations. Which seemed to be the basis of your SCH CC post. In which case I agree with Itaz, more specifically on the knowledge of your sleeps, and that sometimes your safest bet is to wake up the mobs with a quick stonega, and reaply sleepga to safely reset the timer.

Although im dispointed he didnt give a shout out to the WHM's with repose, a light based Sleep 2 is a welcome addition to any CC team IMO. perhaps it just slipped your mind.

When it comes down to it CC is a party concern, wether its a bindga, sleepga, to single target, to shadowbind many jobs play an integral part in the CC department. (ie. a THF who ranges a link then flees to the zone.)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

[quote=Omgwtfbbqkitten;771215] So what you're saying is, between that Stonega, you sleep it, right? >.> Yeah, that's really intricate.

Ok, I'm sorry, but I had to laugh at that. I mean, I respect that just sleeping mobs is much more complex than it seems, but saying "I don't just have sleepga, I can sleep them individually too!" just tickles my funny bone.

lol. I guess I didn't explain it very well.

The intricacy is at which sleep you choose to use in any given situation.

If one critter wakes up, do you Sleep I? Can you target it in time in the crowd, or would it come after you and interrupt your cast since your stoneskin is down? Or, would you blow Sleega, knowing that it doesn't override the existing Sleep and Sleepga, and lost the spell for the recast duration?

If two critters wake up, do you use both Sleep I and II? Or will you not have enough time for two Sleep, and need to blow Sleepga? And, etc.

Sleep, Sleep II, Sleepga--sounds very simple with just three spells, but it's always decisions made on the fly, and have real consequences. Adding in Gravity and Bind, crowd control on RDM can get pretty exciting.

Yes, but you're also forgetting about Alacrity. The recast for your next bind is also halved, this on top of the halved casting time of the current Bind Alacrity would be active with. This would make SCH even more effective at individual mob Binding than existing jobs, so it doesn't just have to be Manifestation as a CC tool, two uses of Alacrity would let you rotate Binds and Gravity or even sleeps more quickly than some jobs.

I thought we were talking about controlling a crowd? But, yes, the point for Alacrity is good, if controlling a single target--just didn't think it would be relevant.

Not really. If it were more intricate, I wouldn't have been so dissatisfied with it. And there are no CC tools a RDM has that I didn't have on RDM to the level I took it, so the "You haven't played high level RDM" bit doesn't fly. There's nothing your RDM could do at 75 that a level 51 or 60 RDM couldn't do in terms of CC at his level. The spells themselves aren't going to change.

OK, have you done substantial amount of crowd control work on your RDM? I suppose some people may find it easy, but I'm still looking looking to improve my skill after a few months of Dynamis and such.

Seriously, crowd control has been a lot of fun for me--I like it so much, I want to level Scholar just to experience it in a different way.

Stuff we already know, but you fail to note BRD's Lullabys have the weakest duration of all sleeps.

Yes, yes, stuff we already know. I was just typing out a quick comparison, don't fret.

Way to not include WHM, COR or BLU in there, by the way. Yeah Light-based sleeps stronger than Lullaby and the best steady stun-locker in the game aren't anything to write home about

Didn't mean to slight BLU, just forgot since I was thinking of the typical crowd control jobs I've seen. (Don't be so suspicious! Stuff are bound to be left out when coming up with a quick list!) Beyond having light and dark based AoE sleep, what are BLU's strong points and short comings as a crowd controller, by the way? I've only seen one instance of BLU used that way, and the guy was just spamming Sheep Song.

WHM and COR can't really control a crowd (normally), though Light Shot is very nice and WHMs frequently save my RDM with Repose--hate those slimes in Dynamis. ("Three is a crowd" rule, OK? Let's not spend too much time debate what should or should not be called "crowd control".)

In any case, it's a good idea to put SCH's crowd control capability in context of existing jobs: it's a wonderful addition for safety, and enables mass kiting in a manner never possible before.

It really depends on what's needed, SCH might have made kiting multiple mobs practical.

I think it's pretty much a fact that SCH can make group kiting a lot easier and safer, especially low manning events.

* * *

I wonder if it's possible to use SCH/RDM as solo crowd controller in KS30 Operation Desert Swarm. (i.e. SCH/RDM, tank, healer, DD x4)

On RDM/BLM, I managed with an alarming lack of safety margin, but perhaps SCH/RDM can do better, even though it'd suffer by comparison on Enfeebling Magic skill?

[MrMageo]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

even though it'd suffer by comparison on Enfeebling Magic skill?

Not at level 30 it shouldnt, your only 4 points out from the RDM skille (93 vs 89) This is pretty easily patched up with INT/MND gear, I could say it is quite possible Itaz

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

On RDM/BLM, I managed with an alarming lack of safety margin, but perhaps SCH/RDM can do better, even though it'd suffer by comparison on Enfeebling Magic skill?

I don't see how it would, B+ skill magic isn't exactly the same problem as B skill melee and even that is rather exaggerated by players. Additionally, the +skill gear out there for mages is a tad more abundant +skill gear for weapons. SCH AF body helps close the gap rather well seeing as it pushes +15 skill to Enfeebling, Dark and Elemental magic with Dark Arts active. Depending on where you are, there's also the Master Caster Bracelets to consider.

If there is a difference in Enfeebling, I don't think its going to be a very large one.

I'm looking at Elemental and Enfeebling merits mainly. I have my doubts how worthwhile meritting enhancing would be and don't think doing it just for stoneskin is that great of an idea. I may consider sparing a few merits for Dark, though.

[MrMageo]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

Enhancing would be good for enspells/barspells and thats about it. With 256 enhancing and 95 MND you cap SS so this is easily reached with errants and a few othe +MND peices.

[Karinya]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

Not at level 30 it shouldnt, your only 4 points out from the RDM skille (93 vs 89) This is pretty easily patched up with INT/MND gear, I could say it is quite possible Itaz

KS30 is uncapped, the 30 refers to the number of kindred seals needed to enter.

I've seen a SCH successfully kite the gears in AUM42, although I wasn't watching the tactics too closely. I'm not sure how that compares to ODS though.

Sleep isn't the only form of crowd control - it's just the most powerful one that is an option in most cases. Grav kiting requires a lot of room to work, if it works at all, and bind is inferior in effect (if the target has any ranged attacks or magic) *and* duration. Kiting away some mobs without enfeebles works in some fights, but since those mobs can usually still attack, it's not exactly favored except in fights where all the other options are unreliable or impossible.

There's one fight where dispel is a form of crowd control; I haven't seen SCH in it but I've heard it's awesome.

Problem #3 was there were no real endgame opportunites for Crowd Control as BST or BRD/BST. Maybe Alastor Antion. Maybe, but that's about all that pops to mind. SE likes to shitcan worthwhile charmable mobs for most endgame zones and camps (something they really, really, REALLY still need to fix in regards to BST).

I think BST was never intended to be so dependent on charm; what they *are* trying to fix is the notorious weakness of Call Beast. It's not so strong that you can solo VTs with it, but it's reliable and hassle free, which are useful traits when you'd otherwise have to make your whole party wait while you locate a new pet.

Charm when it *does* succeed is powerful enough that I'm not at all surprised that it's banned from most content intended to be challenging. How do you balance a fight so that charm isn't absolutely required, but is possible, but doesn't trivialize the fight if you do have it (like several BCNMs)? Especially considering that if you can charm, you can familiar?

[MrMageo]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

KS30 is uncapped

shit ya too late for me to night thought he was referring to BS

[Malacite]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

We'll just have to wait and see how SCH merits will be like. I'm willing to bet that they'll eventually get a Category II trait that gives them more stratagems in the same fashion as BLU's Assimilation trait.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Scholar: Crowd Control Evolved

I think BST was never intended to be so dependent on charm; what they *are* trying to fix is the notorious weakness of Call Beast. It's not so strong that you can solo VTs with it, but it's reliable and hassle free, which are useful traits when you'd otherwise have to make your whole party wait while you locate a new pet.

If this is the direction SE wants to go, there's still a lot of work that needs to be done on making high end jug pet materials available. The changes that have been made haven't been enough in that department. The other updates have been nice, but this is one concern that hasn't been fully addressed.

Charm when it *does* succeed is powerful enough that I'm not at all surprised that it's banned from most content intended to be challenging. How do you balance a fight so that charm isn't absolutely required, but is possible, but doesn't trivialize the fight if you do have it (like several BCNMs)? Especially considering that if you can charm, you can familiar?

It is poor design to weaken one job for a specific area and not penalize the other nineteen jobs at the same time in some way. If SE doesn't want us charming mobs in endgame zones, then they need to give the job native melee traits to compensate for it, or Accuracy Bonus at least. BST is the only melee job in the game I know of with A- skill in a weapon and no native melee job traits.