3/10 patch changes to scholar

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

What about BLM though? SCH can now do everything we can with a /BLM subjob except Warp. While we can nuke a tinsy, winsy bit better, I think a party would much rather have a Raise II just a minute away if they don't have a WHM healer.

Anyone that invites a job on the basis of which tier of raise they have fails at being responsible for thier own EXP buffing/capping.

SCH can't AM or AM II, they'll seldom -aga. T4 nukes are likely going to be more efficient for them anyway.

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I've started using Sublimation and storing it away in advance. Once the 25% HP limit is reached on Sublimation, Refresh and resting MP work again, so I'm kinda using SCH's Sublimation as a SAM would use Store TP. Store that MP away for use as needed, accept Refreshes as they come.

[Saren]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Onionsoldier: I agree that I think SE may possibly have gone a bit far but it's probably not going to be as bad as you are worrying about. Sch only gets B skill in elemental magic, that's less than a drk. Sure they get better mage gear than a drk would but the still have to get an extra 26 levels of skill at 75 before they can get a naked blms accuracy.

My decently geared level 75 blm friend still has to worry about resists with A+ skill, sch is going to need every bit of skill gear they can get to avoid frequent resists on nukes that aren't going to be as damaging as blm nukes to start with (and shouldn't be)

As for whm, lack of haste is going to dent sch appeal as a solo main healer significantly. Nin tanks without haste? Merit parties without haste? I don't think so. The AoE enspell buffs with good skill and multi hitting DDs might make up the damage you lose out from with haste but nothing scholar has will decrease Utsusemi recast timers.

sch + smn from 50 perhaps (though it would be really expensive and the smn probably wouldn't be doing much barring hastega and Elemental Siphon assuming they get it by then) or sch + brd from 60. Before 50 the only way to get a significant haste buff is to have a rdm or a whm with you and by 50 rdm is already pushing whm anyway.

No whm should be using anything but /sch really in exp now and by the time you get to merits you can get Sublimation from sub (and dispel) and you still have your stackable haste buff to add too so I don't think the effect to whm is going to be as great as I was worried it might be. Rdm is still preferred 48-75 as an exp party main healer and probably always will be. This scholar update just helped whm close the gap a little 70 +.

[Karinya]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

And I am not just worried about EXP situations. With a native Sleep II and the ability to -ga it, in addition to a higher Enfeebling skill then BLM, the only advantage BLM gets is Elemental Seal, which can be subbed!

So with the right subjob and two once-per-minute JAs (and much more mana and casting time, but it's not like casting time of a sleep could ever be important), 70+ SCH can kind of imitate something BLM gets natively?

Okay, lets talk gear-wise. How does a SCH's nukes match up to a BLM's?

BLM/SCH Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +32%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Sorcerer's Ring: +10%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Genie Weskit +7%
Valkryie's Trews: +5%
Zenith Mitts +1: +6%
Total MAB: +95%

SCH/BLM Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +24%
Ebullience: +20%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Yigit Set: + 11%
Total MAB: +90%

There you have it. A 5% MAB difference. Yes, it helps, but given the fact that SCH also gets Raise & Reraise II, Helixes, Storms, Erase, and Dispel without a subjob, they simply out-utilize us. Most of the BLM gear is miles harder to get then the SCH gear anyway. Valkyrie's Trews? Not likely.

More likely than Novio Earring, good grief. Almost the entirety of the two lists is identical to start with, and I don't know about you, but I think z-mitts and a jse you can buy are easier to get than an entire assault set (at 20k assault points per piece, that's about 100 assaults).

Plus the yigit set isn't really a practical option for sch anyway; they'd have to give up the only skill af they *do* get (which is half as much as the skill af+relic blms get).

Anyway, this is a dishonest comparison; you're comparing a once-per-minute (at best) JA to the MAB the BLM has *all the time* (well, all the time that the various latents are active).

Lets take it a step further though, shall we? Scholar, as mentioned previously, gets the Storm-Spells. Now, with proper Storm effect active and an Elemental Obi, Scholar gets another 10% MAB unconditionally. BLM, on the other hand, only can get a 2% MAB from a belt, which also gives a Slow+5% effect. This gives SCH a MAB of 100%, while we get 97%. There. Right there. They are better nukers then us. BLM the nuking king? Not any more.

Wow, that's even more dishonest than the previous comparison. Storms can be cast *on other players*, including BLMs, who can (and often do) wear obis of their own. Storms/obis are in no way an advantage for SCH (other than it'll be kind of nice to have one SCH per BLM party). Allowing storm on the BLM puts them up to 105% *constantly*, while a SCH has only 80% with storm (rising to 100% during Ebullience). And the SCH has to burn a stratagem, time, and MP to put the storm on the whole party. They'll be too busy being the BLMs' slave to have a chance to compete with them.

As for AM II, you are right, you can argue MP efficency. Because it sucks. About +30% base damage, for +100% cost over a Tier IV nuke? not to mention the insane cast and recast times.

Which a blm/sch can get over with parsimony and alacrity, since they don't have to use all their stratagems just to stay within shouting distance of a blm's all-the-time MAB. (To say nothing of int and skill, which is where sch is really going to fail as an hnm nuker. A base skill gap of over 20 points *plus* less available skill gear is going to be ugly.)

A job that specializes in magical damage should not need to merit to keep up with a situational jack-of-all trades job. Ever.

A sch that never shifts out of dark arts (to maintain addendum) while spending every single stratagem charge on ebullience isn't much of a jack of all trades.

[Luna]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

How would Apollo's Staff help SCH? It's the same cure potency as Light Staff, right?

Or were you planning on MB'ing with Banish frequently? ._.

MB'ing yes, but not with banish, with Luminohelix I think thats how it is spelled, its the Light based Helix SCH gets at 75. I am also trying to get 2.4mil together to get the remaining +1 staves, although I might not waste my time getting anything but Thunder staff, Ice staff, Dark staff+1 since I wont really be using any other T4's unless its a special occasion

[Pteryx]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I've started using Sublimation and storing it away in advance. Once the 25% HP limit is reached on Sublimation, Refresh and resting MP work again, so I'm kinda using SCH's Sublimation as a SAM would use Store TP. Store that MP away for use as needed, accept Refreshes as they come.

I call bullshit on Refresh working again when Sublimation is full. I tried to Refresh myself on RDM/SCH once Sublimation hit the cap just last night and it still didn't work (healing does, though). This pisses me off because it makes SCH and RDM enemies. I now have to be the bad guy telling people not to use their own JAs.

One thing that is noteworthy is that Stoneskin prevents Sublimation damage and thus allows you to rest. We'll see whether SE changes this. -- Pteryx

[Luna]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

So with the right subjob and two once-per-minute JAs (and much more mana and casting time, but it's not like casting time of a sleep could ever be important), 70+ SCH can kind of imitate something BLM gets natively?

More likely than Novio Earring, good grief. Almost the entirety of the two lists is identical to start with, and I don't know about you, but I think z-mitts and a jse you can buy are easier to get than an entire assault set (at 20k assault points per piece, that's about 100 assaults).

Plus the yigit set isn't really a practical option for sch anyway; they'd have to give up the only skill af they *do* get (which is half as much as the skill af+relic blms get).

Anyway, this is a dishonest comparison; you're comparing a once-per-minute (at best) JA to the MAB the BLM has *all the time* (well, all the time that the various latents are active).

Wow, that's even more dishonest than the previous comparison. Storms can be cast *on other players*, including BLMs, who can (and often do) wear obis of their own. Storms/obis are in no way an advantage for SCH (other than it'll be kind of nice to have one SCH per BLM party). Allowing storm on the BLM puts them up to 105% *constantly*, while a SCH has only 80% with storm (rising to 100% during Ebullience). And the SCH has to burn a stratagem, time, and MP to put the storm on the whole party. They'll be too busy being the BLMs' slave to have a chance to compete with them.

Which a blm/sch can get over with parsimony and alacrity, since they don't have to use all their stratagems just to stay within shouting distance of a blm's all-the-time MAB. (To say nothing of int and skill, which is where sch is really going to fail as an hnm nuker. A base skill gap of over 20 points *plus* less available skill gear is going to be ugly.)

A sch that never shifts out of dark arts (to maintain addendum) while spending every single stratagem charge on ebullience isn't much of a jack of all trades.

Why are you trying to prove this guy wrong? you have no proof that what he's saying is not true. and for one Yigit set is the best set of gear SCH can get atm sure you have the af but that can easily be macro'd in and out, and the 1min recast time for the stratagems? that is a hell of a lot shorter than you think its only 60 seconds, you can spend 40 seconds just sitting to heal half your mp, and 10-20 seconds tossing one or two cures into the alliance/party SCH is def one of the second best nukers in the game, and they dont get a B skill in elemental magic they get a B+ for the person who stated that earlier. That is not far off, not to mention Klimaform which is SCH's af scroll (in replacement for the af weapon) it gives magic Accuracy to the magic spell casted that matches the weather currently on the player, and with the new update the weather spells have a really fast casting time. Sure BLM will alaways be the best nuker only b/c of AM and AMII, but SCH sure as hell is not far behind and i'm really getting sick of ppl belittling BLM and SCH throughout this whole thread b/c like it or not they share T4 spells but that does not mean one is better than the other they both are very different jobs, SCH is meant to be a switch job it is meant to be second best at WHM skill and second best at BLM skill nothing you say or complain about is going to change that, it is what the job was designed for, so throwing RDM, BLM, WHM around trying to disprove this "theory" is only making yourself look like an idiot. BLM > SCH > everything els, WHM > SCH > Everything els, and thats basically final sitting here number crunching and argueing over how much MAB each job gets isn't going to disprove the fact that SCH is in fact 2nd best at both Jobs. No BLM and WHM are not going to get shoved around and ignored there are many things such as protect V, shell V, AM, AMII, Raise III, Reraise III, Teleport spells, merits, Warp II, Sleepga, Sleepga II, Repose, Cure V, Curaga I+, Divine seal, elemental seal etc. I mean sure SCH can sub those and get the ja's and maybe warp but so can every other mage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I call bullshit on Refresh working again when Sublimation is full. I tried to Refresh myself on RDM/SCH once Sublimation hit the cap just last night and it still didn't work (healing does, though). This pisses me off because it makes SCH and RDM enemies. I now have to be the bad guy telling people not to use their own JAs.

One thing that is noteworthy is that Stoneskin prevents Sublimation damage and thus allows you to rest. We'll see whether SE changes this. -- Pteryx

"I tried it on RDM/SCH"

What if the effect is altered when subbed. RDM main with Refresh + Sublimation active at the same timeis arguably very broken.

I've just been running around SCH main with Sigil Refresh and Sublimation active at the same time. Latent Refresh ticked up when HP went down.

Got Sleepga IIed in Campaign, Sublimation broke the sleep effect instantly.

I'd wager once I get Stoneskin I can rest with Sublimation active.

At any rate, more testing still needs to be done before RDMs stop acting like spazmos (again).

[Luna]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

"I tried it on RDM/SCH"

What if the effect is altered when subbed. RDM main with Refresh + Sublimation active at the same timeis arguably very broken.

I've just been running around SCH main with Sigil Refresh and Sublimation active at the same time. Latent Refresh ticked up when HP went down.

Got Sleepga IIed in Campaign, Sublimation broke the sleep effect instantly.

I'd wager once I get Stoneskin I can rest with Sublimation active.

At any rate, more testing still needs to be done before RDMs stop acting like spazmos (again).

So your saying that if I have Stoneskin up and active I can actually /heal while sublimination is storing mp? That would actually solve all my problems with Sublimination since SCH should be stuck in the BLM pt, and the BLM pt should have a BRD instead of a RDM :3

[Celeal]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

In nowadays when a MP nuker is invited to group for nuking, it is rare to invite one and only one nuker (unless the players are not available). It usually comes with an army of nukers (multiple BLM, multiple SMN, etc).

It make a lot of sense to pack one SCH + multiple BLM in a group, instead of replacing all BLM with SCH.

Technically, BLM/SCH is a possible hybrid nuker-healer.

[Coinspinner]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Tier 4 on SCH is totally overboard IMO, but to say that BLM is out of a job is stretching things.

The only time the comparison matters, you will likely have the SCH in a BLM PT for Weather buffs anyway. Accession + Storm is going to remove Addendum: Black, IE you lose 2 minutes worth of charges if you want storms and Tier 4. Storms used to last 2 minutes, supposedly this has been increased a bit. A SCH might have Ebullience for some of his spells, but not all. Then there's Elemental Magic skill. SCH has to give quite a lot of INT and MAB to reach an acceptable level. And doesn't have access to some of the best stuff, Morrigan's, Zenith, Igqira, etc. Klimaform will help with accuracy, but that's for one element only.

In crowd control situations, SCH is there to assist the sleep crew with his Graviga. In party utility, yeah, no kidding, BLM has always been kinda crappy at that. I've been asking for more and better utilities for BLM since '04.
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So your saying that if I have Stoneskin up and active I can actually /heal while sublimination is storing mp? That would actually solve all my problems with Sublimination since SCH should be stuck in the BLM pt, and the BLM pt should have a BRD instead of a RDM :3

Well it should have a COR really, but beggars can't be choosers.
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Technically, BLM/SCH is a possible hybrid nuker-healer.

Sublimation aside, how is it better than BLM/WHM? They get spells later and have no self-defense, which a nuker+healer badly needs.

[Luna]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Tier 4 on SCH is totally overboard IMO, but to say that BLM is out of a job is stretching things.

I really dont think its as horrible as everyone is making it out to be, BLM is still BLM, and WHM is still WHM, T4 nukes for a SCH fits the job very well without that SCH was really nothing all too special except it had mana and could heal or do an AoE every 4 minutes, even though I loved the job before the update I am not afraid to admit SCH was a bit meh compared to RDM,BLM,WHM but now that SCH gets some of the spells its meant to have like Raise II, and T4 nukes I think it really completes the job and allows it to function to its full potential.

[nanatsu]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Why are you trying to prove this guy wrong? you have no proof that what he's saying is not true. and for one Yigit set is the best set of gear SCH can get atm sure you have the af but that can easily be macro'd in and out, and the 1min recast time for the stratagems? ....etc

Why is she is trying to counter the guy's arguments? His stance is that SCH is stepping on BLMs shoes too much and even outclasses BLM in the one thing BLMs are supposed to be the best at. Do you really want all BLMs to suddenly believe that SCH is a better nuker than a BLM? That SCH is broken and needs to be nerfed? Since you're the resident advocate of SCH as the best job evar I'd think you wouldn't want people to think that way about SCH. Karinya's goal is to downplay those issues before they get out of hand. Not that I agree with her or anything but the point is to help the view of the SCH job not harm it. Even if she only wanted to point out inconsistencies in his argument, it still HELPS your cause because of the reasons I pointed out above.

You said you don't like people belittling SCH and BLM and you seem to want people to be okay with both jobs, but it doesn't look like Onionsoldier is ok with SCHs nuking capability. Onionsoldier isn't happy with SCH. You're taking his side. You say SCH is your favorite job and you say you don't want people belittling mage jobs. Karinya isn't doing that in the least. Just whose side are you on?

If Onionsoldier's claims are totally true... that SCH is a BETTER nuker than BLM... then SCH is indeed broken and needs to be nerfed. Is that what you want?

[Luna]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Why is she is trying to counter the guy's arguments? His stance is that SCH is stepping on BLMs shoes too much and even outclasses BLM in the one thing BLMs are supposed to be the best at. Do you really want all BLMs to suddenly believe that SCH is a better nuker than a BLM? That SCH is broken and needs to be nerfed? Since you're the resident advocate of SCH as the best job evar I'd think you wouldn't want people to think that way about SCH. Karinya's goal is to downplay those issues before they get out of hand. Not that I agree with her or anything but the point is to help the view of the SCH job not harm it. Even if she only wanted to point out inconsistencies in his argument, it still HELPS your cause because of the reasons I pointed out above.

You said you don't like people belittling SCH and BLM and you seem to want people to be okay with both jobs, but it doesn't look like Onionsoldier is ok with SCHs nuking capability. Onionsoldier isn't happy with SCH. You're taking his side. You say SCH is your favorite job and you say you don't want people belittling mage jobs. Karinya isn't doing that in the least. Just whose side are you on?

If Onionsoldier's claims are totally true... that SCH is a BETTER nuker than BLM... then SCH is indeed broken and needs to be nerfed. Is that what you want?

Ok 1. I never said SCH was the best job ever 2. SCH is like any other job it has what it was intended for and it can be used in many different ways. 3. Complaining that BLM and or WHM is out of a job b/c of SCH is just idiocy seriously come on people? 4. I don't agree that SCH is a better nuker than BLM nor do I agree that SCH should be nerfed, 5. Seriously you made no sense in your post whatsoever next time make your point a bit more clear. 6. If you read into what I am saying half of what you just said about me is far from true and wasn't present in any of my posts. Last but not least 7. SCH IS NOT A BLM, nor is SCH A WHM!! SCH is the bridge betwene both it is able to switch roles it was intended to be SECOND BEST at both roles, it was not meant to "step on" BLM or WHM's feet, and should not be treated as so seriously I bet half of you who are saying this 1. dont have SCH past lvl 37, 2. are either a BLM or a WHM, and 3. Know nothing about the job other than whats written on paper, how about you give the job a try and see what you think of it instead of relying on what everyone els is saying since after all its all based on what "should could" happen instead of what actually "does" happen with full exp in lvling the job, exp in the job > what is on paper its that simple.

[Pteryx]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I've just been running around SCH main with Sigil Refresh and Sublimation active at the same time.

There's a difference here, though: Sanction/Sigil Refresh is not the Refresh status. It doesn't take up the spot that juices and RDM's Refresh spell do. Neither do Ballad or Evoker's Roll; as far as I know, those are also compatible with Sublimation. Thus, you running around with Sigil Refresh does not prove that the spell Refresh can be cast on you, or that you can drink juice. My complaint is that I can't cast Refresh on someone under either form of Sublimation, and that's going to lead to conflict between RDMs and SCHs (and /SCHs), where before the two jobs were complementary. -- Pteryx

[nanatsu]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Ok 1. I never said SCH was the best job ever 2. SCH is like any other job it has what it was intended for and it can be used in many different ways. 3. Complaining that BLM and or WHM is out of a job b/c of SCH is just idiocy seriously come on people? 4. I don't agree that SCH is a better nuker than BLM nor do I agree that SCH should be nerfed, 5. Seriously you made no sense in your post whatsoever next time make your point a bit more clear. 6. If you read into what I am saying half of what you just said about me is far from true and wasn't present in any of my posts. Last but not least 7. SCH IS NOT A BLM, nor is SCH A WHM!! SCH is the bridge betwene both it is able to switch roles it was intended to be SECOND BEST at both roles, it was not meant to "step on" BLM or WHM's feet, and should not be treated as so seriously I bet half of you who are saying this 1. dont have SCH past lvl 37, 2. are either a BLM or a WHM, and 3. Know nothing about the job other than whats written on paper, how about you give the job a try and see what you think of it instead of relying on what everyone els is saying since after all its all based on what "should could" happen instead of what actually "does" happen with full exp in lvling the job, exp in the job > what is on paper its that simple.

*sigh* Let me make it more clear then.

1. You're confused about Karinya's intentions.

2. Of course you don't believe in the things I said about SCH being better than BLM. What Onionsoldier was saying and your response to Karinya didn't match up at ALL. I said what I said to show you that you were taking what Karinya was saying the wrong way. I pointed out those things about SCH and BLM and asked you "Do you really believe that?" In your head your answer was supposed to be "No." and you were supposed to realize that Karinya is NOT a moron.

3. Karinya was only trying to help by trying to disprove Onionsoldier who doesn't like what's going on with SCH in the first place!

4. You're still taking things the wrong way!

Saying that you're the advocate of SCH as the best job evar was just my way of saying you really like SCH. It wasn't intended to be taken literally or seriously, since I'm not writing an essay or anything. Which leads me to believe you're going to continue to misunderstand and take things the wrong way so... I'm just gonna leave it alone. The kind of people showing up on the forums lately is starting to make me feel tired...