3/10 patch changes to scholar

[Karinya]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

SCH can't enfeeble, except through subjob. And they can't do all of those things at once because of limited stratagems. And they can't provide Sublimation to others. And they can't Haste (which is still highly desirable, since the cap was set quite high).

There's still plenty of uses for RDMs.

[Neomage]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

What about BLM though? SCH can now do everything we can with a /BLM subjob except Warp. While we can nuke a tinsy, winsy bit better, I think a party would much rather have a Raise II just a minute away if they don't have a WHM healer.

[Luna]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

SCH can't enfeeble, except through subjob. And they can't do all of those things at once because of limited stratagems. And they can't provide Sublimation to others. And they can't Haste (which is still highly desirable, since the cap was set quite high).

There's still plenty of uses for RDMs.

I hardly call the stratagems limited, I never seem to have a problem with them and I always have more than enough to my disposal especially now, I loved SCH even before the update :3 but now after it, I love it even more! and my endgame LS is excited to see how well SCH performs in endgame! I am also really happy that SCH got T4 nukes, and some WHM ability's as well, It really helps SCH to stand out and gives it a bit more of a niche, I also wanted to point out that if you have a RDM in your pt you might not want to use Sublimination lol since obviously a RDM's refresh is better since you can also heal your mp back and if you have the right gear heal it back pretty darn quickly.

I really love this update and I'm super excited to get my SCH to 75 I have some of the best gear for it including vermy, ugg pendant, jet seraweels, jungle rope, rainbow cape, mithra rse feet, astral earring, tama's ring, ether ring, and apollo's staff :3 but i'm working my way to get all +1 staves someday so that I can be super pimp, i'm also trying to get Yigit gear since it seems to be the best endgame gear for SCH yet!

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I am also really happy that SCH got T4 nukes, and some WHM ability's as well, It really helps SCH to stand out and gives it a bit more of a niche,

Well, um... Tier IV nukes gives Scholar a big opening to Black Mage's niche, while all the White Mage goodies gives exp parties one less reason to get a WHM ("Get the SCH for healer; better MP flow that way.")

S-E didn't so much create a new niche for SCH as kicking the BLM in the shin and WHM between the legs to shove them aside and make room for SCH. ._.

I guess it's great for people who are tired of playing BLM and WHM and want a job which can essentially do both, with a great deal more complexity.

Not that I don't appreciate all the goodies as a SCH43, but looks like my BLM56 will just have to solo/duo to 75, and it's finally time to sell any and every WHM44 gear I don't need for SCH and BLM. (Kinda sad; I was about to level WHM again for Raise II; want to be able to tele out and give R2 to any LS members who needs it when I'm idling in mog house.)

We'll just have to see how well SCH manages the domination of mage-dom.

I have some of the best gear for it including vermy, ugg pendant, jet seraweels, jungle rope, rainbow cape, mithra rse feet, astral earring, tama's ring, ether ring, and apollo's staff :3 but i'm working my way to get all +1 staves someday so that I can be super pimp, i'm also trying to get Yigit gear since it seems to be the best endgame gear for SCH yet!

How would Apollo's Staff help SCH? It's the same cure potency as Light Staff, right?

Or were you planning on MB'ing with Banish frequently? ._.

[Gobo]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

How would Apollo's Staff help SCH? It's the same cure potency as Light Staff, right?

Or were you planning on MB'ing with Banish frequently? ._.

Luminohelix

[Neomage]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I hardly call the stratagems limited, I never seem to have a problem with them and I always have more than enough to my disposal especially now, I loved SCH even before the update :3 but now after it, I love it even more! and my endgame LS is excited to see how well SCH performs in endgame! I am also really happy that SCH got T4 nukes, and some WHM ability's as well, It really helps SCH to stand out and gives it a bit more of a niche, I also wanted to point out that if you have a RDM in your pt you might not want to use Sublimination lol since obviously a RDM's refresh is better since you can also heal your mp back and if you have the right gear heal it back pretty darn quickly.

I really love this update and I'm super excited to get my SCH to 75 I have some of the best gear for it including vermy, ugg pendant, jet seraweels, jungle rope, rainbow cape, mithra rse feet, astral earring, tama's ring, ether ring, and apollo's staff :3 but i'm working my way to get all +1 staves someday so that I can be super pimp, i'm also trying to get Yigit gear since it seems to be the best endgame gear for SCH yet!

I understand why you would be happy for everything SCH got this update, but if you really think about it, don't you feel it is a little unfair to BLM and WHM? RDM still hold their niche with enfeebling and refresh/haste, but now, WHM only has a bit higher Raise and Cures, while BLM just has.... Warp. I would be all for this if SE let us get Tier V spells, or gave WHM the Divine Veil/Seal Seperation + Conserve MP they have always wanted, but we only got new trnsport spells from this update. Nice toys, yet, but do they improve our situation at all?

While BLMs, of course, still have Manaburns(which I never really liked anyway, to boring. I much prefer the traditional SC + MB Party), SCH can now substitute in almost any situation a BLM would be desirable. Need Sleep? No problem, SCH can come in /BLM and Elemental Seal + Sleepga II, Just like us. Magic damage needed? SCH has nearly matched our potency, while they have 8 less native MAB, they get a +20 MAB spell every minute now. And our unique DoTs, near-exclusive spikes, and other spells are all availible just by subbing BLM. Really, we have nothing left now. In addition, Scholars get the Helix spells, something BLMs could only dream about having, while still having access to everything else! Sure, we can do it a tiny bit better they you, but any party would rather have someone who can use the cost-effective Helix spells and switch to a pseudo-WHM in under a minute and toss out Raise IIs.

Now, I am not saying SCH should get the spells taken away. That would be unfair for the people who alreayd bought them for SCH, but don't have another job leveled that can use them. I am just saying they need to be a little harder to access. Make the higher Addendums meritable, add a MP cost penalty, or put the enhanced spellbook on a five-minute timer. One stratagem for two hours though, that is just to much.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Luminohelix

Heh. Totally skipped my mind. Thanks.

[ItachiKujata]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

all this talk about SCH hurting BLM and WHM is all just paranoia... RDMs will still be the king of merit party healers because of refresh, that's not going to change... WHM will still be desirable for endgame events like it always has... BLM is still the nuking king and I doubt SCH will change that at all...

what SCH does bring to the table is flexibility for both xp parties and end game events. It also adds an extra depth of strategy for crowd control since it can do graviga and bindga. Low man events where you need more healing, a SCH can quickly switch roles and now be a healer and still do some good DoT dmg now and then. It's a pretty versatile class if you think about it and these changes only enable SCH to be that utility type mage class even better... if anything they make RDM just a refresh/enfeeble bot...

[Zempten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

all this talk about SCH hurting BLM and WHM is all just paranoia... RDMs will still be the king of merit party healers because of refresh, that's not going to change... WHM will still be desirable for endgame events like it always has... BLM is still the nuking king and I doubt SCH will change that at all...

what SCH does bring to the table is flexibility for both xp parties and end game events. It also adds an extra depth of strategy for crowd control since it can do graviga and bindga. Low man events where you need more healing, a SCH can quickly switch roles and now be a healer and still do some good DoT dmg now and then. It's a pretty versatile class if you think about it and these changes only enable SCH to be that utility type mage class even better... if anything they make RDM just a refresh/enfeeble bot...

/agree

[Neomage]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

BLM is still the nuking king and I doubt SCH will change that at all...

Explain? Please tell me, what right now, Black Mage has over Scholar. There are a few differences yes, but SCH gets most of what we made out living on. The only things I see that BLM still retain, are -aga nukes, which have limited use, and in general, are rather inefficient.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

all this talk about SCH hurting BLM and WHM is all just paranoia... RDMs will still be the king of merit party healers because of refresh, that's not going to change... WHM will still be desirable for endgame events like it always has... BLM is still the nuking king and I doubt SCH will change that at all...

The people who are worried are most concerned about the exp/merit situation. RDM has already marginalized WHM to some degree, SCH now compete squarely with WHM. (BLM isn't as much of a concern, since they've been mostly eliminated from exp as is. ) No one is terrible concerned about replacing WHM in endgame, I think, though tier IV now somewhat puts BLMs on the line to prove their worth.

For all the talk of flexibility, SCH is 80% about stealing WHM's and BLM's spell list (and Gravity from RDM), and 20% about how to manage the complexity of juggling the Arts and Stratagems to the best use in each situation.

That gets uncomfortably close to job blending, at least for me. The blurring of distinctions between jobs is ultimately detrimental to any RPG in the long run, even an MMORPG.

if anything they make RDM just a refresh/enfeeble bot...

Nah. We'll tank instead. Blind-spamming plus bar-spamming equals the winner for the enmity game.

[ItachiKujata]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Explain? Please tell me, what right now, Black Mage has over Scholar. There are a few differences yes, but SCH gets most of what we made out living on. The only things I see that BLM still retain, are -aga nukes, which have limited use, and in general, are rather inefficient.

well for one thing BLMs have AMII and -aga nukes. You can argue MP efficiency but when it comes down to just DMG and manaburning, I think BLMs will still win out. BLMs also have access to better gear sets which have more elemental skill gear, etc... I'm willing to bet that BLMs will be much more effective on endgame situations in terms of resist rates. I guess i'll believe the hype of SCH when I see it... and you act like now that these changes are in place, BLMs won't be wanted for anything lol... it's not like suddenly everyone's going to level SCH... my LS has maybe 3 SCH right now and like a dozen BLMs...

to IfritnoItazura:

That stealing from WHM/BLM/RDM is what makes SCH so flexible lol... see RDMs tanking... that's job blending right there =P

[Neomage]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

And for those of you who still think SCH isn't encroaching on other mage's territory...

I hardly call the stratagems limited, I never seem to have a problem with them and I always have more than enough to my disposal

There. Right from the Scholar's mouth. Stratagems are so easy to come by, Addendum isn't a major obstacle at all.

I am also really happy that SCH got T4 nukes, and some WHM ability's as well

See? They are directly stealing spells from other mage jobs. Previously, if someone needed Erase or -Nas, they would need a WHM, or at the very least, /WHM. Now, SCH/Anything or Anything/SCH gets these natively with just an arts switch and a stratagem, something not to hard to come by. And I am not just worried about EXP situations. With a native Sleep II and the ability to -ga it, in addition to a higher Enfeebling skill then BLM, the only advantage BLM gets is Elemental Seal, which can be subbed!

I really love this update and I'm super excited to get my SCH to 75 I have some of the best gear for it [...] i'm also trying to get Yigit gear since it seems to be the best endgame gear for SCH yet!

Okay, lets talk gear-wise. How does a SCH's nukes match up to a BLM's?

BLM/SCH Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +32%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Sorcerer's Ring: +10%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Genie Weskit +7%
Valkryie's Trews: +5%
Zenith Mitts +1: +6%
Total MAB: +95%

SCH/BLM Ultimate MAB:
Native MAB: +24%
Ebullience: +20%
H.Q. Stave: +15%
Moldavite Earring: +5%
Novio Earring: +7%
Uggalepih Pendant: +8%
Yigit Set: + 11%
Total MAB: +90%

There you have it. A 5% MAB difference. Yes, it helps, but given the fact that SCH also gets Raise & Reraise II, Helixes, Storms, Erase, and Dispel without a subjob, they simply out-utilize us. Most of the BLM gear is miles harder to get then the SCH gear anyway. Valkyrie's Trews? Not likely.

Lets take it a step further though, shall we? Scholar, as mentioned previously, gets the Storm-Spells. Now, with proper Storm effect active and an Elemental Obi, Scholar gets another 10% MAB unconditionally. BLM, on the other hand, only can get a 2% MAB from a belt, which also gives a Slow+5% effect. This gives SCH a MAB of 100%, while we get 97%. There. Right there. They are better nukers then us. BLM the nuking king? Not any more.

As for AM II, you are right, you can argue MP efficency. Because it sucks. About +30% base damage, for +100% cost over a Tier IV nuke? not to mention the insane cast and recast times. But you don't want to argue that. Despire that MP Conservation is almost half of a mage's job, you say it doesn't matter. So lets take it out of the equation. What are we left with? Merits. Black Mage can not get AM II or Elemental Proficiency traits without meriting. The problem is that SCH can tie or surpass us without them . That is a problem. A job that specializes in magical damage should not need to merit to keep up with a situational jack-of-all trades job. Ever.

[Celeal]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

With casting one spell at a time, X amount of MP, Y amount of MP recovery, I doubt a SCH can do everything all at once at the same time.

Team up! I am sure SCH + BLM together will create value.

[ItachiKujata]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

again you're looking at MAB which is ok but if you get resisted it doesn't matter... and all that for tier IV nukes... AM II is not mp efficient but guess what? BLM still use it a lot and it's still useful... especially if you need to kill something quick on a time nuke.

realistically you're looking at SCH being secondary nukers and really i'd use them more for crowd control if anything and leave the BLMs to nuke. I guess I just don't see SCH hurting anything but bringing more options to the table... and I don't see what all the fuss is really about... are you just annoyed that BLMs didn't get much with this update?