3/10 patch changes to scholar

[Truece]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

• Sublimation + Refresh + Convert would make RDM/SCH incredibly overpowered.

It isn't Refresh + Sublimation which is overpowered, but Convert + Sublimation.

• The system may consider Sublimation as Refresh. The update didn't address this so we can only assume at this point that SE must have decided the fact RDMs would have exploited the hell out of Refresh + Sublimation + Convert.

But it isn't only RDMs that are affected by this. This seems to have a greater impact on other mages, who now have to choose between using their job abilities to support themselves, or in the case where a RDM is present, allowing the RDM to refresh them.

• Evoker's Roll and Ballad are different forms or Refresh, SE would have to totally re-engineer the way ALL songs and Rolls function to exempt them from sublimation. Phantom Rolls are affected by job presence and varying values. The potency of songs are determined by skill and instruments. Altering how BRD and COR work to make RDMs feel better would be the most stupid idea ever.

What difference does it make if the program checks to see if Sublimation is active for a character, and then permit Ballad/Evoker's Roll/Refresh to take effect? You make it seem like they'd have to do a massive overhaul to their code to make the changes to songs/rolls. The changes aren't going to be any different than the way that they check to see if Sublimation is active. They are obviously making this check when Refresh lands on a character, what's the difference in checking when Ballad/Evoker's roll lands on a character as well?

If Sublimation_Active then not (Refresh/Ballad I/Ballad II/Evoker's Roll)

• RDMs are much, much, much more common than BRDs or CORs.

Job popularity is not a valid reason to implement game mechanics like this. I don't think the developers approach a potential change like "... So, should we give XXX this new ability? Sure, why not? Only 2% of the players play that job anyways!"

• Solutions: RDM could sub /BRD or /SCH users could just not use Sublimation with RDM present.

/SCH still has a lot to offer most mages in a party setting.

If SE wanted to make parties less dependent on MP support, then they need to make it so that no other MP recovery (outside of Auto-Refresh) works when Sublimation is active.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Sublimation is not Refresh--it has it own icon, and it's a job ability which "toggles" HP->MP conversion on/off, unlike anything else in the game. While it's "on", it doesn't replenish the MP like Refresh (or Evoker's Roll or Ballad) at all--it's actually incrementing some hidden counter for the amount of MP it will restore upon being turned "off", while acting like a separate Poison-like effect.

It's likely no more work for the Devs to kill off or prevent Ballad or Evoker's Roll than it is to kill off or prevent Refresh from being working; it should be almost trivial to write that into code.

At this point, simply not enough information is available to know whether the conflict between Sublimation and Refresh alone is:
1. A bug with Sublimation and Refresh.
2. Intentional, for some purpose.
3. A bug with Sublimation with Ballad and Evoker's Roll.

Then again, maybe S-E just hates Refresh. It's the only form of MP recovery status which takes MP to get. It overrides juices, unlike others which stack with juices. It takes more time to cover two people with Refresh (between cast time and recast time) than using Evoker's Roll or Ballad x2 to cover the whole party. Bard gets the first Ballad at Lv.25, Corsair gets Evoker's at Lv.40, while Red Mage has to wait until Lv.41--then discovered it's really hard on the RDM's MP supply to cover everyone with it at Lv.41.

The latest could be just one more kick in the shin for Refresh. Possibly.

[Callisto]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Honestly I still think Sublimation will work fine as RDM/SCH, if nothing else, I can't be the only person that has come to a point in a big fight where I hit 38 MP, Refresh wears off, and I still have 1-2 minutes on Convert. If nothing else it's a nice backup plan for if you're running low and don't want to spare that 40 MP, and you can just put up SS for 20some, pop Sublimation for a bit, and get a couple hundred back, leaving yourself out of the Refresh order for a round.

[Luna]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

If SE wanted to make parties less dependent on MP support, then they need to make it so that no other MP recovery (outside of Auto-Refresh) works when Sublimation is active.

I really dont think that is going to happen, They are either going to leave it the way it is or change it so that refresh does work when sublimination is up.

I wanted to know if anyone has tried out Klimaform + weather + helix and would be able to tell me not the DoT but the initial dmg it does on HNM, NM or basically any mob stronger than normal exp/merip mobs.

Honestly I still think Sublimation will work fine as RDM/SCH, if nothing else, I can't be the only person that has come to a point in a big fight where I hit 38 MP, Refresh wears off, and I still have 1-2 minutes on Convert. If nothing else it's a nice backup plan for if you're running low and don't want to spare that 40 MP, and you can just put up SS for 20some, pop Sublimation for a bit, and get a couple hundred back, leaving yourself out of the Refresh order for a round.

TBH you'd get your mp back a lot quicker just by eating a cookie and /heal, RDM/SCH is useless. From the time it takes to actually cast SS for a RDM wouldnt it be quicker to sit and /heal for that time and get up and toss a cure IV if you need to instad of wasting that extra mp you have on SS?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Sublimation is not Refresh--it has it own icon, and it's a job ability which "toggles" HP->MP conversion on/off, unlike anything else in the game. While it's "on", it doesn't replenish the MP like Refresh (or Evoker's Roll or Ballad) at all--it's actually incrementing some hidden counter for the amount of MP it will restore upon being turned "off", while acting like a separate Poison-like effect.

The status icon argument again. I know what Sublimation does.

If Sublimation has its own and Refresh has its own icon, why don't they stack? Either SE doesn't want them to or Sublimation is a retroactive Refresh/Convert ability at the expense of your HP.

It's likely no more work for the Devs to kill off or prevent Ballad or Evoker's Roll than it is to kill off or prevent Refresh from being working; it should be almost trivial to write that into code.

You can't say that for certain. The functions of Rolls and Songs follow very different criteria than Refresh. Additionally, one type isn't even considered magic, but a job ability.

At this point, simply not enough information is available to know whether the conflict between Sublimation and Refresh alone is:
1. A bug with Sublimation and Refresh.
2. Intentional, for some purpose.
3. A bug with Sublimation with Ballad and Evoker's Roll.

If it was a bug, it likely would have been at the top of the list of what got fixed today. Its not there at all. Which leaves you with your #2 theory and my theory that is actually counted as Refresh. #2 is more likely, but yet, Refresh is rejected from Sublimation and Evoker's and Ballads are not.

You like pointing out Occram's Razor: The simplest explaination is often the best one.

Your # and my guess that its recognized by the system as Refresh are probably the best possible answers. Perhaps this is to cut back on Refresh + Balladx2 + Evoker's Roll in PTs, simply dropping one Refresh from the picture when someone uses /SCH. Fact remains, /SCH doesn't have to use it when RDM is there, which solves that problem.

At any rate, RDM needed a subjob roadblock at some point, but I see it as more of a trade-off.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Honestly I still think Sublimation will work fine as RDM/SCH, if nothing else, I can't be the only person that has come to a point in a big fight where I hit 38 MP, Refresh wears off, and I still have 1-2 minutes on Convert.

I'd pop a Hi-Ether instead. (Did that last night in Limbus, actually.)

TBH you'd get your mp back a lot quicker just by eating a cookie and /heal, RDM/SCH is useless. From the time it takes to actually cast SS for a RDM wouldnt it be quicker to sit and /heal for that time and get up and toss a cure IV if you need to instad of wasting that extra mp you have on SS?

Sublimation is not too useful for RDM as is, but the combination of RDM/SCH is hardly useless.

Duo'ing with BLM on puddings with barely any resist on nukes. Using Drain as an offensive weapon and seeing Aspir working like, well, magic. It may be difficult to use /SCH on RDM, but the Dark Arts' power is undeniable.

Light Arts' bonus is pretty nifty, too; even with the extra macro presses, it was helpful to get the buffs out of the way faster, while using a little less MP, to boot.

Celerity + Raise was also... Um... Good. But, let's not get into that too much.

[MrMageo]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I think Callisto has a very nice example of how it can work to a RDM/SCH's favor. Even if it is only for a breif amount of time to pop refresh again or a SS.

As for the uselessness of RDM/SCH i disagree.

With an elemental/dark tourqe i can pop the cap of those spells to 263 which is pretty good to me borderline A- skill yes please. Drain and Aspir acctually doing something for once possibly consistently. Teir 3 nukes that may hit a consistent 600-650. For the nuking style mage it is a goldmine of possibility. For the healing Side its nearly as good. Regen 2 10% cost on all cures, 50% cast time and cost to raise. As well as an additional convertlike ability for those tough times. (as well as na's cant forget them.)

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

The status icon argument again. I know what Sublimation does.

If Sublimation has its own and Refresh has its own icon, why don't they stack? Either SE doesn't want them to or Sublimation is a retroactive Refresh/Convert ability at the expense of your HP.

The fact that they have different looking icons (and in-game text for the icons) means at least some of the code treat them differently.

The fact that it does not refresh immediately means it's charging a different counter variable, and not MP, making it different from Refresh, Ballad, and Evoker's Roll, all of which do charge to MP instead of a hidden counter. Sublimation acts differently.

If you're still arguing Sublimation is Refresh, you are making a logical connection where there is none. While Sublimation does interact with Refresh (by banishing/preventing it), but by all available evidence point to that it is not Refresh.

The distinction clearly exists.

If it was a bug, it likely would have been at the top of the list of what got fixed today. Its not there at all. Which leaves you with your #2 theory and my theory that is actually counted as Refresh. #2 is more likely, but yet, Refresh is rejected from Sublimation and Evoker's and Ballads are not.

You like pointing out Occram's Razor: The simplest explaination is often the best one.

Not getting a "fix" today on Sublimation is one indirect evidence that Sublimation is working as intended, but keep in mind "top of the list" to fix is always crash bugs and system problem which prevent large number of people from enjoying a substantial portion of the game. (*cough* Crash in CS. *cough* Campaign. *cough*)

Sublimation, as is, wouldn't be an urgent issue, even if S-E considered it bugged.

Good designs tend to be symmetrical and have the property of orthogonality. Sublimation seems to go against that, and Occum's Razor works equally well for both "bug" and "as designed" for now, until further evidence presents itself.

Your # and my guess that its recognized by the system as Refresh are probably the best possible answers. Perhaps this is to cut back on Refresh + Balladx2 + Evoker's Roll in PTs, simply dropping one Refresh from the picture when someone uses /SCH.

Your guess that Sublimation is Refresh isn't reasonable, much less logical. We already have another way to get Refresh--Juice. Same icon, same in-game text. If it's implemented as Refresh, it should looks like and act like refresh.

Envoke Occum's Razor here if you like: If it looks different, it's probably different.

That said, it is possible S-E somehow finds Refresh + Sublimation to be too much for RDM/SCH. Why extend that to SCH main, though, I wouldn't know; Elemental Siphon is stronger than Sublimation, and S-E apparently has no problem with it used with Refresh.

[MrMageo]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

To the Head of FFXI Dev team:

We the undersigned are curious to know the reasoning behind the incompatible relation between refresh and Sublimation. We have been picking out brains for logical explanation and have beaten each other aroun the bush over it. Is this designed to work as it does, or is this just a systematic flaw in the creation of the new ability.

Thanks for your time,
Sincerley
FFXI Online Communtity

[Zempten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Finally got home today.

75 SCH
Magic Skill: 256

+ AF Body / Legs
Magic Skill: 271

+ 8 Merits:
Magic Skill: 287

75BLM
Elemental Magic Skill: 272

+8 Merits:
Elemental Magic Skill: 288

So basically SCH has 1 elemental magic skill less then BLM. Wow . . . . .I can't wait to try some helix on some kings or gods.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

If you're still arguing Sublimation is Refresh, you are making a logical connection where there is none. While Sublimation does interact with Refresh (by banishing/preventing it), but by all available evidence point to that it is not Refresh.

Go see my original statement

I said the system MAY consider Sublimation Refresh (this suggests a bug). I NEVER said Sublimation is Refresh. You really have a bad habit of putting words in people's mouths lately.

Good designs tend to be symmetrical and have the property of orthogonality. Sublimation seems to go against that, and Occum's Razor works equally well for both "bug" and "as designed" for now, until further evidence presents itself.

I'd agree with you if:

• Blue, White and Black Magic enfeebles stacked with Ninjutsu enfeebles
• If Quick Draws affected Blue Magic enfeebles, along with White, Black and Ninjutsu Enfeebles.
• Quick Draws strengthened Ninjutsu elemental debuffs instead of weakening them

If good design is symmetrical, then what about these things we know not to be true?

No blue, white or black magic enfeeble stacks with Ninjutsu, but Elegy stacks with Hojo..
Quick Draws don't affect Blue Magic.
Quick Draws do weaken Ninjutsu elemental debuffs instead of enhancing them.

Some things in this game are meant to oppose each other, even if only by theme.

[Vyuru]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

To the Head of FFXI Dev team:

We the undersigned are curious to know the reasoning behind the incompatible relation between refresh and Sublimation. We have been picking out brains for logical explanation and have beaten each other aroun the bush over it. Is this designed to work as it does, or is this just a systematic flaw in the creation of the new ability.

Thanks for your time,
Sincerley
FFXI Online Communtity

Don't even THINK you speak for us.

[Icemage]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Actually, Sublimation is fairly useful for RDM - perhaps more so than any other mage other than a SCH main.

Consider:

You're getting low on MP, Convert timer is coming up.
- Wait for Refresh to fade
- Activate Sublimation to accumulate stored MP
- Cast Regen on yourself after a few ticks to counteract the HP slip damage

Let's say you accumulate 100 MP this way (50 ticks, so one full Refresh cycle).

Spend down to low MP, swap in Convert gears, activate Convert, drop a Cure IV on yourself right away to burn off some excess MP from gear that needs to get swapped back out. Spend a bit more MP (remember, no Refresh running, so should be relatively easy to get down 100+MP below normal max), and now you pop Sublimation off, get the MP bonus, and use 40 of it to cast Refresh on yourself again.

Sublimation, while active, returns 2MP per tick, net (minus a small amount for the one cast of Regen or so that you'll need to counteract the total slip damage).

Refresh, for a RDM, costs 40 MP and returns 150, so it nets 110 MP over 50 ticks. Sublimation returns 100MP over those same 50 ticks. Not a huge difference, and it's more than made up for with the MP savings of Arts alone, let aside what you get from Regen II, status cures, and Penury/Parsimony.


Icemage

[Karinya]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Finally got home today.

75 SCH
Magic Skill: 256

+ AF Body / Legs
Magic Skill: 271

+ 8 Merits:
Magic Skill: 287

75BLM
Elemental Magic Skill: 272

+8 Merits:
Elemental Magic Skill: 288

So basically SCH has 1 elemental magic skill less then BLM. Wow . . . . .I can't wait to try some helix on some kings or gods.

Gee, if only BLM had no elemental skill af or relic, that statement would be true. (Well, not really, because you're also 4 points off on the BLM's base skill. A+ caps at 276.)

You've compared a scholar with +15 skill gear (they can actually get more with torques and MC bracelets, if they don't have anything better to wear in those slots; and considering their low skill, z-mitts and ugg pendant might actually not be better) to a BLM with no skill gear (they have access to +30 from af and relic alone, and *then* add torques and MC bracelets if you want them; and also disregarding macc gear, which BLM has more access to if they choose). That doesn't really work.

Equip your BLM gear and try that again...

Naked SCH has 20 points less skill than naked BLM. BLM has more skill gear available to them than SCH does.

On the other hand, SCH has -ga IVs now... has anyone tested them? Sure, they'd have the (base) casting cost and time of AM2s, but they might still be useful for *something*...

[Vyuru]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Cure IV on yourself right away to burn off some excess MP from gear that needs to get swapped back out.

Question:

How does Cure IV compare to say a Regen II/Drain combo?

Also, don't most of the mobs that we merit on these days have MP? The mamool ja have it, I think the colibri have it, although they would reflect Aspir so that's no good. Still, I'm thinking that /Sch gives a pretty good Aspir from what I hear, so could you take that into account for part of your mp recovery?