3/10 patch changes to scholar

[MrMageo]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

You'd rather have Haste and Minuet than Ballad from BRDs as a RDM.
Then updates on SMN are SCH aren't for the self-sufficency of those jobs, but to look for reasons for you to melee.
By extention, you probably think this was DNC's intent too, not to free up melees and help them be more independant, but so RDMs could melee.
The intent is self-sufficency and to pry other players off thier dependancy toward RDM, BRD and COR from where I'm standing. This way, when one of those jobs isn't seeking, a PT can still survive and succeed without them.

You will find anyway to turn a answer I post into some form of my apparant melee happy side. Im pretty sure this is a SCH discussion not a Mr Mageo likes to melee in certain situations he has clearly defined as certain situations thread Im not going to partake in the derailment of this thread with you.

The Question Asked:

Why is it only refresh that dosent stack with Sublimation?

The answer i gave:

Possibly because it was SE's intention to free RDM up to do other things
Enfeeble, Buff, Debuff, Back up Heal, MB, and ,melee.

If by what you say SCH sublimation is to make them self sufficent with out a RDM/BRD/COR why oh why is it only Refresh that dosent stack? If it was SE's intent why does ballad not get cancelled, or evokers roll. Can you answer that or only speculate like me.

Perhaps it was SE's intent, perhaps it wasn't , but to me it seems like alot of extra coding to over write 1 spell and a drink (which is already over written by said spell) to just be a mistake.

The only way to find out is to wait and see, but based on SE's own words my answer seems to be the most logical one right now.

[Zempten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Think SE said specifically that they were "Considering magic to allow RDM to move up to front lines." and not JA. However, this does make a good starting point to move RDMs up to the frontlines to add meele into their set of duties and take out Refresh from it. This doesn't make RDM meele "acceptable" though atm to a vast majority of the community. You'll still hear people go "RDM's meele is a waste", "RDM meele feeds TP", . . .. etc. I think this is where the RDM's update for meele VIA spells comes in. Spells that would enhance a certain meele aspect or something like that. That's my theory at least.

[Truece]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Is there any precedent in the game where a player must decide if they want to use a job ability or gain the effect of a spell? My experience is mage-oriented, so I'm not sure if such situations arise on other jobs.

For WHM, /SCH is the best subjob (imho) hands-down. As it is, I seldom needed refresh as long as there were mobs with MP pools. The 10% savings from arts, B+ dark skill for aspir, and strategems are just that good. When I saw that SE added the ability to store MP for later use and that it was subbable, I was ecstatic! Then, before I even had a chance to really test out the new ability, I hear that I now have to choose: use a job ability to be more self-sufficient, or allow the RDM to cast refresh on me. I can't even use sublimation as a safety net, since I won't have the opportunity to store any MP if a situation were to go sour (assuming that a RDM is refreshing me).

From a RDM standpoint, I really don't care. I will still be responsible for casting Refresh on any SCH or /SCH in my parties (unless someone specifically requests otherwise). I have tried /SCH a couple of times but found it difficult to manage since I so frequently needed to switch between light and dark arts. Would sublimation have worked with refresh, then I would have made /SCH my subjob of choice (for obvious reasons) and just learned to deal with casting some spells under the wrong arts.

If a RDM and SCH or /SCH are in the same party, someone will find themselves unable to use all of his/her tools to enhance the party's performance. For some, it means that the RDM has an extra 40 MP to use elsewhere. For others, that means deciding to use a job ability to try to be self-sufficient or rely on the RDM for refresh.

[MrMageo]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Considering Magic and Adding magic a to far different terms when it comes to MMO.

SE dosent state They were considering adding, taking away, moving, or tweaking magic directley pertaining to RDM. Cutting down use of those spells seems like a consideration to change to me.

[Truece]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I don't see the changes as a way to lessen the burden on RDMs as much as it lessens the burden on PTs to have a refresher of any kind in their party. If this was their intent, SE didn't do RDM/BRD/COR any favors, but did help everyone who sat in a PT at 5/6 waiting for a refresher to pop.

[Celeal]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Is there any precedent in the game where a player must decide if they want to use a job ability or gain the effect of a spell? My experience is mage-oriented, so I'm not sure if such situations arise on other jobs.

For WHM, /SCH is the best subjob (imho) hands-down. As it is, I seldom needed refresh as long as there were mobs with MP pools. The 10% savings from arts, B+ dark skill for aspir, and strategems are just that good. When I saw that SE added the ability to store MP for later use and that it was subbable, I was ecstatic! Then, before I even had a chance to really test out the new ability, I hear that I now have to choose: use a job ability to be more self-sufficient, or allow the RDM to cast refresh on me. I can't even use sublimation as a safety net, since I won't have the opportunity to store any MP if a situation were to go sour (assuming that a RDM is refreshing me).

From a RDM standpoint, I really don't care. I will still be responsible for casting Refresh on any SCH or /SCH in my parties (unless someone specifically requests otherwise). I have tried /SCH a couple of times but found it difficult to manage since I so frequently needed to switch between light and dark arts. Would sublimation have worked with refresh, then I would have made /SCH my subjob of choice (for obvious reasons) and just learned to deal with casting some spells under the wrong arts.

If a RDM and SCH or /SCH are in the same party, someone will find themselves unable to use all of his/her tools to enhance the party's performance. For some, it means that the RDM has an extra 40 MP to use elsewhere. For others, that means deciding to use a job ability to try to be self-sufficient or rely on the RDM for refresh.

IMHO, the party dynamic/setup should change after this update. That assume the mage has /SCH, or is going to sub SCH, or SCH becomes the *standard subjub* of mage, etc.

[Sabaron]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Mr. Mageo. Stop making it about you. This thread is about SCH. Sublimation is not RDM's tool. It is an alternative to RDM (e.g. something that mages can have when they don't have RDM). If you're in a PT and you don't Refresh someone because they have Sublimation, you're not doing your job. Sublimation is significantly less efficient than Refresh.

[Icemage]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Is there any precedent in the game where a player must decide if they want to use a job ability or gain the effect of a spell? My experience is mage-oriented, so I'm not sure if such situations arise on other jobs.

There is.

Third Eye vs. Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni vs. Blink/Aerial Armor/Zephyr Mantle

For WHM, /SCH is the best subjob (imho) hands-down. As it is, I seldom needed refresh as long as there were mobs with MP pools. The 10% savings from arts, B+ dark skill for aspir, and strategems are just that good. When I saw that SE added the ability to store MP for later use and that it was subbable, I was ecstatic! Then, before I even had a chance to really test out the new ability, I hear that I now have to choose: use a job ability to be more self-sufficient, or allow the RDM to cast refresh on me. I can't even use sublimation as a safety net, since I won't have the opportunity to store any MP if a situation were to go sour (assuming that a RDM is refreshing me).

WHM/SCH is amazing for Light Arts, even if it were the only thing you got from the subjob. Penury, Dark Arts, Aspir, Drain, both Addenda, and Sublimation are just gravy.

From a RDM standpoint, I really don't care. I will still be responsible for casting Refresh on any SCH or /SCH in my parties (unless someone specifically requests otherwise). I have tried /SCH a couple of times but found it difficult to manage since I so frequently needed to switch between light and dark arts. Would sublimation have worked with refresh, then I would have made /SCH my subjob of choice (for obvious reasons) and just learned to deal with casting some spells under the wrong arts.

If a RDM and SCH or /SCH are in the same party, someone will find themselves unable to use all of his/her tools to enhance the party's performance. For some, it means that the RDM has an extra 40 MP to use elsewhere. For others, that means deciding to use a job ability to try to be self-sufficient or rely on the RDM for refresh.

Sublimation is amazing, but it's still inferior to Refresh for everyone except a Scholar main or a RDM himself (since you can store MP prior to Convert this way). It's a great option to have, and makes /SCH competitive with /WHM as the default subjob of choice for many mages.


Icemage

[Truece]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

There is.

Third Eye vs. Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni vs. Blink/Aerial Armor/Zephyr Mantle

Thank you! I couldn't think of another example where you had to choose between using a job ability or gaining the effect of a spell, but you've clearly identified that such cases already exist in the game.

Sublimation is amazing, but it's still inferior to Refresh for everyone except a Scholar main or a RDM himself (since you can store MP prior to Convert this way). It's a great option to have, and makes /SCH competitive with /WHM as the default subjob of choice for many mages.

I am going to have to give RDM/SCH another chance, I guess. Can it be just as (if not more) effective as /WHM? I'm sure it can. Will it be as easy to master the nuances of the subjob? Not really. I can see that I'm going to have a lot to learn to fully utilize the spells and abilities of /SCH!

[Ziero]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Considering Magic and Adding magic a to far different terms when it comes to MMO.

SE dosent state They were considering adding, taking away, moving, or tweaking magic directley pertaining to RDM. Cutting down use of those spells seems like a consideration to change to me.

But Haste and Refresh will still be just as needed in PTs because the Haste cap affects so few and Refresh is *vastly superior* to Sublimation.

These changes were to make so PTs could work without a Rdm, not to make it so a Rdm can shirk two of their biggest responsibilities.

[Callisto]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I am a little iffy about an HQ SCH possibly being able to outdamage a NQ BLM on T4's now, not to mention that SCH not getting SS/Blink in 37- Addenda was already a kick in the jewels for BLM...

That said, I already liked the idea of SCH, and I already pretty much have full endgame gear for it, gogo 75 SCH!

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I am a little iffy about an HQ SCH possibly being able to outdamage a NQ BLM on T4's now, not to mention that SCH not getting SS/Blink in 37- Addenda was already a kick in the jewels for BLM...

Well, way I see it is /RDM has been rather good to BLM and at the end of the day, BLM still has access to /SCH for endgame purposes, and there the use for /SCH is pretty solid. Its just soloing as BLM with /SCH remains impractical. As for Blink/SS at endgame, you could look to SCH or SMN for a fix.

[Olorin401]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

I am a little iffy about an HQ SCH possibly being able to outdamage a NQ BLM on T4's now, not to mention that SCH not getting SS/Blink in 37- Addenda was already a kick in the jewels for BLM...

That said, I already liked the idea of SCH, and I already pretty much have full endgame gear for it, gogo 75 SCH!

I think I might go to 75 with it too.. I've got all sorts of goodies that I can use when I get to high levels now.

Man, I shoulda bid all-out on that Seveneyes that dropped the other day.. SIGH!

[Zempten]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Seveneyes? I still think HQ staves is the way to go considering SCH is so heavily elemental based.

I am a little iffy about an HQ SCH possibly being able to outdamage a NQ BLM on T4's now, not to mention that SCH not getting SS/Blink in 37- Addenda was already a kick in the jewels for BLM...

Why is this comparison sorta biased(sp?)? HQ vs NQ? Why not HQ SCH vs HQ BLM? or NQ SCH vs NQ BLM?

[Callisto]

Re: 3/10 patch changes to scholar

Seveneyes? I still think HQ staves is the way to go considering SCH is so heavily elemental based.



Why is this comparison sorta biased(sp?)? HQ vs NQ? Why not HQ SCH vs HQ BLM? or NQ SCH vs NQ BLM?

Because BLM's Potency merits are what set it apart from other nukers for the most part, aside from Sorcerer's Ring most other mages can wear the same MAB gear. I'm not sure if it's right that even a well geared SCH(HQ Staves, Goli Cuffs/V.Mufflers, Novia) can outnuke an unmerited BLM, kinda gives even less incentive for anyone to level BLM or use it at endgame unless they're already pimped out. Not that I care, but it kind of sucks for BLMs who are already having a tough time finding their places to get XP/merits, now they might even need to compete with SCHs for spots in a manaburn party.