Curebot

[Ziero]

Re: Curebot

Please, let's not kid ourselves, you've been arguing about the "overpowering" effects of melee buffs and Sanction for as long as I can remember, I'm not buying this hair-splitting for a second. "Melee friendliness" and "more effective" EXP have same exact reasons behind them:
- Low HP/VIT/Evasion mobs
- High Respawn
- For ToA: Sanction.
We can't get rid of Sanction, they've already expanded and hybridized that buff with Signet into Sigil, the cat is out of the bag.
RoZ retain thier slow respawn rates, CoP's generally follow a six minute respawn but with mobs just as difficult as RoZ zones for the most part, or even meaner ones. CoP mobs - the popular targets - are all weak mobs with high respawn, all conviently located within the reach of Staging points.
And there is a very good reason to kill TP Burn (1) To force melees and mages alike to play at the top of thier game again, ToA weakened strategy and teamwork. Niether the lolWARs or their lolBRDs gear thier jobs with any shred of respect for the job, its just a charade (2) We need actual teamwork back in the picture, we need mages back in PTs.

Actually, the only thing that makes ToAU mobs so much better to exp on is the Exp bonus from Sanction. Otherwise those choice mobs would NOT be worth the effort as the best ones to Exp on have *annoying as hell* specials. And the reason why the SC/MB died is because these choice mobs killed it with their *abilities*. I've actually had a Pt where we were SCing on imps, but it could only be done real early in the fight because if it wasn't there would be no more WS. Colibri mimic magic cast, so bursting on them is bad and Puks have that wonderful AoE Flash, that absurd AoE knockback and blink, which I've seen screw up many a WS.

If you leave the easiest option open to FFXI players, the easiest option is the only option FFXI players will ever take. The people out there EXPing and exploring the WotG zones right now are the exception to the rule, they'll draw benefit from making smaller groups and getting EXP in the ways these zones offers. Most players are lazy, incompetent and spoiled and will never leave the ToA Zones.
I don't want to derail this topic further - well, maybe I do, it was little more than an inane complaint topic to start with, SCH can solo - but we have the following ways to EXP right now:
- The 1-54 FFXI/RoZ Grind
- The 55-75 ToA Grind
The 55-75 RoZ/CoP grind no longer exists, no one will do it because why? Because ToA zones are easier to make melee PTs for; Or as you would say "more effective." I remember the PTs we were making in RoZ/CoP, they usually had BLMs and WHMs in them. They usually had PLDs in them, too. There wasn't a goober BRD gimped to the gils pulling, we had THF or RNGs doing it. BRD pulling did exist then, mind you, but not in the mainstream way it is now.

Exping is one of the most annoying parts of this game and is generally disliked by the populace. It's not a sign of comitment, skill, apptitude or anything, it's just time spent. So I think that ruining the 'easiest' way to exp for 80% of the jobs in game would be kinda counter productive. People complain about how ToAU TP burns 'exclude' certain jobs from lvling, but back in the RoZ/CoP stuff, a lot more jobs were excluded.

The Signet update last summer converted the FFXI/RoZ/CoP zones into a more solo-friendly experience for smaller groups from 1-75, but getting people to go out to any of them in a full group at 55+ is like pulling teeth. Now we have Sigil and the WotG Zones, adding all kinds of new small group options and standard group options as well. As far as meleeburn PTs go, you'll never get the ToA sloths out here. They'll' complain about the walking (transport is almost as braindead as ToA once you do the legwork, too), they'll complain there's not as many meleeburn camps. They'll basically find any excuse to stay out in Whitegate seeking and moan abou thier invite rate.

I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to complain about walking in WotG as it provides *the* fastest modes of transportation to *all* the past zones. And from what I've seen, Campaign is PACKED with people at 75 in endgame gear because it earns them decent EXP in a fun way. You don't even *need* to make PTs anymore, you just show up and fight. So if you run into any of these people, you should just blist em now because they're not that bright.

You can't have SC/MB come back into the picture and hope it to mean anything anywhere but endgame if we leave ToA camps as they are. Nothing will change with the situation BLM, SMN, WHM and RDM are in, as well as the one SCH faces if SE does not address and properly nerf TP burn.

If the SC/MB exp per hour can rival TP burns, I'm sure there would be plenty of people making those pts. Not everyone is as adversed to SC/MB as people seem to believe. And imo the only jobs that really suffer from TP burns are Blm, who can solo 10k an hour anyway, and Smn, who was *always* a low invite job, even back before ToAU.

It would be a damn shame for WotG to be another CoP where the zones are just a backdrop for missions. The potential is just too good to waste and players need to be given a little push into exploring new options. Buffing ToA mobs to be stronger is not nerfing any job, just reducing thier impact and bringing mages back into the picture in thier proper party roles.

There are only three missions available, yet the past is FULL of people. And it's not because it's new, it's because it provides a fun challenge and decent rewards with very little commitment. With CoP they were a pain to travel to, and required a specific reason to go there. With WotG I can log on, check the campaign map, then hop into that fight in a matter of minutes. Hell I got about 2-3k exp last night just beating on a WALL. Absolutely 0 risk involved and had a blast doing it.

And Sch will be a great main healer because of one simple thing. It can cast Cure. Yes it can nuke effectively, but there are plenty of other DDs in this game that will be competeing against it, so I definately see a lion share of this job's duties falling under healing and support functions. But really, is that such a bad thing?

[DakAttack]

Re: Curebot

There are only three missions available, yet the past is FULL of people. And it's not because it's new, it's because it provides a fun challenge and decent rewards with very little commitment. With CoP they were a pain to travel to, and required a specific reason to go there. With WotG I can log on, check the campaign map, then hop into that fight in a matter of minutes. Hell I got about 2-3k exp last night just beating on a WALL. Absolutely 0 risk involved and had a blast doing it.

You had fun beating on a wall? Beyond the obvious innuendo that I may or may not have implied, it seems like you might need to raise your standards just a little bit. I really wish they would give the enemy and allied generals a bit more character. I've seen Leonoyne speak in battle once, and that's it. I'd like to see the Orcs talk a bit more even if it's in broken English.

[Ziero]

Re: Curebot

You had fun beating on a wall? Beyond the obvious innuendo that I may or may not have implied, it seems like you might need to raise your standards just a little bit. I really wish they would give the enemy and allied generals a bit more character. I've seen Leonoyne speak in battle once, and that's it. I'd like to see the Orcs talk a bit more even if it's in broken English.

It was a revenge thing. Many of times I would zone into a Gustaberg battle to see an army of turtles with no one around to stop them from happily plucking away at the tower. Doing what I could with what I had, I'd end up spending most of the Campaign kiting these bastards long enough for other people to start popping...sort of like a REALLY messed up Garrison. So finally gaining the chance to turn the tables and start ripping at THEIR walls while they're not around? Oh yea, that's fun. Revenge is a dish best served with a GIANT FREAKING AXE! >=O

Also, it's a great way to build tp on a lower lvl job and TA+WS any mobs that do show. (note, I ignored SA because them damn turtles have their ass-shields up 90% of the time)

[Omniblast]

Re: Curebot

Oh I saw a bunch of Yaguado beat on the tower once...
I went up, Astral Flow, Aerial Blast...

Needless to say, hit them all for quite a bit of damage. Then I ran my ass to the nearest Pixie I could find. :p

[Patchinko]

Re: Curebot

I saw a bad man kill a pixie.

[Feba]

Re: Curebot

Oh yea, that's fun. Revenge is a dish best served with a GIANT FREAKING AXE!

I would've thanked you and stuck this in my sig, were it not for that little smiley you put behind it. That looks like shit.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Curebot

At 24 SCH now and I've been both healer and nuker equally. I have no merits at all but my nukes have worked well anyways. The zillion DNC out there provide enough healing so I really haven't done that much ever since I got MAB.

[Karinya]

Re: Curebot

Please, let's not kid ourselves, you've been arguing about the "overpowering" effects of melee buffs and Sanction for as long as I can remember, I'm not buying this hair-splitting for a second.

Not exactly. Melee parties are indeed overpowered, but it has little to do with "melee buffs" and not even that much to do with sanction. It's primarily about level: hunting low level mobs is too rewarding. BLMs' damage doesn't suffer as much against very high level enemies (HNM); but it also doesn't benefit as much against very low level enemies, so they're undesirable against those enemies (even leaving out the effect of the specific mob families).

Melees' damage is relatively strongly affected by enemy level, so their damage goes way up against low level enemies. If those enemies, in spite of their low level and general wimpiness, are still worth decent exp, then ridiculous exp/hr rates result - unless there aren't enough mobs to sustain them.

"Melee friendliness" and "more effective" EXP have same exact reasons behind them:
- Low HP/VIT/Evasion mobs
- High Respawn
- For ToA: Sanction.

You're leaving out the most important factor: Despite the pathetic weakness of those mobs, they are still worth quite decent EXP.

There have been weak mobs around for a long time and still are: they're called "Decent Challenge" and "Even Match". Nobody exps on them (in a full party) because they're worth such pathetically tiny amounts that even chain #999 can't help you. It's only ToAU that brought you mobs that fight like an EM, and give you exp like a VT - and they pop in such huge quantities that you really can chain them forever.

When players can solo "VT" mobs, you know the level system is breaking down. Partly this is the mob families, but *no* mob family keeps up with the growth in player power after 65. High-level mob stats need serious adjustment, and mob exp values to high-level players need even more adjustment.

We can't get rid of Sanction, they've already expanded and hybridized that buff with Signet into Sigil, the cat is out of the bag.

Irrelevant. Sigil can only be used in WotG areas, while Sanction can only be used in the Empire, so they apply to completely different camps. Anyone who's taking advantage of Sigil in any way isn't abusing ToAU's easy, abundant, fast-respawning mobs - unless SE repeated those mistakes in designing WotG areas, which I don't have enough experience in WotG to say yet.

Furthermore, SE most certainly can reduce the importance of Sanction, without even nerfing it directly, by making Besieged not such a damn joke. Fewer and fewer people show up and the Empire still wins every time. There's hardly even a couple attacks a week because merit parties are too effective at stopping the beastmen from getting enough forces to prepare in the first place.

No AC in the empire = no exp bonuses, no purchaseable bonuses, IIRC no warping to staging points other than for Assault. It's a huge impact - for the three or four hours per month that it actually happens. If Besieged were given real teeth that put the AC in beastman hands for a third to half the time - you bet your ass people would find some new (or old) camps. Even if they went back as soon as the AC did, it would be an improvement IMO.

RoZ retain thier slow respawn rates, CoP's generally follow a six minute respawn but with mobs just as difficult as RoZ zones for the most part, or even meaner ones. CoP mobs - the popular targets - are all weak mobs with high respawn, all conviently located within the reach of Staging points.

Assuming you mean ToAU mobs: yeah, pretty much. With SE's intense reluctance to change old content no matter how broken, I doubt we'll see much revitalization of the old camps, unless the monsters that are already there become worth more exp (either absolutely, or in comparison to the alternatives). But several WotG zones have yet to be released. If ITs in Oztroja_S are *really* worth fighting, and also really demand a party that brings its A game (including a tank and hate control), then TP burns won't be simultaneously the easiest way to party *and* the best exp/hr way to party. I think in that situation their frequency will drop. You might not; but I bet we'd both love to see it put to the test (if only so that the players who *can* do something other than tp-burn can at least make better exp than the Rampage-spamming hordes).

And there is a very good reason to kill TP Burn (1) To force melees and mages alike to play at the top of thier game again, ToA weakened strategy and teamwork. Niether the lolWARs or their lolBRDs gear thier jobs with any shred of respect for the job, its just a charade (2) We need actual teamwork back in the picture, we need mages back in PTs.
If you leave the easiest option open to FFXI players, the easiest option is the only option FFXI players will ever take. The people out there EXPing and exploring the WotG zones right now are the exception to the rule, they'll draw benefit from making smaller groups and getting EXP in the ways these zones offers. Most players are lazy, incompetent and spoiled and will never leave the ToA Zones.

I agree with the first part, but I'm not as quick to jump to the conclusion that players are being stupid (or even lazy). To the contrary, they're very effectively finding the best exp/hr possible under the current rules - it just so happens to be a relatively mindless party style in camps (effectively) very close to town. But it works better, until SE makes something else work better. When it doesn't work better anymore, some players will turn away from it; maybe not all, but some. I bet a lot.

In short: It may not be necessary to *kill* TP burn, only to create an equally rewarding or slightly better alternative to lure some players away.

It would be a damn shame for WotG to be another CoP where the zones are just a backdrop for missions. The potential is just too good to waste and players need to be given a little push into exploring new options.

Well, *that* I agree with 100%. But I'm not as convinced as you seem to be that the playerbase will fail to take advantage of new opportunities, *if* they are really better than staying in the ToAU rut.

But unless SE modifies some old content or globally changes game mechanics (like the exp system for high level characters), I don't think ToAU will become any less effective than it is right now, which is a high hill for WotG to overcome.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Curebot

What Campaign is doing right now is taking a lot of players with lots of idle time or waiting for invites and moving them elsewhere. In a way thats good enough for some jobs, I can roam as BST then when Campaign hits, report in to an NPC and get started wailing on some beastmen for some extra EXP.

Whatever difficulties we may see for Scholar presented by current trends, we also must accept that ToA camps could be incredibly difficult for DNC if its not fighting Mamools or Trolls. Imps spam Amnesia - pretty much destroying DNC's main heal ability (fair enough, considering COR is the same and seeing as WHM and BRD could be silenced) and then there's the colibri's TP wipe moves.

SCH could just go join a manaburn if it was so unloved, though I doubt it will be.

The community will have to find a way to incorportate these new jobs, particularly due to DNC's overwhelming reception. SCH can play WHM, BLM, RDM or SMN to varying levels, which is a lot of ground to cover and could actually help those other jobs since they can adapt thier percieved roles.

At any rate, I see a lot of subtle fixes to older content and issues within WotG. Easy access to Roc camp and Garalige Citadel coffers was just the tip of the iceberg. DNC's and SCH's existance could very well address many of the issues presently had with other jobs by assimilating some of thier duties to free them up to thier truer roles. Don't have OPs to rival nation zones? Time travel, you can OP anywhere back during the war. Hate the dunes? New places to solo past them. Hate Crawler's Nest and Garalige in present day? Got new camps to cover those too.