Curebot

[Susurrus]

Has SCH been shoved into the Curebot role already? Just wondering. My SCH is 12 and I haven't partied yet (no invites, so been soloing). I just want to know what SCH holds for me as I get higher.

[Sabaron]

Re: Curebot

The word isn't "shoved". It will be, predictably, the nature of the beast. Think about it--as a magic DD, you are not competing for a support/heal party slot, you are competing for a DD slot. 90% of the server is also levelling DD jobs while everyone hates main heal and tank. So, the only person who can main heal for your level range is.... you. {Congratulations!} You get to main heal. It's really as simple as that. If you refuse to main heal, well, not only are you not getting XP, you are also preventing the 5 people who are asking you to main heal their pt from getting XP as well.

[Tsrwedge]

Re: Curebot

Au contraire! At least in my experience so far (through 25), I haven't been asked to main heal once. Perhaps I've been lucky (or seeking on SCH/BLM works wonders *shrug*), but in every party I've been in my primary role has been DD. Sure, it's been understood that I'm backup heal, but I've not yet had to act as the primary healer. Part of that may be SCH's late pickup of curing spells, and perhaps part of the reason SCHs don't get cures till when they do is SE didn't want to see SCH become just another healer.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Curebot

If you don't want to cure people, don't pick a job that has cures. Or a job that has curing potential, like SMN.

Its as damn simple as that.

This is really just whining for the sake of whining. I see no realy purpose to the topic. Curing will be every bits as much of part of SCH as it was for RDM. Don't like it? Don't level it.

And just because people invited you /BLM doesn't mean its the end-all/be-all subjob and you'll always get to nuke to your hearts content. Here's a hint, people will invite a RDM/WAR not because its /WAR, but because its RDM. I'd say "Red Moron" at that point, but when there's no other options seeking that level, you're taking Red Moron or you're not getting EXP.

[Telera]

Re: Curebot

I've never seen a scholar main heal. Every party my little taru whm has been in, the scholars have been filling a mainly early-rdm'esque role in debuff/DD with heals thrown in if things get out of hand.

Any job that has MP and can cure will probably get asked to do it in some capacity eventually. If only Summoner could cure efficiently with avatars I'd probably feel more like a summoner and not a jury-rigged whm, but there you have it. (I'd also be less optically bored with the task.) That's SE's problem not mine. I'll work with what I've got until then. Also not the point of this thread at all.. and I'd like it to NOT turn into another of those.

Scholar is flexible, though. Lower cost, faster cast if needed. If I wanted to DD mage, I'd probably go for straight BLM, to be honest. I may pick up scholar eventually, but until I take BLM past 18 on my taru, I'll be subbing WHM. And since said Taru is mainly set to be a BST, I may never actually do any of the above.

Will you get asked to main heal? Probably. But not if there's some poor RDM or SMN around they can harass first. I hate those random /tells when I'm not seeking asking me to party and I just *know* the reason they asked. Fun fun..

[Tsrwedge]

Re: Curebot

And just because people invited you /BLM doesn't mean its the end-all/be-all subjob and you'll always get to nuke to your hearts content. Here's a hint, people will invite a RDM/WAR not because its /WAR, but because its RDM. I'd say "Red Moron" at that point, but when there's no other options seeking that level, you're taking Red Moron or you're not getting EXP.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, cool down. I'm not saying /blm is the be-all end-all, nor do I think I'll be able to nuke to my hearts content forever and ever - in fact, I know I won't. Hell, when I was leveling BLM, I main healed in Qufim more often than not.

I failed to communicate in my previous post is I've asked every party what sub they wanted, and not one of them has indicated a preference for the subjob. Dancer has introduced a very interesting dimension to XP parties through Drain Samba and Curing Waltzes where a dedicated healer just isn't quite as necessary as before. Though some people are poo-pooing SCH, I think DNC and SCH actually complement each other fairly well in an XP party - especially one with a NIN tank, where the dances are able to do mose of the curing neccessary.

[Sabaron]

Re: Curebot

Let's take a look at what Scholar gets. We all know in terms of spells it's basically single target nukes, cures, basic protection and Drain/Aspir with Storms and Helixes at high levels.

At 10th level we earn our B-skill rating and we get abilities that allow us to be very efficient at whichever magic type we choose to temporarily specialize in--these are our only claim to fame until 25th, but I like these 50% cost abilities very much being a solid proponent of efficiency as I am. The only problem is that BLM get's Conserve MP and has a better skill rating, so they have less resists and still get discounts on mp. Is the efficiency provided by my 4 minute recast ability worth all of the stuff that BLM gets?

On the White mage side of 10-24, I'm not going to have resists, my MND will max my cures, and I use less MP than a WHM. I miss out on a few of the WHM abilities though being able to get them only off subjob and I don't get Divine Seal until 20th. Basically we're "even match" efficiency wise (though I like Divine Seal better than Penury) until 20th level when I get both--which makes me king. Of course, if WHM takes SCH sub they get both too...Hmm... So I run neck and neck with WHM on efficiency, but I lose out on the spells. Dang, I lost again.

So now I get 25 and what do I get now? Super Fast Cast, but at the expense of my efficiency boost and most of my spells don't really take that long to cast anyway. Hmmm. I don't think I'm going to be using that yet, so I still lose and my next ability is not until 40th level. I feel good about my sub job capacity, but I'm still not very cool.

At 40th I actually get to start doing cool stuff that no one else can do! I can now make almost anything Area of Effect. Now that I'm actually coming in to my own, let's see what I can do at 40th. Most notably, I see my recently acquired Regen II spell which no one other than WHM and I can cast, but I get to make it Regenga II every 4 minutes which vastly expands my efficiency as long as I can hit at least 4 targets (which is not hard). Also, I get Invisiga and Sneakga which could be quite satisfying on occasion (not confirmed). Look over there at RDM now though. What does he get? I see Enthunderga (at 10 damageish) for 150/240 seconds (62% coverage) which, to me, is my first eye-catching power since everything else thus far has been overshadowed by something someone else can do. I can now Enspell others and do so much better than a Summoner. If it turns out that I can't use Accession with Enspells well then... I can also cast (natively) Raisega or I can make a Cure into a Curaga without subbing WHM if necessary. Manifestation only works on black enfeebling magic which is not really that useful in XP with the exception of Sleepga which, of course, BLM already has. On WHM I now get the rough equivalent of Divine Veil which is very nifty on occasion, but not nearly as much fun as enchanting everyone's weapons and Blinkga which is so 25th level (Summoner).

At 55 I get Ebullience and Rapture which give me some definitive power especially since I can stack them with seals and make very powerful versions of my spells. Now I can start doing some better nuking damage, but I still don't have anything truly special on the black magic side. White Mage will give me Stoneskinga at 56 which, yes, Summoner got earlier, but mine's stronger than his. Nothing special comes from Red Mage this time. I'm also getting native Storms which helps boost my damage though my skill is still behind.

Now I'm 61st level and I start getting my helix. This is where I start to get something new in terms of nukes, but I don't know the specifics on helix, so I can't really make any comments except that they can't be "Manifested" which kinda sucks. At 66th level I get Reraisega from /WHM which is absolutely killer and Phalanxga from /RDM which is quite lovely especially if I have a tank who can't hold hate.

In summary:

1-9: Blue Mage is king of subs.
10-24: White Mage wins hands down. I'm a loser compared to WHM and BLM.
25-39: White Mage is still king. I'm a loser compared to WHM and BLM.
40-55: Red Mage gets into the mix with Enspellga. I'm unique and no longer a loser unless I select /BLM as sub.
56-60: Still RDM v. WHM, but Ebullience is going to validate my subbing of /BLM.
61-75: Now I can really start into the nuking side of my personality with helical death, but Reraisega and Phalanxga still hold WHM and RDM in popularity. Now helix set /BLM as an appropriate sub.

Also remember that I can Helix and cast single-target nukes without going /BLM, but I can't EleDoT or Warp.

I still love WHM and RDM as subs for SCH over BLM. Show me some "mad numbers" off a BLM sub and you'll convince me, but I don't think you're going to get out of being heal/support especially with the lovely reportoire of things you get out of /WHM and /RDM. I can, however, see SCH being a very good nuker on 2hr and for burst damage (with all three stratagems saved up) at high level, but that's not the sustained power that is needed in XP.

[Gobo]

Re: Curebot

Raise, Reraise don't work with Accession.

Enspells can

[Sabaron]

Re: Curebot

Raise, Reraise don't work with Accession.

Enspells can

Aw... yet another bug in my butter...

I don't know about you, but every time I dig a bit further, it looks like Scholar has been practically designed to sub RDM--all the time. SE keeps taking all the cool stuff away from BLM and WHM subs. No Raise/Reraise, No AoE EleDoTs or Helixes, no Spikesga, and I can't make my single target nukes AoE or even cast Warpga!

[Silent Howler]

Re: Curebot

Au contraire! At least in my experience so far (through 25), I haven't been asked to main heal once. Perhaps I've been lucky (or seeking on SCH/BLM works wonders *shrug*), but in every party I've been in my primary role has been DD. Sure, it's been understood that I'm backup heal, but I've not yet had to act as the primary healer. Part of that may be SCH's late pickup of curing spells, and perhaps part of the reason SCHs don't get cures till when they do is SE didn't want to see SCH become just another healer.

I think the reason for this also has to do with the other new healer.

[Icemage]

Re: Curebot

I think the reason for this also has to do with the other new healer.

Yep. Dancers are pretty good at keeping HPs up with Curing Waltz. As the Dancer and Scholar craze starts fading in the coming months, you'll see the typical lack of healers resurface - because most people really hate to heal, and I suspect that Scholar will get shoved into the curetanking role by a lot of players simply out of necessity.

It doesn't mean Scholar isn't a capable nuker, because it most certainly is. But just as a Red Mage can nuke capably at level 51+ with staves, no one ever invites them for that purpose because it's not going to be in much demand.

Now, if Square-Enix makes good on their promise to improve the power of skillchaining, then maybe we'll see more demand for nuking jobs, and this sad state of affairs will change.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Curebot

Now, if Square-Enix makes good on their promise to improve the power of skillchaining, then maybe we'll see more demand for nuking jobs, and this sad state of affairs will change.

I've been playing FFXI too long to believe that simply adjusting SC power would bring mages back in the picture. While the WotG are still new and possibly unexplored, ToA's lame hub design only facillatates laziness in players. A practical camp will be neglected if it isn't easy to get to with virtually no aggro.

SE has to do the hard thing, the thing that will make people upset.

They need to kill the melee-friendliness of ToA zones to bring BLM and WHM back into the picture, RDM back to its true PT role and make SCH what they envision it to be.

[Karinya]

Re: Curebot

They don't need to kill its melee-friendliness. They just need to kill its exp/hr superiority.

If some people want to lazily warp to mire to get 12k/hr with 5 dd/nins and a bard while others can make 15 with a balanced, SC+MB party in Oztroja_S or wherever... that's OK with me.

Players don't tpburn just because it's convenient and easy: they primarily do it because it's *more effective*. That's the part that would be pretty easy for SE to change, without necessarily even taking away the option of tpburning for players who can't fight the right jobs to do anything else.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Curebot

They don't need to kill its melee-friendliness. They just need to kill its exp/hr superiority.

If some people want to lazily warp to mire to get 12k/hr with 5 dd/nins and a bard while others can make 15 with a balanced, SC+MB party in Oztroja_S or wherever... that's OK with me.

Players don't tpburn just because it's convenient and easy: they primarily do it because it's *more effective*. That's the part that would be pretty easy for SE to change, without necessarily even taking away the option of tpburning for players who can't fight the right jobs to do anything else.

Please, let's not kid ourselves, you've been arguing about the "overpowering" effects of melee buffs and Sanction for as long as I can remember, I'm not buying this hair-splitting for a second. "Melee friendliness" and "more effective" EXP have same exact reasons behind them:

- Low HP/VIT/Evasion mobs
- High Respawn
- For ToA: Sanction.

We can't get rid of Sanction, they've already expanded and hybridized that buff with Signet into Sigil, the cat is out of the bag.

RoZ retain thier slow respawn rates, CoP's generally follow a six minute respawn but with mobs just as difficult as RoZ zones for the most part, or even meaner ones. CoP mobs - the popular targets - are all weak mobs with high respawn, all conviently located within the reach of Staging points.

And there is a very good reason to kill TP Burn (1) To force melees and mages alike to play at the top of thier game again, ToA weakened strategy and teamwork. Niether the lolWARs or their lolBRDs gear thier jobs with any shred of respect for the job, its just a charade (2) We need actual teamwork back in the picture, we need mages back in PTs.

If you leave the easiest option open to FFXI players, the easiest option is the only option FFXI players will ever take. The people out there EXPing and exploring the WotG zones right now are the exception to the rule, they'll draw benefit from making smaller groups and getting EXP in the ways these zones offers. Most players are lazy, incompetent and spoiled and will never leave the ToA Zones.

I don't want to derail this topic further - well, maybe I do, it was little more than an inane complaint topic to start with, SCH can solo - but we have the following ways to EXP right now:

- The 1-54 FFXI/RoZ Grind
- The 55-75 ToA Grind

The 55-75 RoZ/CoP grind no longer exists, no one will do it because why? Because ToA zones are easier to make melee PTs for; Or as you would say "more effective." I remember the PTs we were making in RoZ/CoP, they usually had BLMs and WHMs in them. They usually had PLDs in them, too. There wasn't a goober BRD gimped to the gils pulling, we had THF or RNGs doing it. BRD pulling did exist then, mind you, but not in the mainstream way it is now.

Moving on:

- Campain/Besiged
- Escort Quests, Campaign Ops, ENMs
- Solo
-Duo/Trio

The Signet update last summer converted the FFXI/RoZ/CoP zones into a more solo-friendly experience for smaller groups from 1-75, but getting people to go out to any of them in a full group at 55+ is like pulling teeth. Now we have Sigil and the WotG Zones, adding all kinds of new small group options and standard group options as well. As far as meleeburn PTs go, you'll never get the ToA sloths out here. They'll' complain about the walking (transport is almost as braindead as ToA once you do the legwork, too), they'll complain there's not as many meleeburn camps. They'll basically find any excuse to stay out in Whitegate seeking and moan abou thier invite rate.

You can't have SC/MB come back into the picture and hope it to mean anything anywhere but endgame if we leave ToA camps as they are. Nothing will change with the situation BLM, SMN, WHM and RDM are in, as well as the one SCH faces if SE does not address and properly nerf TP burn.

It would be a damn shame for WotG to be another CoP where the zones are just a backdrop for missions. The potential is just too good to waste and players need to be given a little push into exploring new options. Buffing ToA mobs to be stronger is not nerfing any job, just reducing thier impact and bringing mages back into the picture in thier proper party roles.

[arkaine23]

Re: Curebot

Pre-20 SCH plays like either as WHM or a BLM depending on your subjob. However, it does have useable nukes regardless of subjob. At 20 it gets MAB from /BLM and Drain at 21. /BLM can work quite well as a psuedo-BLM provided a SCH has some elemental merits and good INT gear. Although having Cure II at 17 and Regen at 18 starts to make SCH/WHM a decent healer.

By 40 there's no longer a need to choose between the two. You can SCH/RDM and get a full set of enfeebles instead of a half set, and Enhancing Magic spells start coming in all the way up to level 66, plus Dispel @ 64. You still have MAB and MDB. You start getting more unique spells and abilities and becoming a SCH and not a slightly-off BLM or WHM.