Hagun or KO?

[Callisto]

Re: Hagun or KO?

At very high levels of attack that's not surprising really, Y/G/K are great because of their high floor, rather than their ceiling. Their hidden boosts make it easy for even mediocre-geared SAMs to put up relatively decent numbers on higher-end mobs, but when it comes to fodder mobs other WS that are more influenced by attack/defense changes start to trump them. Toss in a Double Attack proc and Rana could easily outdamage one of the others at high levels of attack.

SAM usually still does a relatively decent job of keeping up in merits simply due to their WS frequency, but outside of ones with a solid Polearm build they're generally going to fall well behind competent WARs, DRGs, and DRKs.

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun or KO?

SAM usually still does a relatively decent job of keeping up in merits simply due to their WS frequency, but outside of ones with a solid Polearm build they're generally going to fall well behind competent WARs, DRGs, and DRKs.

Eh idk about WAR & DRK. Furthermore, the best SAM can actually beat non-relic DRG since it's impossible for DRG to get 5-hit without a COR in the PT (and in this case the SAM can get down to 4-hit so no point in the comparison) and TP much faster. Plus, DRG can't use it's own special accessory, the wyvern earring which will push a great SAM to the 25% cap. Most people don't even realize what a huge difference 25% vs 21% is, especially after applying magic & JA haste.

IIRC, without soulvoice, a SAM can cap out at 70 Haste while a DRG will be stuck at 66. Both jobs will break the 3x attack speed barrier, but the SAM's haste factor is around 53% greater than the DRG's.


WAR can use polearm too (same skill rating & gear selection as SAM actually) but it lacks the advantages a SAM gets. For example, WAR can't cap equipment haste without giving up /SAM. Furthermore, meditate only gives 60 TP over 100~180, is stuck on a 3 minute timer, and they can't sekka either.

Berserk & Aggressor are nice, but capping accuracy & attack on birds is hardly difficult to begin with, nor does double attack compare with 5-hit polearm + meditate. Never mind overwhelm, I've seen some SAM hit as high as 2600 on penta thrust, though that was an extreme case (most SAM average around 1600-2k tops with good gear.)

I can see WAR & DRK being good at Mamool Camp, but again as you pointed out SAM gains TP the fastest and Y/G/K are just naturally OP weaponskills. The only job I really feel that gives SAM a run for it's money is a Black Belt MNK with capped Guard & full counter set up. A BB MNK can really, really dish out the pain fast and keep from taking much damage thanks to guard & counter. The only time it's a problem really is when they take a hit from a TP move.

[Callisto]

Re: Hagun or KO?

I think you need to differentiate between max potential and realistic expectations here, noone is talking about 'the best SAM', I was comparing the other major DD jobs to a standard GKT SAM. Yes a SAM with a great polearm build can put up stuff like that, but in reality most SAMs you encounter are lucky if they can 6-hit without giving up Haste in the hands and feet, much less having Dusk+1/Speed/Velocious to put them to the 24% mark(and I'm not counting being a dipshit and TPing in Askar Korazin).

And capping Acc as SAM isn't really as easy as you make it sound, even with full GKT merits it takes a very strong set of gear to cap without added boosts like Hasso or /DRG accuracy bonus. I have watched even well-geared SAMs get routinely blown away by comparatively geared DDs of other jobs, having a competent Polearm build goes a long way, but things aren't that unbalanced. /DRG is a powerful subjob if used properly, but it takes an extremely aggressive playstyle and very strong gear to get the most out of it, and most of your SAMs are not likely to possess either.

And one thing that has always bugged me is bringing Sekka into it. It's not actually getting you extra WS' compared to other jobs if everyone is WSing as close as possible to 100% TP like they should be, and especially versus Colibri, SC damage is at least partially resisted extremely often, it doesn't really do that much in that situation.

[Viciouss]

Re: Hagun or KO?

Farming alky last nite and I picked up a pair of pallas bracelets (str+9, dex and agi -5), should i hold on to these and macro them in to WS, or should i stick with the hachiman?

[Neverslip]

Re: Hagun or KO?

I macro them in, myself. Hachiman for TP >> Palas's for WS atm. When I get a good haste setup up and running I was thinking of replacing the Hachiman w/ Dusk but idk yet about that. If I'm ever able to afford or happen to get by shear luck, I'll replace the Palas's with the next ones up... or attempt to get Sam relic (AF?) gloves +1.

I've decided to put my Dusk legs up on AH and if they sell, I'll switch to the less expensive Hachiman legs until I can get a pair of Askar or something. Legs... still need an upgrade for my Dnc in that slot ... I hate leg armor.

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun or KO?

(and I'm not counting being a dipshit and TPing in Askar Korazin).

O-o what's wrong with that? OK granted, Haub gives Accuracy while Askar doesn't, but Askar does add some DA and more importantly, frees you up to equip more haste. It's not like capping accuracy on birds is hard either.

Also, I find Sekka is very helpful for the odd mob where it's near death and you have over 100 TP and a WS would be overkill. You'd be amazed how often this happens with a competent polearm build and a few other polearm SAM or DRG in the PT. I'll never forget that last TP burn I was in;

My polearm still isn't capped, I don't have "great" gear (IMO anyway) and only 2 or 3 merits into pole skill so far, but despite that I was still throwing far, far more damage than I ever could with GKT at bird camp. I actually prefer to leave most of my TP gear on for Pentathrust, especially Byakko's since Acc matters most on multi-hits and Haidate is is something like +10~12 accuracy ?

[Callisto]

Re: Hagun or KO?

O-o what's wrong with that? OK granted, Haub gives Accuracy while Askar doesn't, but Askar does add some DA and more importantly, frees you up to equip more haste. It's not like capping accuracy on birds is hard either.

It's harder on SAM than you make it sound. With Askar Korazin, a Hume SAM with full GKT merits + Bushi, Hasso, Usukane Sune-Ate, Swift Belt, Cuchulain's Mantle, Peacock Charm, Toreador's + Rajas Rings, Byakko's Haidate(all of this is what I'd consider a strong TP set, not something your average SAM has all of) still comes 7 Acc short of capping.

With your standard SAM who doesn't have quite enough for Cuch/Tor and is stuck with a 5 Acc ring and an Attack+ back is looking at being 17 short, 24 if we assume they haven't had enough luck to get Usukane feet yet, even worse if they are using a Chivalrous Chain, the ability to fulltime Hasso being situational, and so on. And pretty much anyone who has meritted, pretty much...ever, can tell you that 95% of the SAMs you see TPing in Askar body have gear nowhere near as strong as above.

Re: Alky's, if you can WS in them and retain your 6-hit then they're great for Y/G/K. Don't use them for Rana.

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun or KO?

Well, admittedly I haven't capped my Acc but I usually get within the 85~90% range with the following; (FFXIGEAR is still down god damn it)

Gondo-Shizunori (I'd love a Tomoe or Leviathan's Couse but that's just not happening)
Rose Strap
Olibanum Sachet (would sincerely love a Black Tathlum but again not happening)
W. Turban
Chiv Chain
Brutal Earring
Wyvern Earring
Haubergeon (working on Askar)
Hachiman Kote (I can't use my Dusk on pole or I forfeit 5-hit setup)
Rajas Ring
Ecphoria Ring
Amemet Mantle +1
Saotome-Koshiate (working on getting Swift/Velocious with LS)
Byakko's Haidate
Fuma Sun-Ate

Like I said, far from ideal but still pretty decent I think. I'm working on capping polearm merits for SAM & DRG as well. I get 28% haste with this set up when Hasso is up so that's pretty decent (32 when I use Rindomaru since I can keep dusk on) and none of those items were terribly hard to get, just time consuming.

I'd kill for some Salvage Gear & a Love or Ancient Torque, but really, I only care about getting Maat's cap and that title before XIV comes out so meh. I just do a little end-game on the side (Limbus 2 days a week, Dyna on Sunday) so that I'm not just leveling all the time. I used to love spending all my time on HELM and crafting until it all got nerfed to shit (tyvm for that RMT) and that's a big reason why I'm looking forward to XIV. Crafting looks like it will be a blast.

[Mog]

Re: Hagun or KO?

Askar body is good if accuracy isn't an issue.

I TP in it, but only because I have full GK merits + bushinomimi + justice torque. I honestly don't miss much. /shrug

If I didn't have the accuracy though, I'd probably TP in hauby(+1) to make up for the lost skill/accuracy, which I could understand.

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun or KO?

Askar body is good if accuracy isn't an issue.

I TP in it, but only because I have full GK merits + bushinomimi + justice torque. I honestly don't miss much. /shrug

If I didn't have the accuracy though, I'd probably TP in hauby(+1) to make up for the lost skill/accuracy, which I could understand.

Oh I agree totally. That's part of why I want Askar, to compare it with my haub to see if the accuracy loss is worth the gain in haste (It probably is, but I'd like definitive proof)

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Hagun or KO?

So I hate to derail the thread, but I just started playing SAM from 37 again after leveling it for a sub on DRK and I'm curious. What equipment do you really need to get a 6 hit TP build? Or is it possible to get a 5 hit?

Seems to me that on DRK, I remember getting 22TP per strike with Scythe, but maybe not in the same span or time frame that a SAM would. But on DRK I remember it took 5 hits to get 100TP. Course I played that a year ago.

I actually have BH and its just sitting in MH collecting dust (I mostly play mages and now PLD lately) so I'm actually glad that this will help me be ubertastic when I finally get SAM 75.

I just want to try to be on par with everyone else in my LS, so maybe my SAM will be asked to go to SKY/SEA/LIMBUS/EIN/ETc/ETc.

I was thinking of getting Max Mertis on GK, but I'm hearing that I need spear too? BLeh, I've already got the Max on Marksmanship. Is this gonna f00k me up?

How in the world do you hit 2k on a ws doing birds as SAM? I've never seen it.... o.0

I guess I'll find a way to get a Hagun or some crap....

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun or KO?

So I hate to derail the thread, but I just started playing SAM from 37 again after leveling it for a sub on DRK and I'm curious. What equipment do you really need to get a 6 hit TP build? Or is it possible to get a 5 hit?

5-hit is only possible with the 480 Delay GKT or a Rindomaru with STP +15 or greater, unless you have a COR use SAM Roll.

6-hit can be gotten by level 70 with Hachiman gear, and is easier to maintain at 75 with 5/5 STP merits since Hachiman gear is for the most part, subpar compared to the alternatives at 75.


A few key pieces are Rajas Ring (+5), Rose Strap (+4) & Hachiman Kote (+8), though the really good stuff is Usukane Haramaki & Usukane Sune-Ate (+13 total from those 2 pieces). Don't bother with the Hachiman Domaru, the +9 STP is not worth trading over a Haubergeon.

[Viciouss]

Re: Hagun or KO?

You can get a 5 hit build with a polearm as well. The Engetsuto gives a 5 hit build.

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun or KO?

You can get a 5 hit build with a polearm as well. The Engetsuto gives a 5 hit build.

Any 480 delay weapon is an easy 5-hit for SAM, but the OP was asking specifically about GKT.

[ShepardG]

Re: Hagun or KO?

Here's my Sam setup, and I was beating on a fortification this morning, so no outside dmg influence:

I wanna say i'm getting a 5 hit, with my return from WS, which is 16tp. Any advice would be great ^^

TP
Hagun
Double attack Grip
Goblin Cracker
Askar Zuchhetto
PCCharm
Brutal Earring
+2 Str Earring (forgot name, no bushi)
Askar or Hauby +1 (usually Askar unless it's a high level mob)
Dusk Gloves
Toreador's Ring
Raja's
Chuculain's Mantle
Swift Belt
Byakko's
Dusk Ledelsen's +1

For WS's I swap to this:

Maat's Cap
Orwachi nodowa (sp) (no str neck piece yet ><)
Earrings stay the same
Kirin Osode
Hachiman Kote
Flame Ring
Raja's Ring
Chuculains
Warwolf Belt
Shurai Hadiate
Hachiman Sune-ate

Any advice on improvements would be great