Hagun Debate

[MrMageo]

Re: Hagun Debate

Mageo is only right as far as claiming Skill = damage, but that was never in question; the claim was that Skill = DMG, which is not to be confused with damage, and it most certainly is not. If weapon skill over the cap added directly to a weapon's DMG then Suppanomimi would make Joyeuse godly.

Um Skill over the cap of a weapon does add damage even to a weaponskill. The same way it works on the base damage of a weapon.

Lets say for instance you have an attack rating of 320 with STR and base ATK (which is calculated at 200*1 and X*.9 (where X represents the skill level over 200)

Against a mob such as colibri with a defense rating of 317

320/317 = 1.009

With even just +5 sword skill from suppa

324/317 = 1.022

With +7 from a torque

330/317 = 1.041

with +16 from 8/8 merits

344/317 = 1.085

All of these pDIF calculations are also subject to the level correction but since they are all the same I left it out. Everytime you add Skill you gain Damage as the multiplier will increase. It essentially does the same as adding attack or +2 STR. However after 200 skill the return is slightly less than ATK or +2 STR

Still though anytime you increase your Pdif you gain damage. Lets just say for example you normally hit for 40 without any +Skill beyond the cap

40/1.009 = 39 damage roughly as a base.

39*1.085= 42 damage with +28 Skill

for a 2 damage increase over having no + skill it is marginal in that regard however if you take into acount lets say a .035 level correction

1.009-.035 = .974
1.085-.035 = 1.05

39*.974 = 37
39*1.05 = 40

+3 to Damage still meh but in the long run lets say 1000 attacks that is a 3000 damage difference.

+Skill is very nice because it also increases ACC freeing up a slot for lets say some solid +ATK or STR, or Haste gear.

Regardless of the Damage Hagun still wins and whoever thinks differently is severley handicapped.

[Armando]

Re: Hagun Debate

Mageo, re-read what you quoted a couple of times.

DMG != Damage. They're not equivalent or interchangeable terms. Nobody's debating that more Skill = more damage. We're talking about the claim that +Skill = +DMG. Which is most certainly not true.

P.S. The 1 Skill -> 0.9 stat conversion only applies to Acc, you still get 1 full Attack point for every skill level even over 200.

[MrMageo]

Re: Hagun Debate

DMG is an abbreviated form of damage. If you are implying the damage of the weapon then say the damage of the weapon, because any adjustment to STR, ATK, Skill Increases your DMG or damage or D or however else you feel about abbreviating the word. It still holds true that skill increases DMG ATK increases DMG STR increases DMG. All that little number on a weapon tells you is your starting point. From there you apply fSTR(STR-VIT),and PDIF (of ATK/DEF) that gives you your damage, or DMG, or D.

[Armando]

Re: Hagun Debate

The fact that the term DMG is short for the word damage doesn't mean they're interchangeable. "DMG" is a stat on a weapon. People don't say "my DMG went up a lot after getting Haubergeon" or "my WS DMG is a lot higher when I sub /WAR." They say "my damage went up a lot" or "my WS damage is a lot higher."

Besides, the context in which it was used (the DMG of a weapon) was perfectly clear from the first post. Expecting someone to type "the damage of a weapon" or even "the DMG of a weapon" is stupid because it should be crystal clear that "DMG" refers to the DMG stat on a weapon.

[MrMageo]

Re: Hagun Debate

Who's right? I posted a link to this FFXIclopedia • View topic - Why Hagun is worth every penny. as a reference and STILL they refute it. The one guy in particular saying he out damaged 3 Hagun SAM @ Cerberus by as much as 20k total dmg. (Also claims his torque for +7 skill = 7 more dmg? I've seen nothing on the wiki that says 1 skill = 1 DMG... not in any of the dmg calculations)

So who's right? I mean even if he DID have 14 more dmg (Base DMG + Skill...) the fTP would still beat it out wouldn't it?


So I am to assume based on your logic malacite is inferring that so and so claims that his weapon did 20K more DMG per hit then? since DMG and damage are not interchangable? In this case malacite is retarded for even posting this since that would be a busted as weapon if it had a damage of 20K more than a hagun.

So who's right? I mean even if he DID have 14 more dmg (Base DMG + Skill...) the fTP would still beat it out wouldn't it?

am I also to assume malacite and you don't know what base damage is? Base damage is calculated by WEAPON DAMAGE (DMG) + fSTR * pDIF

If this was so clear as you seem to think it is then why was this even posted? I don't think you know what you think you know.

If the post said so and so claims his WPN DMG increases then yes you would be clear and redundant to post because we all know nothing directley changes the base stats of weapons but the post is clearly implied with total DMG in mind which bring +skill into it.

[Armando]

Re: Hagun Debate

am I also to assume malacite and you don't know what base damage is? Base damage is calculated by WEAPON DAMAGE (DMG) + fSTR * pDIF

If this was so clear as you seem to think it is then why was this even posted? I don't think you know what you think you know.

LOL. Are you seriously implying I don't know my game formulas? Really?

Yes, Malacite used the term Base DMG incorrectly. Big whoop. That's totally irrelevant to what I said. I said it was obvious from the context that when Malacite said "(Also claims his torque for +7 skill = 7 more dmg? I've seen nothing on the wiki that says 1 skill = 1 DMG... not in any of the dmg calculations)" that DMG was referring to weapon DMG. THAT is what we'd been talking about up 'til now, and THAT's what I was refering to when you quoted me.

[MrMageo]

Re: Hagun Debate

Well you took that from it and I took that so and so thought he was getting 1 dmg per skill on top of his base where in reality he was probably not even getting 2 damage, which is why I went in depth about the calculations of damage involving pDIF anyway. I suppose we just looked at two different sides of the same coin, kid is retarded if he thinks any thing outside of 50+ attack is going to give him a straight up +7 damage, unless he is subbing RDM and using gimped enspells.
______________________________
so I apologize I thought you were of on some other tangent lets just agree that whoever this guy is, is just lazy and that dmg and damage are always interchangable.

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun Debate

I do use dmg (though never in caps) as a short form of damage a lot (again, not in caps because that implies the DMG stat, which is what I was talking about in my OP)

[MrMageo]

Re: Hagun Debate

well either way hagun is the best which is why it costs money, I had to pay 2 mil for a dagger I used a lot, but definitley not enough to justify 2 mil but the Blau is best non relic dagger RDM can use so ya i bought one. Anyone who flat put refuses to buy the best gear for their job wether they use it enough to justify the cost or not doesn't deserve to call themselves a player of said job.

I had a LSmate who swore that HQ staves were not worth it and the new Staff Auk88(znm staff) was better. I never did get it through her skull that it was only marginally better than NQ and still behind HQ but what can you do some people just don't like to take advice.

[Dux]

Re: Hagun Debate

Interesting thread, my SAM is on the up and I was debating wether to invest the time and effort into getting a Hagun from the ENM as it is pretty costly.

Anyone who flat put refuses to buy the best gear for their job wether they use it enough to justify the cost or not doesn't deserve to call themselves a player of said job.

Isn't that just a little bit unfair? Many players like me already have 5+ 75s it's just not practicle in terms of space or farming effort vs useage to get the best equipment for each job. SAM will be my 6th 75 with THF already at 69 and MNK at 54, the prospect of being told I do not play SAM well because I don't have a Hagun or any other permieum piece of equipment is rather disturbing. I am sure it has been told many times before on this board that Player Skill > Equipment, I hope we can all remember that and not label people because of a perceived lack of commitment or skill.

[Armando]

Re: Hagun Debate

Anyone who flat put refuses to buy the best gear for their job wether they use it enough to justify the cost or not doesn't deserve to call themselves a player of said job.

Erm...no. That means anyone who isn't willing to sell their soul for Relic weapons is undeserving, or that I'm not worthy of being a PLD because I don't want to waste 250k on Askar Korazin for soloing.

[Callisto]

Re: Hagun Debate

Holy crap. That is all.

And yes Dux, believe me, it's worth it. While previously Hagun was a luxury, with the addition of Sekkanowhatever the JA is, it has become even more established as the top non-relic GKT in 99% of situations, hands down. And merit Overwhelm to 5.

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun Debate

Can't wait to see what Tachi: Rana's WSC is.

[MrMageo]

Re: Hagun Debate

Hey don't blame me blame the community. I personally don't care that was more or less a snide remark of the views as a community as a whole. Hell I melee'd in everything I did, as a Red Mage, merit parties, endgame, solo's. I have been chastised because I refused to follow the main stream. I also worked my ass off to be the best I can be at what I like to do. Ive also pimped out my DNC to be the best I can be with it, but that is my choice because I like to be the best at what I want to do.

Please don't make some per sieved notion I was trying to blanket the whole, populace with a you don't have ra/ex you must suck, because I could care less in a group situation. Look at me, like I said I only melee as RDM I got flak everyday because of it but I was good at it, because it was what I liked. Someone in this situation who makes a claim that xxx is better than yyy for the reason of bettering themselves however falls into the category of being bad. Even when players skill comes into it the skill they have tells them which is the better item to use.

Ask a skilled Black Mage what his weapon of choice is. HQ Staff
Ask a skilled Ninja what pants he likes to wear. Kitty Pants
Ask a skilled Paladin what his shield is. Aegis
Ask a skilled melee Redmage which 2 weapons he uses. Blau/Joyeuse
Ask a skilled Theif what weapon he desires. X knife
Ask a skilled Samurai what weapon he will work for and buy. Hagun

Player skill dictates a knowledge of what to wear. Player Skill is > Gear but player skill also = gear, you don't equip yourself poorly if you consider yourself well skilled. Even if it is not RA/EX you still look for the best piece of AH gear for each slot. When you see a Red Mage equip a wand and a shield for casting slow or paralyze do you ever ask him/her why? Its because they know that those pieces of gear will give them a better proc rate.

Seriously, I don't care if you come showing up in level 50 gear to a party, but if you go around tooting a horn about how epic you are with your weapon that is inferior to the one the next guy is using then I will pull out the elitest card, because its due.

[Malacite]

Re: Hagun Debate

It was a rather elitist remark. I love my 5 75's, but I don't have the time/money to pimp out all of them while @ the same time questing Maat's cap >.>