Why nerf samurai?

[Armando]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Race has nothing to do with it.

So the Elvaan has more Attack than you. Big deal. Tarutaru have more DEX (thus Accuracy,) and Accuracy is more important (i.e. you make sure you have high hit rate and then improve your damage per hit, not backwards.) It all evens out. It's not even like the stat differences are that big.

[Malacite]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Err, well technically we have the advantage since our STR is higher (in terms of Y/G/K)

[Caspian]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Would it then be alright if we kept the same stats on Soboro but made it Lv.70?
Soboro's base DMG is low but it hits twice on average every attack round. Because of that, it may as well be a DMG:80 weapon, or have half of its Delay, when it comes to attack rounds. Why does it keep up on WS? That's SAM's "fault." As stated before, if Great Katana WS STR mods were low (say, 20%,) then the damage decrease from using a 40 DMG weapon would be a lot more significant. Also, if the difference between 100 TP and 200 TP were bigger on Y/G/K, then Hagun would have the upper hand.
But because SAM WS are less weapon DMG dependent than the rest, and the difference between 100 TP and 200 TP isn't so big, and because SAM can WS so frequently, then Soboro is good. It's an issue Yuki/Gekko/Kasha and the SAM job more than it is a Soboro issue. If Soboro were a Great Axe, it wouldn't be as good in the hands of a WAR spamming Raging Rush in merits as it is now in the hands of a SAM.
Anyways, I kinda digressed there. Even if it weren't an issue with SAM and its WS, would you be complaining that it's stupid for Soboro to outdamage Hagun if Soboro required Lv.70 to equip but had the same stats? Soboro is a very strong weapon, low DMG or not. It's not on par with Lv.50 weapons any more than Ridill is on par with every other Lv.75 sword. And some Lv.75 swords really suck and are outdamaged by lower level swords easily.
Yeah, most of that is really irrelevant. It just seems to me that the issue with Soboro isn't its level requirement but rather its strength, yet people keep saying "it's lame for a Lv.50 weapon to outdamage an endgame weapon." It's like saying it's lame for a Lv.52 T.M. Espadon +2 to keep up with a Martial Anelace (which it does.)

Honestly, I probably wouldn't care if it were lvl 70, though I wonder how appreciated it would be if it were. I know Soboro is nice for several things at 75, but its damn near godly at 50.
Anyway, the same could be said of bows, the lvl 55 bow beats everything but relic at endgame, and has ever since the original rng nerf. I wish they'd add something b/w the two, but there isn't really a lot of wiggle room b/w the output of those two. Hell, I've seen parsers that show the second to last stage bow isn't even as good as Ebow.
I honestly think my biggest problem with a lvl 50 GKT being just as good if not better than the normal endgame GKT is that its makes a lot of lazy bandwagoners even more lazy and complacent. Its an excuse not to put the extra effort into the job, and thats just sad.

[Icemage]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

I'd like to toss in a small bit about bandwagonning and nerfs.

Back when FFXI was released, there were simply swarms of people playing WHM, RDM and eventually BRD because they were "easy tickets" to level 75 and had so very little dependence on gear.

None of those three jobs received a nerf at that time (though indirectly WHM has gotten steadily nerfed over time as RDM became progressively more powerful through the addition of gears to improve Convert ratios, merits to improve their Enfeebling/Elemental skills, etc.).

So for all the people whining that it's bandwagonning that has precipitated the nerfing of your favorite job, I put this respectfully but STFU because you have no idea what you're talking about. You guys have no idea what a real nerf is. I've seen my favorite craft (fishing) get nerfed over, and over, and over, and over to the point today where my Lu Shang's Fishing Rod only gets pulled out if I'm feeling nostalgic.

The nerfs are there to address imbalances that affect the health of the game.


Icemage

[Caspian]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

I've seen my favorite craft (fishing) get nerfed over, and over, and over, and over to the point today where my Lu Shang's Fishing Rod only gets pulled out if I'm feeling nostalgic.

I had several friends who would fish for days on end trying to get 100 fishing skill. Probably the best reliable way to make money, only to see it blow up in their faces. I still feel sorry for Jei and the MONTHS he spent just to get an Ebisu rod.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Speaking as someone who fishes a lot - a-fucking-men.

[Malacite]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Damn RMT in general for bringing about the various crafting (most notable H.E.L.M.) nerfs > _ <

I used to enjoy mining and logging...

And Caspian, Soboro's level is irrelevant. Look at how long other pieces of gear last. Technically, MNK NIN and SAM can get by with O.Kote right to 75. Besides, have you ever done Soboro Run? It's not always easy getting enough people to do it, and even when you do it's a bitch. I got lucky and managed to get the last drop of the night.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

I'd like to toss in a small bit about bandwagonning and nerfs.

Back when FFXI was released, there were simply swarms of people playing WHM, RDM and eventually BRD because they were "easy tickets" to level 75 and had so very little dependence on gear.

If there was a bandwagon for BRD at the start of FFXI, I must have missed it, because the only bandwagon I saw started in the Summer of 2005 around the time of the RNG nerf, every dissheveled and defeated melee just flocked to the jobs and levelled it with absolutely no respect whatsover for being a good BRD, they class just kept going more steeply downhill since the release of ToA. The quality of most BRDs these days is questionable, as is the quality of many of the few CORs out there.

None of those three jobs received a nerf at that time (though indirectly WHM has gotten steadily nerfed over time as RDM became progressively more powerful through the addition of gears to improve Convert ratios, merits to improve their Enfeebling/Elemental skills, etc.).

So for all the people whining that it's bandwagonning that has precipitated the nerfing of your favorite job, I put this respectfully but STFU because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Thing is SAMs were spazzing over this before the nerf actually hit. When RNGs got nerfed, we didn't really even get an idea of how we were getting nerf. SE was WAY more upfront about thier plans for SAM. They didn't do anything to with SAM to save face, they just brought it back down a little. SAM has not been broken and left broken for over a year and a half like RNG - that was SE being stubborn and trying to save face over a massive screw up on our distance/accuracy and attack formula.

I mean, really, no matter what SE has done to SAM, this nerf is nothing compared to what BST and RNG have had to deal with. And, with all due respect, I'm going to say even WHMs can kindly be quiet on the matter - WHM just fell out of vouge and that could change. RNG was broken for a year and a half and BST left broken for much much longer. Hell BST didn't get a party role until this week - we could become a decoy tank.

The recent changes to both are very good ones. And I find it funny non-RNGs are spazzing over the buff to our attack when its really not a big one, I could break big numbers without Velocity Shot before, its the Haste that's making all the difference, it gives us what we need to keep up on the DoT side with other melee. I really think those calling for a nerf on Velocity Shot are barking up the wrong tree only because they feel the recently lost something.

[Tipsy]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

I havn't read alot of replies in this thread, however, I do think SAM was abit powerful, but, that goes to say for alot of jobs.

SAM more-so, imo. I mean, I've played with SAMs before; the good kind. The ones that know what they're doing. And they get TP so fast and blast off 1.3k+ without SATA, or 700-800s with soboro, it's sort of rediculous. And end game merit fights don't last long enough for other jobs to throw they're 2 cents in either.

I'm not saying SAM deserved it, because, they don't, and SAM wasn't the only job effected.

[Vyuru]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

And Caspian, Soboro's level is irrelevant. Look at how long other pieces of gear last. Technically, MNK NIN and SAM can get by with O.Kote right to 75.

But that is armor, show me ANY other weapon that lasts for 25 levels of exp like the Soboro does.

If there was a bandwagon for BRD at the start of FFXI, I must have missed it

I think the first bandwagon was Dragoon, followed shortly after by Bard, then Ranger, etc.

Hell BST didn't get a party role until this week

I think that's stretching it a bit, Bst have always had a party role, however Bsts have always shunned parties to the point no one wanted to work with them, or knew how to work with them. It really makes me think of how Blm split off into their Manaburn parties and now can't get into the TP burns and regular parties.

And while there are exceptions to the rule, I do feel that the above statement is largely true.

So for all the people whining that it's bandwagonning that has precipitated the nerfing of your favorite job, I put this respectfully but STFU because you have no idea what you're talking about. You guys have no idea what a real nerf is.

To be fair, 95% of the time it IS bandwagonning that has precipitated the nerfing of any aspect of the game. Fishing was abused, it was nerfed. Monks abusing relic knuckles started the TP nerf. People abusing /samurai brought on the Meditate nerf. People abusing Ranger brought on the Ranger, well, I won't call it nerf I'll call it an adjustment *. I could go on with gardening/crafting/other nerfs, but I think you see my point.

There was enough bandwagonning going on for samurai that I was seeing shouts for Soboro runs in Jeuno/Whitegate. Most of the exp parties I have been invited to recently have had 1-2 samurai. Each of the 6 seperate runs that I have been invited on for the 2nd rank Mamool Ja assault has been by a 3-4x samurai burn group.

I also take a little bit of an exception to the bolded part of your statement. Just about every job that I can think of from the RoZ and the original jobs have been nerfed in some way. I don't think it's right to tell people that they have no idea what a true nerf feels like.


Instead of people being upset about these changes, how about being happy?

We (two handers) are not nerfed beyond all repair, we can still hold our own and damn well in some cases. It would not surprise me at all to see SE increase our damage a little bit in the near future, they have a history of reducing by alot and then giving a little back. Lately it seems as if SE is more on top of the ball as far as updates are concerned, so if we are to see something I would expect it to be soon. And hey, it looks like Blm and Tanks may have more of a role again in exp parties.

Furthermore, this update has been incredibly recent, we haven't even had time to figure out what the optimal gear setup may be under these new conditions. Maybe exp parties will be made in a more balanced way and we can actually start getting some buffs again like Haste or summoner buffs or even some new dancer/scholar/whatever buffs?

This nerf was seriously trivial compared to the past nerf/adjustments, let's be glad for that at least and look for ways to work with this.







*:

I call it an adjustment mostly because monster Ranger's accuracy/attack has always been based off of distance and type of bow. The fact that a player's ranged accuracy/attack was not based off of distance or type of bow was broken.

[Icemage]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

I can think of from the RoZ and the original jobs have been nerfed in some way. I don't think it's right to tell people that they have no idea what a true nerf feels like.

I have level 0 fishermen who can fish up Ryugu Titans (level 130+ fish) with laughable ease because they're using a fishing program while I'm sitting with 96+6 skill plus fishing support and I can't even land one without using an external perk like a Penguin Ring.

Seriously. Cry me a river. When a level 1 Dragoon can outdamage your level 75 Samurai, THEN you can whine.


Icemage

[Patchinko]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

"Bandwagoning" is a symptom of a greater problem that inevitably is that one job or setup is out of balance with the rest.

It isn't the cause of the imbalance, nor the ultimate cause of the nerf that was the inevitable response to the imbalance.

In essence, it's silly to blame people who took advantage of an imbalance for the imbalance, and sillier still to blame them for the imbalance being fixed.

If the fix turns out to be too great of a nerf, no doubt you'll see a "bandwagoning" of people leaving that job and turning to the flavor of the month! That would be a sign that perhaps there needs to be another look at the "fix".

Anyway, blaming anyone but the company and people that program the game is silly.

Again, needs more Rice Balls!

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

But that is armor, show me ANY other weapon that lasts for 25 levels of exp like the Soboro does.

Cross-counters? Not that I consider Cross-counters to be in the same league as Soboro. But CC can easily take a MNK from 50 to 75.

[Malacite]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

That and T.M. Hooks +1/2 (lv 52 I believe?)

Viking Axe lasts a good while for WAR too... elemental staves... there are quite a few good weapons that last a long time.

[ioshua]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

While bandwagoning precedes nerfs, it actually doesn't cause them.
Look at any kind of nerf like this in any game and you'll see it went like this:

1) Class is overpowered
2) Players flock to it
3) Dev takes notice
4) Dev nerfs

In a nutshell. There's tons of this going on all the time and it's more damage control than anything. The speed of 3 is proportional to the size of 2. Just like the size of 4 is to the severity of 1. Not a fact, just a guideline. It also works in reverse.

1) Class is underpowered
2) Nobody plays
3) Dev notices
4) Dev buffs

3 is usually enhanced by the few players left in 2 either whining for months or writing really hot math docs and providing strong argument. However, since underpowered classes ruin games less than overpowered ones (arguable but I feel it to be true) then the buff cycle often has a much lower frequency.

Bandwagoning doesn't make nerfs happen, it just shines a spotlight on imbalances that are already present.