Why nerf samurai?

[Omni]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

2-3 occasional strike soboro, double attack, hasso's haste, meditate, overwhelm, zanshin, store-tp merits and equipment. you have to be completely delusional if all this PLUS being able to throw down 900 dmg gekkos was 'balanced' or 'fair'.

yea, i think this rivals the pre-tp nerf drg/sam penta splooge fests.

mal, all your complaints arent out of being fair or balanced its about feeling that you are top dog. you think its really balanced for a soboro to out dd a hagun? considering how great of a weapon hagun is, that a weapon 20+ levels before it and more than 30% difference in dmg rating should be able to OUT DO a hagun?

you call for being fair and just for 2 handers but how really fair is that? being fair isnt about stroking egos, its about being logical and objective. you're way to subjective about this to talk about fairness.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

The joys of merits ... "tank? hate? just /NIN and ignore it, and grab that RDM, they can heal forever without resting and haste besides..."

Obviously, you've never met DDs who decided their damage output is more important the recasting Utsusemi... I can try, but there is basically no way to save idiots who already have the critter mad, HP in the red, 20 sec from Utsusemi: Ni recast, but decide to spam big WS right now instead of putting up Utsusemi: Ichi.

Try that when I'm down to 40 MP, and I'd be running away to do Convert so I'd have MP to raise you. =b RDM does not have Cure V, people. (Thankfully I haven't bump into those lately; hate wasting good MP on raises... Unless I get a healing magic skill up.)

There's gotta be a better way of doing things than simply nerfing the stats a bit more ; ;

If you want game to work right, there must be balance between players and monsters. Given the currently condition, it means nerfing players, or strengthening monsters--which works out to be the exact same thing. (Toughing monster is just another way of nerfing players. Duh.)

I was loving being able to full-time Soboro and out dmg Hagun (with the previous 1.75 TP mods Soboro was raping in merits) and not having to even consider Sushi anymore > _ <;

You think it was a good thing that non-two-handers have to weight the merits between food types, but two-handers didn't? That's just freaking selfish of you. >_>

Soboro Sukehiro is a wacky weapon. No player should be able to show up at a merit party and just own the parser with that and average, normal gear. Players should be required to build special setups around it to make it work, given its low level and low damage rating. (e.g. SAM/RNG with zillion gears to max out damage from TP building, and switch to aggressive r.acc/r.atk set for Sidewinder.)

[Kirsteena]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Personally, anyone who thinks a level 50 GKT outdamaging anything else available is right has a seriously skewed view of the Vana'diel. This thread smacks of "wahwahwah woe is me I can't do the uber damage anymore". No, you have just had balance given back. After all, if everyone played sam all the time, where is the fun in that? Just like every other "nerf" that has come along, SE are trying to redress the balance of something that is seriously broken. They may take too far, but they are acknowledging there is a problem. Malacite, I was with you till you started on with the quotes that Itazura pointed out and whining about losing damage. Now, I don't really care.

The ones who have it rough atm are the drks and drg who already lost acc on Guillo/Penta, but now have the new ratios to deal with.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

...

Um... even when the "bandwagon" was high for RNGs, the class was still relatively low in population in contrast to other melee classes out there due to percieved expense. In truth, what distinguished the "bandwagon" RNG from the real ones was that the bandwagon RNGs were CHEAPASS scorpion-arrow users that could still do insane loads of damage because slugshot/sidewinder ignored mob defense.

That was the imbalance, people who underplayed the job were still able to do very well on the damage end. RNG didn't just get nerfed by itself, it was followed closely by another adjustment that calculated STR/Attack vs. Mob VIT/Defense a little differently than it had been in the past. This actually helped all melees, but the Ranged Attack/Accuracy formula on the RNG "adjustment" was broken and left broken for well over a year.

When the nerf took place, the RNG bandwagoners hopped over to BLM. Some RNGs stayed, others quit. It remains a relatively low population class by perception, but its actually much more of an affordable class to play now. People just cling to the funny-money too tightly to let themselves have fun with it.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Very true. We have a very pimped out rng in our ls, and when we were fighting JoLove, the damage he was doing compared to our slightly cheaper rng was phenominal. I dread to think what he spent in ammo on that fight, but his sidewinders were double most of the rest of the rng.

[Armando]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

you think its really balanced for a soboro to out dd a hagun? considering how great of a weapon hagun is, that a weapon 20+ levels before it and more than 30% difference in dmg rating should be able to OUT DO a hagun?

One word: Ridill.

I guess the point I'm bringing up is: sure, it's wacky, but just because it's a Lv.50 weapon doesn't mean it can't beat a Lv.70 weapon. If it's that good, then it's that good.

I said it in another thread, but dropping your weapon DMG by half won't drop your WS's damage by half because your weapon's DMG is only part of your total DMG in your WS. Soboro WS will always do more than half the damage of a normal WS unless Y/G/K's 75% STR mods suddenly vanish into thin air.

Also, there's no reason for Hagun to be good - many Martial weapons suck. Martial Anelace is just a toy for RDMs to Savage Blade in when they don't have access to Vorpal Blade or Evisceration. Martial Staff is a toy for SMNs to Spirit Taker with. Martial Lance(?)...I'm pretty sure I've never seen a DRG bother with it. Not that it has anything to do with the subject at hand, but SAM is lucky to have a Martial weapon that's actually good.

[Kirsteena]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Ridill is level 73 iirc, and if you can easily get hold of one, more power to you... Not really a great comparison to Soboro and the comparitive ease of aquiring.

[VZX]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Sorry if I misunderstood, but your writing is very difficult to read.
As for RNG, many people do think the boost was overboard, and S-E will re-adjust it at some point.

Overboard?
I don't think so. It's still far than how SE buff the 2hander.

and as for SAM. It was broken... at least when I merited it for a while with soboro, It's broken. I don't have shura/byakko's haidate yet, but seeing I WS every 2 rounds, it just sick. Plus you just got insanely high accuracy from +1DEX -> +1acc (hello there accuracy bonus IV). Stack that with haste+2x march, you are just a WS spam machine close to KC, if not more.

I used to spam 3 Kasha for 500~600 before any of the 2 WAR in my PT land raging rush/steel cyclone, it's just imbalance seeing that I have 0 GKT merit and be able to do that.

[Ziero]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Bah, see that's what I hate.
I still hold that what SE did after the 1st adjustment was just right. That said, it's damn shame that people who half ass jobs can still be great in those conditions.
There's gotta be a better way of doing things than simply nerfing the stats a bit more ; ;
I was loving being able to full-time Soboro and out dmg Hagun (with the previous 1.75 TP mods Soboro was raping in merits) and not having to even consider Sushi anymore > _ <;
I can't stand losing that because a lot of people jump onto a job and more or less get away with murder (shit gear/skill, stupid PT set ups...)
It happened with RNG, and now it's happened again (though not quite as bad) and I"m just fed up of it !!!

Two things:

1) Do you know why bandwagons start? It's because an imbalance is found and all the people who want to do the most dmg with the least effort flock to that job. The imbalance becomes an exploit and the exploit is eventually fixed. It wasn't the bandwagoners who caused Sam to be 'balanced', it was the fact that the job was so broken everyone and their dog wanted to play it. Bandwagons don't cause nerfs, they just highlight what's soon to be nerfed.

2) I find it ironic that one of your biggest complaints is that a 2 hander should be out doing a War/nin when you are in effect abusing the same things that made War/nin so powerful. That being absurd attack speed and absurder WS, all while ignoring the actual DMG of the weapon. You say you think a 2 hander weapon should do more damage per hit then a one hander because of the size of the weapon, yet cling to a two hander that has lower base Dmg then most 1 handed weapons at lvl 60. And then you go on to say that dramatically lower damage weapon should be able to out perform a much higher lvl weapon?

(which may explain why they've nerfed it now even though it's true Samurai weren't as out of control as 2H Great Axe Warriors).
Icemage

As a Gaxe using War, from what I saw lvling, Sams were far more powerful. Besides the ability to spam WS almost twice a fight, they were also able to do more powerful WS. Add to that a weapon with a near 50% DA rate that can be obtained at lvl 50 and you have a pretty imbalanced set up.

[Malacite]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

WAR/NIN is so stupidly powerful because WAR loses nothing by subbing Ninja and gains everything. With /NIN Rampage is potentially an 8-hit critical WS, and with Utsu Ichi and Ni there's rarely any reprecussions. Throw in a Ridil or Joyeuse and you have one sick DD.

Now how is this fair? Even a "AH WAR" (I find that term derogatory for the record. You can still use gear off the AH and be good at your job) can easily spam 1k+ rampages, I see it all the time. So what's wrong with giving 2 handers a fighting chance?

I could /NIN on SAM/DRK/DRG, but that'd be stupid. I'd be losing too many good abilities just for a safety net, meanwhile WAR (and to a lesser extent MNK >_>) lose nothing. Speaking as a 75 WAR and SAM, I can honestly say I detest WAR/NIN immensely for this (and spampage is boring... I much prefer GAX) and yet SE apparently sees nothing wrong with this. Or Kraken DRK for that matter...

As nuts as my SAM was after the 2nd update (And for the record, I was geared out for my Soboro ok? I know it's a low dmg weapon and so I pile on attack and STR as much as I can to compensate. And it can and does outparse hagun in some instances [rightfully so] because of the sheer DoT of the weapon. I put a lot of effort into getting too, so kindly piss off) I still had to hold back and keep myself in check.

Otherwise I'd find myself dead in a heatbeat if I kept up full-time Berserk + Hasso and WSing all willie-nillie. God forbid I get to enjoy a nice performance boost before idiots with no skill/money come along and ruin it for the rest of us > <;

Now, I won't argue that 2k+ Gekkos with Hagun and Overwhelm is pretty disgusting, especially when G. Colibri are supposed to resist Slashing if I'm not mistaken? (but ToAU mobs are weak as hell anyway) However I still think SE went a tad far, and most offensive of all about this is how they abruptly flip flopped.

They say they want to make 2 handed more appealing, give it a competitive edge since they've stated before they're not too fond of all the /NIN craze (and yet they do little about it...) and then suddenly about face and reverse their buffs.

Which is it SE? For the sake of argument, I'll agree that 2 handed needed to be toned down somewhat. It still feels SE went a bit far though (reverting Y/G/K to their original mods + 4:3 ratio + lowered damage is a bit much...)


And top Dog nothing, I want to see some balance for a change between 2 handed users & Ranged Attacks vs Dual Wield and lolIcan'tdieshadows.

[Armando]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Which is it SE? For the sake of argument, I'll agree that 2 handed needed to be toned down somewhat. It still feels SE went a bit far though (reverting Y/G/K to their original mods + 4:3 ratio + lowered damage is a bit much...)

Does anyone here even know if Y/G/K got reverted to their original mods? Because the 4:3 ratio is still superior to 4:2 (and in my opinion a 1:1 ratio on Accuracy was stupid because you could eat meat + equip for haste on pretty much everything. This game's already lame enough with gear in that there's a fairly strict hierarchy of stats, but at least before you had to adjust your gear because you might not be able to maintain a good enough hit rate to use meat + haste on everything.)

If Y/G/K multipliers have been scaled back but are still higher than before the first 2-hander updates, then you'd still be better off than before the first update.

And for non-SAMs, the their WS weren't touched at all, so they're still better off than before.

[Caspian]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Complaining about a 4:3 ratio will get you nowhere. Thats better than rangers or any singlehanded weapon user gets.
Also, using Krakens and Ridills as justificiation for a job being overpowered doesn't work. Its more extreme, but its kinda like saying that its not fair for the guy you're meriting with to be doing more damage because he has a fully upgraded relic weapon. Both Kraken and Ridill are quite difficult to obtain.
Even if you tried to lump them in with Soboro as all being multi-hit weapons and say if Ridill and Kraken are so great, then why can't Soboro be too, it doesn't work. Its been said many times...Soboro is a lvl 50 weapon with VERY low base damage. Hagun is arguably the best non-upgraded relic GKT in the game. Multi-hit or not, its pretty weak for a lvl. 50 weapon to out-DOT an endgame weapon.

[Armando]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

Even if you tried to lump them in with Soboro as all being multi-hit weapons and say if Ridill and Kraken are so great, then why can't Soboro be too, it doesn't work. Its been said many times...Soboro is a lvl 50 weapon with VERY low base damage. Hagun is arguably the best non-upgraded relic GKT in the game. Multi-hit or not, its pretty weak for a lvl. 50 weapon to out-DOT an endgame weapon.

Would it then be alright if we kept the same stats on Soboro but made it Lv.70?

Soboro's base DMG is low but it hits twice on average every attack round. Because of that, it may as well be a DMG:80 weapon, or have half of its Delay, when it comes to attack rounds. Why does it keep up on WS? That's SAM's "fault." As stated before, if Great Katana WS STR mods were low (say, 20%,) then the damage decrease from using a 40 DMG weapon would be a lot more significant. Also, if the difference between 100 TP and 200 TP were bigger on Y/G/K, then Hagun would have the upper hand.

But because SAM WS are less weapon DMG dependent than the rest, and the difference between 100 TP and 200 TP isn't so big, and because SAM can WS so frequently, then Soboro is good. It's an issue Yuki/Gekko/Kasha and the SAM job more than it is a Soboro issue. If Soboro were a Great Axe, it wouldn't be as good in the hands of a WAR spamming Raging Rush in merits as it is now in the hands of a SAM.

Anyways, I kinda digressed there. Even if it weren't an issue with SAM and its WS, would you be complaining that it's stupid for Soboro to outdamage Hagun if Soboro required Lv.70 to equip but had the same stats? Soboro is a very strong weapon, low DMG or not. It's not on par with Lv.50 weapons any more than Ridill is on par with every other Lv.75 sword. And some Lv.75 swords really suck and are outdamaged by lower level swords easily.

Yeah, most of that is really irrelevant. It just seems to me that the issue with Soboro isn't its level requirement but rather its strength, yet people keep saying "it's lame for a Lv.50 weapon to outdamage an endgame weapon." It's like saying it's lame for a Lv.52 T.M. Espadon +2 to keep up with a Martial Anelace (which it does.)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

I still say that the 1 STR = 1 Attack should have stayed with the 2-Handers, and the 1 DEX = 1 Accuracy to the 1-Handers.

[Mog]

Re: Why nerf samurai?

When a tarutaru samurai (me) starts outdamaging elvaan DD's, you know it's time for a change...