Overwhelm Question

[tdh]

Recently hit SAM75, and already had some Merit points stocked up for Overwhelm. Hit Lv.75, ran off and picked up Lv.2 Overwhelm then headed back.

Get back to the camp, pop off my first Gekko and it breaks 1300. I'm excited. Fire off the second one, it's a "normal" one. Still 1k, but not "Overwhelming."

At the time I was in a SAM Burn. 4 SAMs, WHM and a RDM, so all 4 of us were staring the mob in the mouth and things were dieing crazy fast. Today I get a party with a PLD, 2 DRGS, and a MNK. Now some of the times I wasn't about to get it lined up in time, but other times I should have seen a big number, and it fell well short.

My question is this. Is Overwhelm like Trick Attack in the respect that if you aren't perfectly lined up, it misses? Or doesn't proc? I've never heard anybody say this about it, but for all I know I just wasn't listening at the time. Of course this could just be the random variable, but I had to ask.

Another thing I'm considering is that I don't have any Great Katana merits while a lot of the other SAM's I've seen have theirs capped, but it's worth an ask.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Overwhelm Question

I believe you might have had over 200TP or got a double attack when your WS broke 1300.

I'm really confused as to how SAM with GK do 1000+ DMG with Y/G/K at 100TP. I must be calculating something incorrectly. I'd really appriciate someone helping me understand where I'm making my mistake. Perhaps SAM have much more STR than I would think.

Character
Lv75 Elvaan Male with SAM/WAR
Base STR: 75

Equipment
Main: Hagun
Sub: Pole Strap (Double Attack+2%)
Ammo: Olibanum Sachet (STR+2)
Head: Wyvern Helm (STR+5)
Neck: Chivalrous Chain (STR+3)
Earring1: Bushinomimi (STR+2 Great Katana Skill+5)
Earring2: Brutal Earring (Double Attack+5%)
Body: Haubergeon (STR+5, ATK+10)
Hands: Hachiman Kote (STR+4)
Ring1: Rajas Ring (STR+5)
Ring2: Flame Ring (STR+5)
Back: Amemet Mantle +1 (STR+2, ATK+15)
Waist: Warwolf Belt (STR+5)
Legs: Myochan Haidate (STR+3)
Feet: Hachiman Sune-Ate (STR+3)

dSTR
Total STR: 75+44+10 (Base+Gear+Hasso)
Enemy VIT: 77
dSTR: 52

Weapon Skill Damage
D: 75
fSTR: (dSTR+4)/4 = 14 (cap is 16)
WSC: (STR*0.75*0.83) = ~80
fTP: 2.00
PDIF: 1.6-2.4 (assuming cRatio is capped)

Formula: (D+fSTR+WSC) * fTP * PDIF

100TP
Low Damage: (75+13+80) * 2 * 1.6 = 537
High Damage: (75+13+80) * 2 * 2.4 = 806

Low Double Attack WS: (75+13+80) * 3 * 1.6 = 806
High Double Attack WS: (75+13+80) * 3 * 2.4 = 1209

200TP
Low Damage: (75+13+80) * 2.5 * 1.6 = 672
High Damage: (75+13+80) * 2.5 * 2.4 = 1008

Low Double Attack WS: (75+13+80) * 3.5 * 1.6 = 940
High Double Attack WS: (75+13+80) * 3.5 * 2.4 = 1411

Where am I making my mistake? Do GK SAM save for 200 or 300 TP? Do GK SAM equip much more STR than I'm assuming here? I know that with a little more STR a double attack WS could reach 1.3k.

Personally I don't have much STR, so I prefer using Penta Thrust where my large base DEX helps and I usually get fTP = 4 or 5 at 100TP.

Engetsuto Penta Thrust with 93 STR, 88 DEX, and capped cRatio

D: 85
fSTR: (dSTR+4)/4 = 5 (cap is 17)
WSC: (STR+DEX)*0.20*0.83 = ~30

100TP
Low 4-Hit Damage: (85+5+30) * 4 * 1.6 = 768
High 4-Hit Damage: (85+5+30) * 4 * 2.4 = 1152

Low 5-Hit Damage: (85+5+30) * 5 * 1.6 = 960
High 5-Hit Damage: (85+5+30) * 5 * 2.4 = 1440

Low 6-Hit Damage: (85+5+30) * 6 * 1.6 = 1152
High 6-Hit Damage: (85+5+30) * 6 * 2.4 = 1728

I'm definately not capping my cRatio without meriting Polearm and Overwhelm along with inviting a BRD in XP. However, I've seen these numbers fighting TW, so I know they are entirely possible. I've done over 2.2k once against a TW Greater Bird.

[Armando]

Re: Overwhelm Question

Overwhelm gives 5% more damage to your WS for each level. That means you do 10% more damage now. With a damage range so wide, don't expect Overwhelm to pull your lower WS damages above your old maximum. To be quite honest, you don't have an easy way of knowing if your Overwhelm kicked in, unless the game keeps the buff if you're not lined up with the mob?

Ryoii, you're forgetting that PDIF has changed, and that for two-handers it can get close to 3.0 without crits.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Overwhelm Question

Is it known whether Overwhelm is an ATK bonus or DMG bonus? Under the Wiki merits page it says "Attack Bonus," and under the Overwhelm page it says "Damage Bonus."

I was unaware that the new max normal pDIF was significantly over 2.4. I know that criticals now cap at 3.15. I'll research pDIF some more. With 3.0 pDIF, I do see the high end of Y/G/K breaking 1k without a double attack. I'm definately curious to do some more comparisons of Penta Thrust and Y/G/K considering this data. I doubt GK will ever win on Sea Puks where my ACC is capped and I get a 25% DMG bonus.

[tdh]

Re: Overwhelm Question

I'm an Elvaan as well, so our STR is the same, but I have access to STR+60 with gear and Hasso before food.

In the Merit menu, Overwhelm states: "Grants a damage bonus to weapon skills performed face-to-face with an enemy. Increase damage bonus by 5 percent."

I'm currently 4/5 on my way to 3/3, putting me at 15% "whatever it is." lol Now with Hagun, that automatically puts you at 200% TP, which helps significantly for Kasha, and gives a decent bonus to Gekko. Even with that, I've seen 1300 Gekkos with a Soboro, and 1500 Kashas with Hagun and NIN sub.

Now admittedly, some of those numbers are skewed a little from BRD and two handers ability to now eat Meat Dishes with out trying, but 1k WS aren't that hard to reach any more. Now Double Attack help quite a bit, but it's no longer required. Nor is Sneak Attack, especially after the update. Merit party I'm currently in, I have had a wide range. 600dmg to 1500 damage, but I'd say my average is 1100.

Another 7k EXP, final Overwhelm Merit, and hopefully I can bribe my Dynamis Ls to let me go as SAM instead of RDM for once.

[Armando]

Re: Overwhelm Question

I've heard it's simply a damage bonus, but can't say from experience.

I'll research pDIF some more.

Not much to find yet AFAIK. There's very few people with the drive to test stuff. Coulda done it myself by now if I had time to play, but sadly I don't.

I'm definately curious to do some more comparisons of Penta Thrust and Y/G/K considering this data. I doubt GK will ever win on Sea Puks where my ACC is capped and I get a 25% DMG bonus.

Yeah, doubt Y/G/K can beat Penta on Puks.

lol Now with Hagun, that automatically puts you at 200% TP, which helps significantly for Kasha, and gives a decent bonus to Gekko.

...? I'm fairy certain Gekko and Kasha have the same modifiers.

Congrats in advance on your 3/3 Overwhelm by the way.

[tdh]

Re: Overwhelm Question

...? I'm fairy certain Gekko and Kasha have the same modifiers.

Congrats in advance on your 3/3 Overwhelm by the way.

You're right, after further review, Gekko & Kasha have the exact same modifiers. TP as well as STR. But with that being said, why is that Kasha just utterly sucks unless you're using a Hagun? I can bust out my Soboro and do a fairly consistent (As consistent as a Soboro can be) 600dmg Gekko. I fire off a Kasha for solo Light because Soboro's cool like that, and it closes for like 400dmg. I've noticed the same thing on other GKTs as well. Hmm.

Got my last needed Merit Point, now an issue of going and getting it, and time to get a bigger EXP buffer. ^^

I'm definately curious to do some more comparisons of Penta Thrust and Y/G/K considering this data. I doubt GK will ever win on Sea Puks where my ACC is capped and I get a 25% DMG bonus.

As a SAM, yes your Yukis, Gekkos, and Kashas will out do your Pentas. A DRG of course would be able to out do you. But in most instances SAMs big 3 can out do a Penta DRG. Most SAMs use Polearm as a farming toy. I don't have the skill to use it as anything yet. ><

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Overwhelm Question

I'd also say that Hagun helps Kasha in that the paralyze effect is more potent, but you will rarely need to make the silence effect from Gekko more potent. I did not think about the Lv3 skillchain aspects though.

I'm definately not suggesting that Elvaan use Polearm in XP. I struggle to reach the needed ACC even with 10 extra DEX from being Mithra. It will probably never be acceptable on HNM, but I'm not interested in fighting those.

Lv75 Elvaan SAM/WAR
Base STR: 75
Base DEX: 65

Lv75 Mithra SAM/WAR
Base STR: 67 (-8)
Base DEX: 75 (+10)

[tdh]

Re: Overwhelm Question

I'm definately not suggesting that Elvaan use Polearm in XP. I struggle to reach the needed ACC even with 10 extra DEX from being Mithra. It will probably never be acceptable on HNM, but I'm not interested in fighting those.

Lv75 Elvaan SAM/WAR
Base STR: 75
Base DEX: 65

Lv75 Mithra SAM/WAR
Base STR: 67 (-8)
Base DEX: 75 (+10)

Are you talking about Acc problems in Merits using Polearm or Great Katana? With Lv.276 (Natural Lv.75 A+ Rated skill cap.), and Hasso you only need Acc+36 to hit the Accuracy Cap. That's an Optical Hat, Chiv. Chain, Acc+5 rings x2, a Life Belt, and no food. All which are relatively inexpensive these days.

Of course if you're talking about Polearm accuracy then ignore all of what I just typed out. ^^

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Overwhelm Question

Are you talking about Acc problems in Merits using Polearm or Great Katana? With Lv.276 (Natural Lv.75 A+ Rated skill cap.), and Hasso you only need Acc+36 to hit the Accuracy Cap. That's an Optical Hat, Chiv. Chain, Acc+5 rings x2, a Life Belt, and no food. All which are relatively inexpensive these days.

Of course if you're talking about Polearm accuracy then ignore all of what I just typed out. ^^

Actually I really appriciate what you wrote. It gives me a target for my ACC: 200+76*0.9+65(DEX)+36(Gear)+10(Hasso) = 379. I think I'm rather close with my current gear using Polearm.

Polearm Skill: 240
Base DEX: 75
DEX Gear: 3+1+5+4+4=17
ACC Gear: 2+2+2+5+3+10+10=34
WS ACC Gear: 2
Total WS ACC: 200+40*0.9+75+17+34+2+10=374

I'm so close. Once I have an Optical Hat instead of an Empress Hairpin, I'll be at 379 before adding WS ACC gear. Also Polearm and Store TP merits will permit adjustments in gear.

BTW, I'd be happy to go merit with you in a trio and see if we can figure out how Overwhelm works. We could start with you tanking while we record your MIN and MAX values for Kasha. Then I could switch to tanking while you try various angles for a while. Against Sea Puk we could get fairly good data since they only span two levels. I'll be available Friday after 6 PM CST.

[tdh]

Re: Overwhelm Question

Actually I really appriciate what you wrote. It gives me a target for my ACC: 200+76*0.9+65(DEX)+36+10 = 379. I think I'm rather close with my current gear using Polearm.

Polearm Skill: 240
Base DEX: 75
DEX Gear: 3+1+5+4+4=17
ACC Gear: 2+2+2+5+3+10+10=34
WS ACC Gear: 2
Total WS ACC: 200+40*0.9+75+17+34+2+10=374

I'm so close. Once I have an Optical Hat instead of an Empress Hairpin, I'll be at 379 before adding WS ACC gear. Also Polearm and Store TP merits will permit adjustments in gear.

Looking at the same information for me, if I had cap'd Polearm skill, sushi would be all that's required to put me at the Acc Cap.



Optical Hat, Haubergeon, Chiv. Chain, Woodsman Rings x2, Life Belt putting me at Acc+45. Toss in Hasso and Sole Sushi and I should be able to Merit in that instance. Of course this doesn't say anything about Weapon Skill accuracy. I'd still rather go with Gekko/Kasha spam because a 1 hit Penta would just make me cry, and even in some instances due to diminished attack from lower skill, a full hit Penta could still be pretty low.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Overwhelm Question

Sushi would definitely kill your cRatio with Polearm. The 86 ATK (6 STR and 80 ATK) you could get from a Royal Omelette is a huge help. I'd suggest finding more ACC, but I doubt getting to 420 will be possible or necessary.

I just found that Lv82 Greater Colibri have 339 evasion. They would require 407 ACC (339+40+28) to cap hit rate at 95%. I'll probably max out at about 403 using max ACC gear, max Polearm merits, and Hasso. Guess I'll never cap out on these, but I'll get close.

Here is some gear to add a little more ACC:

Main: Engetsuto - DMG85 DLY480 ACC+2 TP+1%
Sub: Mythril Grip+1 - STR+2 ACC+2
Ammo: Tiphia Sting - ACC+2 ATK+2
Earring 1: Minuet Earring - STR+1 DEX+1
Earring 2: Fowling Earrring - STR+1 ACC+3
Hands: Hanzo Tekko - ACC+6 EVA+6 (Hachiman Kote needed for 5-Hit TP build)
Legs: Royal Knight's Breeches - STR+2 DEX+2 ATK+3 (Shinimusha Haidate helpful for 5-Hit TP build)

(Peacock Charm, Haubergeon+1, and Sniper's Ring+1 x 2 would be ridiculous to consider, but they could get me to 415 ACC.)

[tdh]

Re: Overwhelm Question

Now if I had Polearm merits, this might be worth it, but considering Polearm Merits don't help me elsewhere and I have multiple melee Lv.75 jobs - none being DRG - I just can't justify that.

Even looking at what would be required to hit the cap with out food, you end up giving up Store TP or Haste items. Which is why Polearm will be a farming toy, or relegated to WS Quest points, and I'll stick with my Great Katana for all serious business.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Re: Overwhelm Question

GK is definitely the best route for most SAM. That is why you see so many buy an Engetsuto and sell it back later. It only works for me because I use it to duo/trio against Lv76-79 enemies where I can sacrifice some ACC gear for the Store TP required to get a 5-Hit TP build. Some day I'd like to get geared for taking down Lv81-82 Greater Colibri in a trio.

Another benefit of Penta Thrust is that it checks twice for double attack, which would make a 17% Double Attack build really attractive instead of a Haste build.

I'll try to find you in-game though when I'm on this weekend, and perhaps we can try to figure out the approx. maximum angle for Overwhelm or get a better feel for it if you are interested.

Server - Lakshmi
Ryoii - Lv75 SAM/WAR
Nonomii - Lv75 RDM/WHM