Samurai useless after lvl 60+, final!?

[Kiyosuki]

People assume that Samurai are useless after 60 just because one of they're most used Job Abilities becomes subable. But these guys don't consider the fact that Samurai WS's are really nice. They're extremely flexible to create all sorts of powerful Renkei. Samurai truly dance the waltz around the Skill Chain charts moreso than any other.

As a Ninja I love working with Samurai, they're one of my favorite partners. Since Blink tank parties like speed to really take advantage of the blink tank, engineering your party to bust out Renkei as fast as possible is very beneficial.

[Arkadya]

So what exactly does "Enhances Third Eye" mean anyway? You anticipate 2 hits? 30 second reuse instead of 1 minute? Makes the little light burst bigger?

[Izerezek]

A high level LS-mate gave me a great analogy for explaining a Sam role at 60+. He says to imagine a buffet with any food you could ever want spread out before you. That is how skill chains work with sams; everything is open to you. Now picture a pantry with three or four items like a can of soup, a can of corn, etc. That is the skill chain situation without a sam; it's not hopeless, but you have much less variety.

Since this high-level LS bud is a blm, he makes it a point to try and group with sams cause he likes the buffet option.

[Sakabato]

Replying to the above post: Yes, you may have more variety for skillchains, but at levels 65+, you don't need variety. All you need is level 3 skillchains. Light or darkness. Can burst with 4 elements each for massive damage. SAMs bounce around the chart, but they have nothing solid to offer.

Here is the problem I see with samurai from levels 65-71, before Tachi: Kasha. Most parties a SAM gets into is gonna have a DRK. There's really no good skillchains a SAM can do with a DRK or any other melee, for that matter, at that level. Sure, you have Tachi: Gekko that can end darkness, but why would a party get you to end it when a DRK can end it for triple the damage? At those levels, all you really want to do is level 3 skillchains for massive damage for chain 5s on ITs. Samurai skillchains are weak at those levels. Only good skillchain a SAM can do with a DRK is gekko > guillotine for induration. That's weak, cuz a drk can just do swiftblade > cross reaper = darkness for much more damage. So, most of the time the SAM just goes solo ws while the DRK and PLD do the skillchains. I mean, it works and you will still get chain 5s probably but thats only because of the DRK. It seems to me that SAMs have no place in skillchains at those levels. RNGs can chain with a DRK with spinning slash or MNK or THF for light for massive damage. Even DRGs can chain with DRK, MNK, and THF for light renkei. While SAMs are reduced to weak skillchains. Sure, they can do 2 skillchains per battle, but probably not every battle since meditate is on a 3min timer. When a party leader makes a party, he/she has to know exaxtly what skillchain they are going to be doing and pick the jobs accordingly. A SAM just doesn't fit anywhere good on the skillchain chart from levels 65-71. Every other combo of melee you automatically know its going to be light, especially when fighting bones. Throw in a SAM and you gotta start looking at the skillchain chart to figure something out. Even when you don't fight bones and wanna do darkness renkei, ending it with a SAM is weak when a DRK can do it. You don't have to do level 3 skillchains, you can always do induration, distortion, fragmentation, or anything else. But, in my opinion at those levels, you need to do level 3 skillchains if you wanna chain 5 consistently on ITs and you need to end it with a DRK or MNK or THF. Tachi: Kasha is truly the saving grace for SAMs because after that, they can do light with DRK, MNK, and THF for really good parties. Having to rely on PLD for skillchains is not ideal. So, the way I see it, 65-71 are gonna be grueling levels for SAMs.

[replica]

Originally posted by Sakabato
Sure, you have Tachi: Gekko that can end darkness, but why would a party get you to end it when a DRK can end it for triple the damage?

I really wish you knew what you were talking about, before you wasted however much time making this post.

Firstly, I just got out of a 6k per hour PT as sam/thf.. No level 3's, but never missed a chain 5 and didn't really have downtime at all. The problem for sams 65-71 is uneducated people like you, that THINK lv3 light is the holy grail vs everything. Have fun taking that drg to a bone PT rofl.. Even the loved tank, drk, mnk set up is forced to do a 3 part renkei for light (where as at 71 sam can do a 2 part with either, starting or finishing.. and the tank can WS to hold hate i.e. spirits etc. or even do a SECOND lv3 light with sam if the tank is pld)

Also, I really don't think any drk's spin is gonna do triple the damage (or double or even near double) of a 7-900 gekko (with sneak/trick, just like the drks need)

I agree it is a bit silly that we're the only damage dealer that can't finish lv3 light pre-71, but meh.. We're severely underrated without kasha, that's all. Still capable of being good in any PT imo.

[Skill]

Please don't flame me for this in advance.

First of all I like this thread. At first I was like...no...please...not again. But the discussions it brought up are...interesting.

Now the question that often pops into my head when reading through posts like this, is something like: "Are we missing Square's point here?"

Something like how Ninja's where never ment to tank ( Still in my opinion.), it seems that Samurai where ment to tank even at higher levels ( *points at AF armor as an example) so why doesn't it work? All the japanese parties I have been in so far stuff me into the tanking position when there is no Pld or Nin already in the pt. (Note: This is begin lvl 30, so take that in account.) It seems to work fine, but I'm pretty sure you are all right about the fact that at higher levels Sam's can't tank. (past lvl 50 or so.)

Sam's can be great damage dealers I believe, and ofcourse they remain the portal to the insane damage you can get from magic bursts, but something keeps creeping me out about some other purpose Square might have intended with Sam.

Might be cool to hear your thoughts about it from your own experience.

[Nodachi]

Originally posted by Skill
Please don't flame me for this in advance.

First of all I like this thread. At first I was like...no...please...not again. But the discussions it brought up are...interesting.

Now the question that often pops into my head when reading through posts like this, is something like: "Are we missing Square's point here?"

Something like how Ninja's where never ment to tank ( Still in my opinion.), it seems that Samurai where ment to tank even at higher levels ( *points at AF armor as an example) so why doesn't it work? All the japanese parties I have been in so far stuff me into the tanking position when there is no Pld or Nin already in the pt. (Note: This is begin lvl 30, so take that in account.) It seems to work fine, but I'm pretty sure you are all right about the fact that at higher levels Sam's can't tank. (past lvl 50 or so.)

Sam's can be great damage dealers I believe, and ofcourse they remain the portal to the insane damage you can get from magic bursts, but something keeps creeping me out about some other purpose Square might have intended with Sam.

Might be cool to hear your thoughts about it from your own experience.

It's true sam do serve as decent tanks up to almost the mid 50s, though it really depends on your mages and the type of mob you are fighting. But they are almost like hybrid warriors in this stage and seem to be able to hold hate well with both frequent taunts and weapon skills. Post 50s though if you're tanking as a sam somthing is wrong, really wrong.

And though i would like to think we're missing 'square's point' with sam, i think it's more of the case square isn't quite aware of sam's situation. Same should be said for dragoon, even more so. But the sad fact is sam is very playable but compared back to back with other end game melee, it gets shadowed by numerous job abilities or spells other's have. Sam need some basic things to get them back up to par with say dark, be able to wear 'thick' armor or give them new armor all together. And give them more job abilities. I really don't have much of a complaint with our WS damage, i just don't expect to out-do other melee with a single WS.

[Sakabato]

Originally posted by replica
I really wish you knew what you were talking about, before you wasted however much time making this post.

Firstly, I just got out of a 6k per hour PT as sam/thf.. No level 3's, but never missed a chain 5 and didn't really have downtime at all. The problem for sams 65-71 is uneducated people like you, that THINK lv3 light is the holy grail vs everything. Have fun taking that drg to a bone PT rofl.. Even the loved tank, drk, mnk set up is forced to do a 3 part renkei for light (where as at 71 sam can do a 2 part with either, starting or finishing.. and the tank can WS to hold hate i.e. spirits etc. or even do a SECOND lv3 light with sam if the tank is pld)

Also, I really don't think any drk's spin is gonna do triple the damage (or double or even near double) of a 7-900 gekko (with sneak/trick, just like the drks need)

I agree it is a bit silly that we're the only damage dealer that can't finish lv3 light pre-71, but meh.. We're severely underrated without kasha, that's all. Still capable of being good in any PT imo.

Well, I wasn't really considering SAM/THF since SAM/WAR is what 90% of all SAMs are for life. And if you are a SAM/WAR, your gekko is gonna average 300 dmg at around 100 tp. Thats average, you can hit 400 or 500 or maybe even 800 if double attack kicks in. But, I don't think its ideal for a SAM/WAR to end darkness. I don't think its ideal for SAMs to end skillchains most of the time. Anyways, I wasn't saying SAMs are useless from levels 65-71 or that light or darkness is the holy grail of skillchains at those levels. You can have very good parties with SAMs and get chain 5s all the time at those levels without level 3s. I was just pointing out that with a DRK and RNG combo, or RNG and MNK combo, or MNK and DRG combo, or RNG and THF, or DRG and THF, or DRK and DRG combo ( not fighting bones when you have a DRG...like fighting procs, darters, tormentors etc. ), all those combos are simple and work well. I am a SAM myself so this is all coming from experience. Heh, believe it or not, I think not having a SAM at these levels in a party is simpler and sometimes smoother xping. Honestly, 2 skillchains a battle is not needed when 1 can kill the mob. So, you really don't need a SAM. I'm not ranting or complaining or discouraging any SAMs out there, I'm just pointing out that I've had sucky parties, and I've had excellent parties. But, I've just not had many parties at these levels period. I dunno, maybe thats just all melees without a static. ><

I have played SAM/THF and unless you have 200+ tp charged all the time, gekko is not gonna do 900. More like 500-700 usually.

[poppipo]

Its really weird cus all the samurais iv partyd with have all been very unoobish and always had the best equipment and did alot of dmg.