RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

If you think RDM/BLU takes less damage than a reasonably well-geared PLD/NIN on pretty much... well... anything worthwhile... then you're sadly, sadly mistaken. Shield damage mitigation is much better than DEF damage mitigation against enemies that are higher level than you, since it's % based and not affected by comparative level.

This wasn't claimed at all, this was a topic on blood tanking, I also just said in the previous post.....

So what you saying BBQ, that a PLD can take more hits than a RDM, or are you comparing it to PLD/NIN which everyone already knows is king shit....

I am not disputing the fact that a PLD will more likely than not take less damage, but the amount that it will take is not a considerable amount more than a RDM will take, heck in the end we will be talking about a couple 10's in damage as for not being able to get that much def.

Naked Taru RDM
Def: 135
-PDT Gear
Shashmir +1 -9% (+8 Vit/+4DEF
Genbu -10% (24DEF)
ASA pants -4% (31DEF)
Umbra Cape -6/-12%(6DEF)
Jelly Ring -5%
Dark Ring Augmented -6%
Darksteel +1 body -4% (40 DEF)
Darksteel +1 hands -2% (15 DEF)

total -pdt 46% (-52%@night)

DEF Gear
Brisk Mask (26DEF
Rager Ledlsens (22DEF)
Fort Torque (2DEF)

Total DEF = 170 + 135 = 305

With Prora 5 + merits= 375
379*1.5 = 562 DEF with Cocoon.
With Taco = 553*1.25 = 702 DEF

702DEF with -46/-52% PDT


So I lied you always wont have -50% forgive me.

As for getting casts off.
-spellinterupt set
Warlock Tab +1 = 12%
Magnetic Earring = 8%
Karasatjgfajhf (from AH feet) = 15%
Solitare Cape = 8%
Nash Turban =10%
Willpower Torque = 5%
Druids Rope = 10%
Hermit Wand = 25%
Muse = 10%
+ 8% merits = 111% -interupt > -102% required to cap

there for you can recast stoneskin as often as you damn well please without getting interuppted.

702DEF
-46% PDT/-52% PDT
-111% interrupt

The only issue comes with out ACC on our weapon, at which point it is required to have a march or hunters roll. A march + a ballad III would give us about a 70% ACC rate, along with 11 MP/tic refresh. Add a SMN to that mix or a COR and you are looking at sustainable refresh with solid ACC, with Very solid Defenses. Of course about 30 minutes in the FFXICOPEDIA gear index could of told you all that, but no no no works too.

---------- Post added at 06:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------

PLDs are usually kitted out with lots of -damage% gear, a good shield or an earth staff (more likely to be shield + sword these days than in the past), and will usually bring /NIN to the table for extra damage avoidance unless an enemy hits too fast for it to be worthwhile (i.e. Faust).

I lol'd

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgi05cm59fE]YouTube - Xenith vs Faust[/ame]

If a PLD goes /NIN for that fight, thenthey are and idiot

---------- Post added at 06:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 PM ----------

oh and yes that was RDM/BLU solo, not by me but by a very good RDM/BLU soloist. Wonder where all the PLD solo's are at, with all their leet damage mitigaton skills.

---------- Post added at 06:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

Oh and i just wanted to mention one more thing, there are currently about 11 NM's (not includng new abyssea NM's cuz there is no hard data on them) that are of higher level, 3 of which can be solo'd by a rdm (suzy,seiryu,genbu) 1 of which doesn't even need to be tanked (byakko), 1 doesn't even have time to be tanked (kirin)

leaving Vrtra, Jorrmy, Nidhogg, Faffy and Dark Ixion.

[Raydeus]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

The thing about RDM tanking is if you want to kill a decent RDM you have to kill him/her in 1-2 attack rounds or be able to interrupt him/her consistently.

If you can't do that then it will take quite some time to take him/her down.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

Exactly and outside of being one shot, a properly geared and played RDM/BLU will survive just as long as a properly played PLD be it /WAR /RDM or /NIN. While RDM/BLU will require more support than a PLD/NIN at the end of the day the mob will be dead, the RDM will be alive, and loot will probably not drop.

Oh and in B4 the it takes X amount of time to cast Stoneskin in that time you wont be wearing defense gear.....

Slow II with Sabateur and Elegy = 100% slow, which is anywhere from 6-10 second delay on mobs. It takes a RDM with natural fast cast 6-7 seconds or so to cast stoneskin, in that time you may get hit once. Maybe. At which point you happily cure yourself and enjoy your fresh stone skin for another 18-30 seconds at which point you just refresh it again at the 15 second mark, using the ol predrop SS buff trick (in fast cast gear).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

Am I living in an alternate universe where RDM tanking can still be done with Sleep I/II, Bind, Blind and Dispel? Is this the universe where SE didn't nerf the enmity gain on those spells?

If I'm in that universe, let me know so that we can actually have a discussion about viable RDM tanking during end-game environments.

No, you're just living in a world where other RDMs are still overreacting to the enmity nerf of a previous update. You know, the RDMs that think its their goddess-given right to be a better tank than a PLD.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

HNM and other endgame activities that actually need tanking, on the other hand, needs someone who can (a) hold the enemy's attention (b) stay alive and. Towards that end, endgame PLDs are usually kitted out with lots of -damage% gear, a good shield or an earth staff (more likely to be shield + sword these days than in the past), and will usually bring /NIN to the table for extra damage avoidance unless an enemy hits too fast for it to be worthwhile (i.e. Faust).


Icemage

Also, a good chunk of melee have no qualms about meditating for some insane spike damage, dying, raising, and meditating again. Weakness doesn't lessen damage done if the melees already have the TP via meditate, and it gives the tanks time to build hate.

Therefore, flinging around epeens in regards to doing more damage than the tank can hold off goes out the window as long as the melee understands that if they keep doing that, they'll die; a lot.

@MrMageo
I'll start by saying that I acknowledge that you NEVER said RDM/BLU would replace PLD tanking, nor was it some awesome super "I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Butter" idea. I merely allude to the ways that PLDs tank - and tank effectively - to highlight why I disagree with your post. RDM/BLU can be, as you said, a "backdoor" or a choice for "fun" in the event of a "night without PLD". My main disagreement is not in your idea, it's that you miss out on some of the most important aspects of tanking; namely Damage Mitigation and Enmity gain; aspects that I think RDM/BLU falls short in.

As a lvl 80 PLD, I'll say that I officially hate subbing WAR if I need to tank ANYTHING. Now that I have native Phalanx, I'd only need to sub RDM for the MDef, and that's only situational (ACP, for instance, but I did my ACP fight pre-nerf).

No one Blood Tanks anything major for a reason; it's dumb.

Gets hit bunches
Hemorrhages MP

He may have been Matter-Of-Fact, but he's right in that regard.

Sure the CE/VE gain of those spells you mention are 320/320 (with the exception of MP Drainkiss which is 320 CE 0 VE), but Cocoon, Phalanx, Genbu Shield, Jelly Ring, Umbra Cape and even the Magian Sword + some Defense% gear won't help the RDM achieve Tanking Nirvana for a number of reasons;

PLDs use /NIN not to Avoid ALL damage, but to take LESS damage.
A PLD/NIN still gets hit, but PLDs have insane Shield Skill.
Damage mitigating JAs.
Much more enmity gear than a RDM could hope for.
Atonement

You can't really compare a consistent Atonement spam of 750 damage to Sanguine Blade, especially when as a RDM/BLU tank you'll be more focused with staying alive and casting Over 9000 spells and buffs.

PLD/NIN essentially builds up Enmity through Atonement spam and Hasted Flash while avoiding massing Enmity loss through the use of Hasted Shadows. Even if you look at the best NINs during the days when NINs tanked, they used Haste Builds for Utsusemi, melee builds while shadows were up, Enmity builds for Enfeebles, and Damage% builds for when Utsu was down. Anyone who tanked as an "Evasion Ninja" was either dead or couldn't build up even enough CE. It's how NIN/DRK Stun tanked and so forth.

RDM/NIN USED to have a similar concept, but was able to reach the CE cap much faster (against the right mobs, such as JoL for example).

You mention getting more defense than PLD via equipment and spells, but I can tell you right now that the trade-off is not that simple, mainly because even if you can claim that you get hit for less damage than a well-geared PLD (which is a STRETCH), a well-geared PLD will be getting hit less often. While you weren't comparing the two, I'm just stating this IMPORTANT aspect of successful tanking.

You also mention Stinking Gas, Geist Wall and Jettuara, which are 44, 46 and 48 respectively, meaning that the current RDM/BLU scene has no access to them.

I will refer to this page from Kanican which highlights the CE loss per 1 HP based on your max HP to indicate that with a HP of 1000 (which is easily obtainable, even by a Taru RDM at 85), you'd lose 1.8 CE for every 1 damage, so you'd be in a constant state of casting spells to account for the damage you're taking, in addition to Aquaveil and Stoneskin wearing.

As a Buff/Debuff Cycle, keep this in mind:
With Composure Refresh II you'd get a net of 900MP over the course of 450 seconds at a cost of 60MP. Phalanx (21 ), Enspell (12), Haste (40) are the "Permanent Buffs". Stoneskin (29) and Aquaveil are "Temporary Buffs" because they fall when they're exceeded. Regen II will last you about 3 minutes, so you'll have to cast it twice to have it equal the Permanent Buffs (36*2=72)

Then you will have to cast AT LEAST ONCE: Slow II (45), Paralyze II (36), Bio III (54), Sheepsong (22), Sopoforic (38), Blank Gaze (25), and MP Drainkiss (20)

Gain of 900MP over 450 Seconds
Loss of about 486 MP in ONE cycle.
The 4 /BLU spells account for 105 MP out of that total, and will net 1280CE
Variable loss of MP based on Cures and recasting Stoneskin and Aquaveil at your discretion

At 1000HP, to lose 1280 CE requires taking about 712 points of damage.

In case you haven't noticed, even with all our Fast Cast abilities, castings spells takes a long time, especially the more spells needed to be cast. RDM/BLU tanking will be in a perpetual cycle of casting, won't have time to melee.

Essentially, you're saying that in light of the constant CE gain of Dispel, Sleep I/II, Bind and Blind coupled with the Damage Avoidance of Utsusemi and the BACKUP DAMAGE MITIGATION of our plethora of spells, our fall-back is:

Relying on Stoneskin, which has insanely long casting time.
Relying on Cocoon, which is laughable because Defense past level 60 is - for the most part - pointless.
Keeping up with our Buff Cycle via Composure's duration time bonus
Deactivating Composure after Buff cycle due to recast time penalty
Using /BLU spells for CE gain
Trying to gain more enmity than we lose.

RDM/BLU might be effective on Charby and a handful of other low-manned situations, but in no way does it hold a flickering candle to RDM/NIN.

I probably missed something, but that's the general gist of why I disagree with your views as RDM/BLU being anything more than gimmicky and highly situational.

Also, it looks like there were about 5 posts since I started typing mine, so I'll probably end up fixing my own numbers >_>

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

No, you're just living in a world where other RDMs are still overreacting to the enmity nerf of a previous update. You know, the RDMs that think its their goddess-given right to be a better tank than a PLD.

Better where has it been said its better? can you quote that for me?. I was all for the tanking nerf, I didn't think it was right that RDM was the best tank in the game, and im glad they got rid of that, all this is, is an alternative to crying about not having a PLD so we can't do xxx.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

The thing about RDM tanking is if you want to kill a decent RDM you have to kill him/her in 1-2 attack rounds or be able to interrupt him/her consistently.

If you can't do that then it will take quite some time to take him/her down.

There are other ways; Minhocao and its Extreme Purgation (AoE status effect drain--including all your buffs) comes to mind. (Hint: you want minimal buffs for this fight--and you want tanks who can survive for a bit of time without any buffs when Extreme Purgation goes off.)

And, for the would be solo'ers, good luck handling a 2500 damage Disgorge.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

Ok I see that there have been somethings about RDM TANKING that are actually RDM SOLO. Not the same thing, people.

For a RDM to TANK, it needs to generate Enmity, which we cannot do. Please change the title of the thread. For great Justice.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

@ Wish le sigh, I didn't say it was better than PLD/NIN or RDM/NIN i said it is an alternative to not having those around. Read the last 2 lines of my initial post for crying out loud.

I have not once said anything to the contrary.

The only reason the whole DEF thing was brought up was to dispute BBQ's claim that RDM is squishy, or maybe he was comparing it to PLD/NIN in which case its a moot point. He still has not clarified what his comparison was to, when he claimed a RDM/BLU could only tank things that tickle PLDs. To me that sounds like a Blood tank, in which case a RDM can offer up the same defense as a PLD.

The Solo Vid is displaying not taking hardly any damage, on what Icemage considered a fight where a PLD would not /NIN it is simply an example of how a PDT set and defense set can reduce damage to a similar lvl as a PLD/WAR.

As for the enmity concept and a conceptual tank, it is no different than when RDM/NIN tanked people will either have to hold off going ape shit for about 3 minutes or they will die. That didn't suddenly change over night. The only difference is, is that instead of never getting hit, we may get a few times a minute due to SS casts falling out of Sync with slowed enemies. Otherwise after the initial spam of spells i will be the same crap as before, where you keep your defenses up. (in this case SS) while healing others and using VE spells to keep it high.

SS is rarely going to fall before the recast is up, against a properly slowed mob. The amount of damage we take is not so astronomical as to drop our SS in a single shot. In the event of crits, than possibly, but that is what our gear is for and phalanx is for, and the emergency use of a -interupt set. -PDT set basically doubles the life of SS, and the DEF provides a much decreased pDIF, especially considering the mobs we will now be facing are more or less of equal level to us with slightly higher stats.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

For a RDM to TANK, it needs to generate Enmity, which we cannot do.

Unfortunately, this is very true, and probably the TL;DR of the entire thread. Even without Utsusemi, it is theoretically possible to shift between Aquaveil and Stoneskin until kingdom come, but unless you're trying to bore the mob to death (i.e. solo), odds are it's just going to give up with you and move on to some bigger threat that they can eat alive.

Doesn't help at all that the new best Stoneskin piece in the game has Enmity-7 on it. Which is really pointless, except to drive the point home that S-E absolutely hates any RDM or /RDM that ever dares to try and tank again. Or basically anybody who isn't a PLD/NIN, PLD/WAR, PLD/DNC, or a DNC/LOL.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

As for the enmity concept and a conceptual tank, it is no different than when RDM/NIN tanked people will either have to hold off going ape shit for about 3 minutes or they will die.

Three minutes? When your LS is stupid and never bring SAM/THF's, maybe.

Yeah, the best enmity generator for any tank is a SAM/THF partner. There, I said it. (Heck, with a handful of SAM/THFs, even a RDM/NIN can still 'tank'--and why not? RDM/NIN's survival tool set has only improved with the change to Aquaveil.)

[Icemage]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

^ What the heck are you fighting that's worth bothering with that's not going to smack the bejesus out of you and interrupt your Stoneskin casting? Fast Cast is useful, yes, but Stoneskin still has an abysmally long casting window even with maxed Fast Cast. Maaaaaybe if you can get Slow II to stick and have a Bard land Carnage Elegy on something not too ridiculous you can get away with it. Also known as : Don't try this on Byakko unless you want to see how fast a RDM can die.


Icemage

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

Also looking over your numbers, Why do I have to cast slow II Para II and Bio III, why does RDM/BLU have to haste themselves? PLD's get the luxury of having others cast these buffs/debuffs for them, why should RDM/BLU have to be the one responsible for casting them as well. The only ones RDM would be required to cast would be Enspell 2 (for the CE 24MP) Phalanx (21MP) and Refresh II (which can also be provided from an outside source.) Meaning I only need to really worry about 45-105 MP every 7.5-9 minutes. Regen II or III can be cast as needed from an outside source. Leaving me with just the BLU spells to soak my MP into as well as self cures.

Why must it always come down to RDM has to do XXX,YYY,ZZZ,AAA,BBB,CCC,JJJ,KKK,LLL when ever something comes up that puts them into a position where jobs that are normally in that position don't do these things. Why? out of curiosity is a RDM expected to do all that stuff if it moves to a melee role, or a tanking role, and out of a healer/dd/enfeebler role?

Is it to much to ask that RDM/BLU get the same support that a PLD might get when he/she is tanking. Your numbers are sound, but they are designed to set up failure. Just like laughing at a RDM who melee who you expect to carry buff cycles out the ass, enfeeble and sleep mobs, and then saying his damage output isn't worthwhile when you expect him to carry the load first.

Give me a break.

Again, With Slow II+Elegy a mob will attack @ about 6-10 seconds (depending on the mob type/delay). This means the RDM/BLU can cast 2 BLU spells every swing, and when/if the RDM/BLU get hit after 2-3 rounds (6 BLU hate spells) they will lose maybe at most 360 CE, if they get hit. If they watch the SS timer, and the mob attack rate they can keep SS up near indefinitely, without the aid of aquaveil (which is not required, due to being able to get a -111% interupt set when only -102% is needed).

---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

^ What the heck are you fighting that's worth bothering with that's not going to smack the bejesus out of you and interrupt your Stoneskin casting? Fast Cast is useful, yes, but Stoneskin still has an abysmally long casting window even with maxed Fast Cast. Maaaaaybe if you can get Slow II to stick and have a Bard land Carnage Elegy on something not too ridiculous you can get away with it. Also known as : Don't try this on Byakko unless you want to see how fast a RDM can die.

Guess you have never heard of being uninterupptable its ok most people haven't, it takes -102% spell interrupt gear to get it, RDM can equip -111%, meaning a mob can hit us all day long, and a RDM can cast any spell he wants without getting stopped. So ya, moot point is moot. (read my post at the top of the page). Also who tanks byakko anymore, is this 2005 again, jeez..... Burn with mages or melee and be over with it.

Three minutes? When your LS is stupid and never bring SAM/THF's, maybe.

Yeah, the best enmity generator for any tank is a SAM/THF partner. There, I said it. (Heck, with a handful of SAM/THFs, even a RDM/NIN can still 'tank'--and why not? RDM/NIN's survival tool set has only improved with the change to Aquaveil.)

that works too, but I don't think some of the people in this thread are ready for that.

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

While not a bad thing to post, I'll just say that this really isn't terribly viable.

If I can pull hate easily from a Pld while trying not to pull hate, I really don't want a funky Rdm tank that is dealing with so many variables. Reading about this, it just reads like it will act like a subpar wannabe Ninja tank it terms of hate holding.

Frankly I think you'd be better to do something like Rdm/Nin and just have people TA onto you.... Blu/Thf IMO would shine here. CA or Efflux + Quadratic Continuum easily hits 1400+, pair that with TA and you ought to be good.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM/BLU tanking, the new RDM tank bleeds blood

If you are pulling hate than that is your own issue, regardless of if you are trying to or not. Besdies if the tank has any sort of hate on the mob you will get smacked once or twice the tank will heal you up and it will be back on him. Im not disputing the fact of pulling hate, heck Ive MB'd with Water 4 on an abyssea NM recently and pulled hate, it happens sometimes, but a good tank be it a RDM/NIN, a PLD/whatever, or a in this case a RDM/BLU should be on the ball enough to heal you to gain more CE, and yes THF or /THF are a nice thing to help out, its just another outside tool that you should assume is there at some point, kind of like someone else giving you buffs and supplying debuffs.