Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

[ItazuraNhomango]

Well, I think I know the theory: look up Kaeko's chart, compare enmity/recast/MP and pick the spells (Dispel, Sleep I/II; Blind, Bind, Poison) for VE and CE. Concentrate on CE at the start, switch to VE after a while.

And, I think I know what gears I should strive for: more enmity gear (only sword, Harmonia, and Sattva so far), and an actual damage reduction set beyond Genbu. Plus remembering to bring Dusk hands/feet may be good, too--Nashira body, Walahra, and Swift by themselves were a bit skimpy on Haste.)

In practice? RDM/NIN tanking was utterly bizarre.

Was co-tanking with a very experienced PLD/NIN on Dextrose, and the result was ... odd. Sometimes one of us would be main tank for no noticeable reasons while Dextrose hardly face the other. Sometimes we can bounce the critter. Always, the BLU and the DRK would just rip it from us at the end.

After some initial adjustments to use more VE spells on my part, I don't think either one of us did anything drastically different fight to fight, yet each fight (and different portion of each fight) was pretty different in terms of comparative tanking performance.

Normally, I can get a good feel for the enmity levels when I tank on PLD. (Heck, I was able to do that easily on SAM/NIN in exp parties.) But when it comes to this RDM/NIN tanking business, I found out I have almost no enmity sense, except for that time when Dextrose dropped me below 100 HP--knew I lost a bunch of CE there!

Don't think I'm too terribly off on the conceptual stuff; on pop #3 and #4, when it was between ~85% to ~30% HP, I noticed that most of time when it faced the PLD and the PLD got hit--even just for ~50 HP--the critter would usually turn to me. That should mean we had roughly equal TE for the most part.

However, when it faced me and got through Utsusemi and Stoneskin, half of the times it went back to bouncing, and half of the times it stayed on the PLD (until the PLD get hit). What really disturbed me was that I couldn't predict which behavior it would choose by looking at the amount of damage I took or any other indicator I could think of.

Guess what I am asking is the veteran RDM/NIN tanks' tricks and tips on gauging enmity, and how to change up the spell mix in response. (I really don't know how I do it on PLD, either, but whatever it is my subconscious is doing, it's working well enough most of the time--on PLD.)

(As for the BLU and DRK, my guess is that since I was under geared for enmity and damage reduction, it meant that I couldn't cap (or even get near cap for) CE/VE, so when they start going crazy at the end of fights, they'd end up with Dextrose's (un)loving attention. Not too concerned about that, to be honest...)

[Callisto]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

First off I'd like to point out that newer NMs(ZNM and forward) many, many times have wonky hate. For example, Chigre appears to have no CE whatsoever and decays VE extremely rapidly, pretty much the last person who took an action in hate range will have hate.

Secondly, it honestly sounds like things went well, because the times that I used RDM before the massive amounts of CE would have me dominating hate over PLDs or NINs eventually(not in a good way, the point of a co-tank is to share the workload).

As far as spell mix, basically I tend to rotate Sleep > Sleep II > Dispel > repeat early on in the fight. As you know these spells build equal CE and VE at the same time. Once your CE is high(usually about 15-20 total casts), that's when I begin sticking almost entirely to Blind for VE upkeep, with an occasional Sleep II(usually after 3-4 Blinds). If I take a chunk of damage I go back to my CE spell rotation. Some RDMs use Bind along with Blind for their VE spells, I personally do not, depending on the mob there may be a time when I actually will need to kite and want to toss a Bind out to actually Bind it, and I don't want my timer to be down.

The thing to remember is unless your co-tank is also a RDM or an Atonement PLD, you are almost always going to be leading in CE. The mob's behavior will be based more on what your co-tank does than you. If they Flash/Stun, they're going to yank it because Blind, while serviceable, is just not that big of a VE tool comparatively. Once they lose shadows though, it's going to be coming straight back to you, and even if you take damage it's not going to be long before you have CE back with the Sleep/Dispel rotation.

Edit: Lastly, a buffed DD going all-out is always, always going to pull hate. The only exceptions being mobs with large damage reductions to where the DD isn't actually doing all that much damage. That's their responsibility to know when to hold back, that's part of the team dynamic.

[ShepardG]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

Here's my "Precast" stuff I use, which is focused mainly on re-cast, Not for certain but supposedly the Goliard Saio when stacked with the other haste pieces, lowers your re-cast time by a couple more seconds than Duelist Tabby.

Precast:
hands "Dusk Gloves";
ranged "Lamian Kaman +1";
main "Macuahuitl +1";
sub "Genbu's Shield";
head "Warlock's Chapeau";
neck "Enfeebling Torque";
ear1 "Loquac. Earring";
ear2 "Celestial Earring";
ring1 "Aqua Ring";
ring2 "Aqua Ring";
back "Altruistic Cape";
waist "Velocious Belt";
legs "Nashira Seraweels";
feet "Dusk Ledelsens +1";
body "Goliard Saio";

mid way into the spell i swap in potency either Enhancing+ MND for self buffs, healing skill + MND for cures, and Emnity for the spells that you spam.

-If your tanking on a HNM i recomend an Idle set, consisting of -physical dmg + Refresh
-Use a macro to swap into your -magical dmg set when you see a spell or a "Readies" ability.
-Fire resist set for Tiamat/Cerb (don't worry to much about any other elements your -magic dmg/+MDB set is usually sufficent)

Here's my "MidCast" Emnity set:
main "Macuahuitl +1";
sub "Genbu's Shield";
ranged "Lamian Kaman +1";
head "Warlock's Chapeau";
neck "Harmonia's Torque";
ear1 "Hades Earring +1";
ear2 "Eris' Earring +1";
body "Dalmatica";
ring1 "Mermaid Ring";
hands "Storm Manopolas";
ring2 "Aqua Ring";
back "Cerberus Mantle";
waist "Trance Belt";
legs "Nashira Seraweels";
feet "Heroic Boots";

Those are a bit extreme, i will admit, storm manoples, heroic boots, etc. Those aren't necessary i just included them as that's the max emnity (-some HQ stuff) a RDM can wear @ Cast. +25 Emnity is pretty boss, and can speed up fights alot when the DD's can go all out sooner.

After cast is like i said, -physical dmg + Refresh. So D.hat + Morrigan/Dalmatica then gear for -physical dmg, (Genbu's, jelly ring, Cheviot's)

-After that, ACC, then Haste

RDM's can take some pretty ridiculus Magic Damage, and shrug it off like a stonega from a maze maker. Anyways probably more info than you were looking for, but pick it apart to suit your play style ^^ I might sac 4 enmity for a joy toy, and attempt to spam Death Blossom as the dmg from that would probably make up the 4 enmity lost from the macuhati +1

anywho, let me know if you have anymore questions

As for "the feel" it still feels awkward to me, being on the verge of getting pwned any minute. If you and your Co-Tank are bouncing hate, then your doing fine ^^ Did you guys kill the mob? if so, you win ^^ good job RDM tank

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

Dextrose's enmity behavior is pretty normal, except it always retaliates against the WS user with Amorphic Spikes.

We won 4/4, but it wasn't bouncing most of the time. It only 'bounced' significantly in fight #3 and #4, and only after it hit the PLD would the 'bouncing' start; I'd say about 70% of time, it was staying on either the PLD or myself, with more than half of the 'glued' time on the PLD. When it hit me, sometimes the bouncing stopped, sometimes continued.

Those were eyeball observations, though, and my memory is notoriously leaky. /shrug At any rate, I'm sure I have room for improvement.

I don't use Windower/Spellcast, so pre/mid cast setups won't work for me; Dalmatica, Altruistic, Speed, etc. are pretty much beyond reach for me anyway. (I think I get the concepts, though. Thanks.)

Because of the way BLU and DRK were used, I'm not too terribly concerned. DRK was using Souleater and leaving it on toward the end of each fight (sometimes, a little before that), and BLU was spamming spells at that time as well. (I told them WS'ing was a bad idea, but they just ignored me and eat Amorphic Spikes anyway. lol.)

* * *

And, no, BLUs don't need a ton of buffs to do massive damage in a short period. DRK leaving Souleater on is a tanking headache I've never been able to solve.

[Callisto]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

I still used 'precast' of sorts back when I played on console, there's the trick of using multiple macro books and the '/macro book #' line to loop them for gear swaps. Using console you can't really just do a '/equip head "Warlock's Chapeau' as the first line followed by the spell effectively, unfortunately it usually won't meet the delay require for FC to kick in most times...however, if you have your macros lined up so that a precast gear swap is in the same spot as an utsu/whatever on another book, usually the time that it takes to press the button twice is enough delay without being too much delay that it negates the Fast Cast you're gaining(usually you need about .3s).

i.e.: Book 1 Alt 2: /equip head Wlk Chap
/equip body Dlst. Tab
/macro book 2

Book 2 Alt 2: Utsusemi
/equip aftercast swaps
/macro book 1(or 3 if additional aftercast swaps are needed, then just loop back to 1 from 3).

Sorry if that's a terrible explanation of how to do it, I'm sure you've seen the trick elsewhere and know what I'm talking about though.

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As far as Death Blossom, many times I try to build TP pre-fight to open with it in order to help the debuffers out, but I gave up on trying to actually use it as a tanking tool. Even with strong gear and food either I'll still be missing/hitting for 0, or just casting too often to swing, and DB is crap damage on a high-end mob either way. On top of that, a smart PLD will follow DB with Atonement, to make Light, and while I can't blame them for being opportunistic, the extra damage goes even further to cement hate onto them and off of the RDM.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

lol. I don't think I even engaged Dextrose.

[Callisto]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

Always engage if it's something that you won't be kiting, even if you're using a staff. While they don't happen often on RDM, parries are still nice, and can only happen when you're engaged.

[Seijurohiko]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

You may also consider not engaging on mobs with counter-attack.

[Callisto]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

The number of mobs with Counter that you would actually consider using a RDM tank for are rather small, Tiamat and...Genbu off the top of my head. RDM tank isn't something you use against fodder-mob type of content, they build hate much too slowly compared to a PLD or DD, and the majority of mobs with Counter fall into those categories, Dynamis/Limbus beastmen, etc.

[Seijurohiko]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

Proto-Omega also counters, which RDM can tank decently as well. I didn't mean to imply there are many situations where you'd be tanking mobs with counter-attack, just that it's not worth the 5% parry chance to engage if you do find yourself tanking them on RDM.

It's not like there's all that many more kited fights you'd be tanking on RDM either.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

Well, Dextrose isn't hard enough to worry either way, but on Armed Gears, I'd not want to feed it any TP at all.

On paper, engaging Dextrose with Joyeuse isn't a horribly bad idea, since that may interrupt a few spells. But, it was my first major attempt to tank on RDM, so I wanted fewer distractions. (i.e. I didn't bother with it.) Besides, it can use Amorphic Spikes as a normal TP move as well as a WS counter, so less TP is somewhat of a benefit.

Genbu is easy to kite on PLD, and I have that routine down pat. Don't think I'd bother with RDM for that unless we're even shorter on manpower than usual.

[Armando]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

Proto-Omega also counters, which RDM can tank decently as well. I didn't mean to imply there are many situations where you'd be tanking mobs with counter-attack, just that it's not worth the 5% parry chance to engage if you do find yourself tanking them on RDM.

Can't Proto-Omega be tanked from the side like the CoP one?

[Callisto]

Re: Getting a feel for the RDM/NIN tank's enmity

No, he does turn to face. He also does not have double attack though, and swings rather slow with Slow2/Elegy, most times that I've done it on RDM I ended up spending most of the time only using Ni.