Dual wield question

[Armando]

Re: Dual wield question

Actually the hornet needle / ceremonial dagger would be better for tier 2 enspells wouldn't they?

If you're dual wielding some-other-dagger + Joytoy you have higher attack frequency with Tier I enspells and good melee damage which is better than a single Hornetneedle having fail damage and lower attack frequency but higher numbers on your enspells. Also better TP.

Hornet Needle was considered a very good weapon for RDM for quite a long time, wasn't aware that it suddenly became crap >_>

We used to believe a lot of dumb things when the game was younger. We didn't know any better.

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Dual wield question

Ok thanks AW. I got hung up in terminology.

So basically, when you Dual Wield Blau Dolch/Joyeuse, your Joyeuse will still have its 45% chance to proc it's additional attack, but you can only get the opportunity 22.5% of the time you normally would since you're now Dual Wielding. Got it.

One would initially think, off the surface, that nerfs the ability of JT. But another way to look at it/say it would be, instead of JT getting 45% chance to 2 hit, DW BD+JT now gives you 22.5% chance to 3 hit; which is technically better.

However, I'd like to think it would behoove a RDM to get addtional sources of Haste to even further assist in this situation to kind of get back to the feeling of the 45% TPR (total proc rate). For instance:

If we can equip additional sources of haste on gear (gear that is mostly, seemingly available without major headache) and use the Haste spell, we could obtain:

Wahlara Turban 5%
Nashira Mantell 3%
Dusk Gloves 3%
Tatsumaki S. 3%
Dusk Ledelsens 2%
Swift Belt 4%
---------------------
20% haste from gear

Haste (spell) 15%
-----------------------
35% Spell+gear

Dual Wield II 15%

Suppanomimi 5%
---------------------
55% spell + gear + lower delay

That ends up doing the following:

Blau Dolch 178 Delay + Joyeuse 224 Delay = 402 Delay

402 * 0.45 = 180.9 Delay
180.9 Delay between attack rounds

180.9/2 = 90.45 which the game treats as a 90.45 delay weapon on each attack round

This means that you're chances of hitting 3 times roughly increases 20% more, allowing one to get a 65% proc rate to get 3 hits off of Dual Wielding Blau Dolch + Joytoy, per your example.

I think that's wonderful haha. I personally don't own Nashira Mantell or the Tatsumaki S. yet, but I can get access to them.

Just by these standards, this blows a Hornetneedle out of the water. Hornetneedle is still really good for its level and up to the level you can wear Blau Dolch, but Hornetneedle becomes obsolete after so much time passes.

There's other pieces of gear with haste on it I didn't recognize which could potentially push your haste up marginally and to the 25%haste equipment cap. I don't think a THF can reach this level of haste just by job situation alone. That's kinda stellar.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Dual wield question

AW

. . . I don't see a "W" in "Armando." While the guys on that other forum failed Paladin 201, at least when they tried to abbreviate his name, they used letters that were already in it.

Also, a Red Mage has more reasons to have a Goliard Saio than a Nashira Manteel.

Oh, and,

Just by these standards, this blows a Hornetneedle out of the water.

Hornetneedle is a level 48 weapon. You don't even have to try to "blow it out of the water," you could beat it with a freaking Gold Sword, for crying out loud! (No, Mal, the x1.6 Enspell Frequency doesn't help that much unless, like Armando said, you're Avesta or have a vendetta against Elementals, in which case a Ceremonial Dagger would be more than enough.)

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Dual wield question

. . . I don't see a "W" in "Armando." While the guys on that other forum failed Paladin 201, at least when they tried to abbreviate his name, they used letters that were already in it.

I referred to him as Armando-Warmando in another thread because it sounded like a taru name and the name stuck with me. I was simply being friendly. Lol are you the vocabulary police?

Also, a Red Mage has more reasons to have a Goliard Saio than a Nashira Manteel.

Thank you. I was pulling ideas for items off the top of my head and perfectly made it clear that there was other gear you could involve. You're a treasure

Hornetneedle is a level 48 weapon. You don't even have to try to "blow it out of the water," you could beat it with a freaking Gold Sword, for crying out loud! (No, Mal, the x1.6 Enspell Frequency doesn't help that much unless, like Armando said, you're Avesta or have a vendetta against Elementals, in which case a Ceremonial Dagger would be more than enough.)

I always subscribed to the word-of-mouth fact that Hornetneedle was uberfantastic for the RDM, so I've used it religiously. I actually said that more from my own thinking outloud than anything, because now I've visited a reason to stop using HN and go buy a BD. I never use to be a big believer in DPS being very functional because I always held onto the experience that quick spike damage was the key to success, but my thoughts on the matter have changed as late since I've started getting into the "math" of all this crap.

.-. ._. .-. ._. .-. ._. .-. ._. -rolls-

[Armando]

Re: Dual wield question

Was away for the weekend. Moving on

55% spell + gear + lower delay

Dual Wield has nothing to do with Haste calculations, it's handled separately and independently. What you're really looking at is (1-0.35) * (1-0.20) = 0.52, means an overall reduction of 48%, which is noticeably different from 55%. The total time between attack rounds would be 402 * 0.52 = 209 Delay.

180.9/2 = 90.45 which the game treats as a 90.45 delay weapon on each attack round

No, Haste isn't factored into TP calculations. That's why the distinction between Haste and Dual Wield exists. Dual Wield changes your Delay directly which is what's used for TP calculations. BD + Joyeuse is handled as 321 Delay combined no matter how much Haste you have.

This means that you're chances of hitting 3 times roughly increases 20% more, allowing one to get a 65% proc rate to get 3 hits off of Dual Wielding Blau Dolch + Joytoy, per your example.

You completely lost me here, that part makes no sense. The "3 hit" viewpoint is already incredibly questionable since it's still only 1 extra hit.

I referred to him as Armando-Warmando in another thread because it sounded like a taru name and the name stuck with me. I was simply being friendly.

People can call me whatever but for the sake of reference, my character is actually Elvaan.

I never use to be a big believer in DPS being very functional because I always held onto the experience that quick spike damage was the key to success, but my thoughts on the matter have changed as late since I've started getting into the "math" of all this crap.

Damage over time is pretty much always king. DPS is often the best indicator of a weapon's capability but you need to be quite clear on what it does and doesn't say. The DPS number only accounts for DMG and Delay, not any additional stats the weapon may have, which at 75 can be quite ridiculous (e.g. +5 Acc,+18 Attack on BD, 45% proc rate on Joyeuse, etc.)

[ShadowHolyFlyingDragon]

Re: Dual wield question

Dual Wield has nothing to do with Haste calculations, it's handled separately and independently. What you're really looking at is (1-0.35) * (1-0.20) = 0.52, means an overall reduction of 48%

The game calculates the average between the two? Please explain.

No, Haste isn't factored into TP calculations. That's why the distinction between Haste and Dual Wield exists. Dual Wield changes your Delay directly which is what's used for TP calculations. BD + Joyeuse is handled as 321 Delay combined no matter how much Haste you have.

kthx Yeh, didn't mean to insinuate that I thought the tp calculations were altered by Haste. I was primarily interested in talking about trying to obtain that opportunity of 45% rate of proc on Joyeuse while Dual Wielding and it seemed by your examples that stacking more Haste would help to return you to the opportunity of rate of proc. That was my intention/interest. I'm aware Haste does not configure into TP calcuation.

You completely lost me here, that part makes no sense.

Simple wording is throwing you off. Typed while in a hurry; basically what I said was that it's 22.5% to get your second hit from joyeuse, which would count as a third hit in your attack round of DW BD+JT, in my mind I simply tried to compound the statements together.

The "3 hit" viewpoint is already incredibly questionable since it's still only 1 extra hit.

There isn't an alternate viewpoint in the mathematics I'm proposing. I'm not trying to say you're getting 3 hits off Joytoy. I'm talking your entire attack round, main/sub/OA2. 22.5% to get get all three hits. Play on words. Not all statements are to be taken literally.

DPS is often the best indicator of a weapon's capability but you need to be quite clear on what it does and doesn't say. The DPS number only accounts for DMG and Delay, not any additional stats the weapon may have, which at 75 can be quite ridiculous (e.g. +5 Acc,+18 Attack on BD, 45% proc rate on Joyeuse, etc.)

kthx

In my understanding, if you got a bunch of melee DD together in an XP pt and they produced 100% tp to use a WS, all that spike damage killed mobs quickly. I thought that while DPS certainly helps to kill monsters, ultimately, WS damage wins out over DPS in the kill factor of mob kill speed. However, I realized simply that DPS is what takes you to get to 100% tp in the first place and most of the time, your DPS damage will outweigh your WS damage, depending on your weapon, gear, mob, buffs.

Didn't mean to think out loud. Nice to put some rumors to rest though. Similar to how sometimes people tell me its ridiculous to sub SCH under RDM, but I enjoy the lower cost of spells and the fast-cast you get, not to mention the insta-cast, insta-1/2cost you can put on spells. Plus I like how it raises my Elemental Magic skill. But people "literally" think I'm attempt to sub SCH under RDM to stack Refresh and Sublimation. e_e Honestly... read between the lines, ya know? Not everyone agrees on the sub, but I find it useful.

Historically, I play mages. I'm still new to the meleeing world. FYI

[Armando]

Re: Dual wield question

The game calculates the average between the two? Please explain.

It's not the average, it's both being applied separately instead of being added together.

For example, if you have 402 total Delay and only have 20% Dual Wield, the time between attack rounds is 402 * 0.80. If you have 402 Delay and only 70% Haste, the time between attack rounds is 402 * 0.3. If you have 20% Dual Wield AND 70% Haste, the time between attack rounds would be 402 * 0.80 * 0.3 = 96 which is very different from 402 * 0.1 = 40.

Moreover, at the current Haste cap, if DW and Haste were added together directly, NIN would be able to reach over 100% in total.

Simple wording is throwing you off. Typed while in a hurry; basically what I said was that it's 22.5% to get your second hit from joyeuse, which would count as a third hit in your attack round of DW BD+JT, in my mind I simply tried to compound the statements together.

It was actually the bit about 65% proc rate.

In my understanding, if you got a bunch of melee DD together in an XP pt and they produced 100% tp to use a WS, all that spike damage killed mobs quickly. I thought that while DPS certainly helps to kill monsters, ultimately, WS damage wins out over DPS in the kill factor of mob kill speed. However, I realized simply that DPS is what takes you to get to 100% tp in the first place and most of the time, your DPS damage will outweigh your WS damage, depending on your weapon, gear, mob, buffs.

Whether most of your damage comes from normal hits or WS varies a lot from job to job (for example SAM needs very few hits to WS so their ratio of WS to normal damage is pretty high.) But like you said the important thing to realize is that as long as you're fighting for an extended amount of time, the damage you do between WS simply can't be ignored. After all, you could kill one mob with your WS but you won't have a WS ready on the one that comes afterwards.