Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

[Hyrist]

In my years of debating Red Mage in various forums, the image of what a Red Mage in the front lines is supposed to do, as well as what it is capable of doing has refined itself. However, due to many of these forums are isolated away from each other, there has been no generalized "Frequently Asked Questions" Section to help answer some heavily repeated questions regarding Front Line Red Mage, without falling into an argument and stalling the discussion. It should be noted that a person can choose to agree or disagree with the statements made here, however to do so is purely a matter of personal opinion, as anything stated as facts will be supported with evidence.

These questions can be divided into two main categories, Pragmatic questions, ones that ask the reasons why the job would be invited over another or questions pertaining to it's role; and Performance questions, which question the specific aspects of what a Red Mage can do, typically pertaining to damage. This Guide is a work in progress that will cover these two aspects separately, regarding first the Pragmatic issues, clarifying the role, value, and purpose for a Front Line Red Mage.

As research continues in various forums investigating the recent update, the Performance questions will be regarded, referencing both past and recent data collections and mathematical studies regarding factors of damage, exp/hr, as well as comparing certain equipment and subjob combination.

[ Note for the DiV forums: I figure this place would be a good locale to start working on this guide. It's not too crowded and everyone here is fairly cool-headed. However, Red Mage isn't often a discussed topic here due to how inflammatory it is. These were factors in my decision to bring the FAQ here, as I know I'll get the best initial feedback.]

- PRAGMATIC QUESTIONS-
This section will regard the more basic issues regarding Red Mage in the front lines. Role, slot competition and basic 'who, what, when, where, and why' issues will be addressed from the perspectives of already established front line Red Mages.

Question: Why Should I invite a Red Mage for any other role than healer?
General Disclaimer Answer: Most instances in which you will encounter a Front Line Red Mage, you won't have to; They will be inviting you. Afterwords the Q&A below will give you reasons why to accept them without disbanding as well as invite one you already know of to your party, often like you would invite a DD Paladin you would know.

The Role of a Front Line Red Mage:
Perhaps this is the most important topic in the area. It is a common misconception that people believe Red Mage desires, can, or is capable of standing in the front lines while maintaining it's "Main Healer" Role. With very few rare exceptions, this mentality is correct. Red Mage functions in the role of a "Hybrid" similar to that of what it performed back in the earlier days of "Rise of the Zilart" and "Chains of Promathia" expansions. This means in most cases, the presence of a dedicated back line element is still required, though there are situations in which another hybrid can suffice (and potentially cause both jobs to aid the party better in doing so.)

- Outside Looking in.

Q: Why would I accept a Red Mage if I already have a healer?
A: Put simply, doing so eases the burdens of the healer class. This provides several benefits for the party, varying from consistency of important debuffs such as Dia tiers (and providing Dia III in instances where it previously was not possible), from keeping the party enjoyable enough for the back line to cause the party as a whole to last longer and net more exp. Additionally, including another set of eyes and spells allows for more security against common human error and unpredictable situations.

Comment: But I'm a <Job> and I can manage just fine!
Answer: Congratulations, you're one of the few in a privileged circumstance. In most instances, some exterior form of support is required, be that in the form of a Second Bard (who can assist heal), Corsair (who provides additional damage and occasionally provides heals with /whm as well.) or the exceedingly rare instances in which 4 damage dealers (Usually a party of heavily geared 2handers) manage to balance themselves accordingly. These instances, in spite of their strong popularity, are not common in the least, and are generally regulated to statics. In all other cases, some form of Hybrid Job provides the best security for a party while not harming the exp/hr or over-straining any individual party member.

- Inside looking out.

Q: What duties am I supposed to perform?
A: Refreshing and Hasting yourself is top priority as they are cornerstones for your performance. Doing this alone will alleviate a haste and/or refresh from your cycle. Afterward, your duties are dependent on the job performing the role of main healer. For White Mage, you split the Haste Cycle depending on what makes the white mage the most comfortable. For Scholars, you generally take the haste load in turn for not having to manage much healing spells at all. Summoners is the inverse of scholars in that they take the burden of the haste load in turn for you giving them refresh and managing a larger share of cures, enabling them to support the party more with damage as well.

Regarding Competition to Front Line Red Mage:
While Red Mage is by definition the original attempt by Square Enix for a hybrid job in FFXI, there have been several new 'hybrid' release jobs since the game's inceptions. This section will briefly regard issues pertaining to competition to Red Mage in the Hybrid role.

Q: Why should I accept a Red Mage over a 4th Damage Dealer?
A: In a few words: Security and Comfort. A 4th damage dealer puts your healer in strain and your party at risk. If one of your damage dealers ends up becoming a mana sink, or an unknown situation occurs, it will become much more difficult to gain control over a situation than it would if there was a Hybrid Red Mage involved. Effectively, a Front line Red Mage secures the functionality and potential 3 of those 4 Damage dealers could have, while alleviating some of the strain of the healer.

Comment: But [DD/Healer] does just fine!
Answer: Situations in which a Damage Dealer subs healer may regard some issues, but the ability listing is very narrow and camp dependent. Additionally, it detracts damage performance away from that particular damage dealing job that it could be doing otherwise. That said, it is a possible alternative and by no means should it be discouraged in general. Red Mage simply offers more tools for the party's disposal, which opens up more job options and can potentially mean more filled parties in various camps.

Q: Why accept a Red Mage over another Hybrid job/style?
A: In most circumstances, many of the Hybrid Styles can perform within the bounds of a good damage dealer provided they are allowed the leeway to focus more on damage. Even though they are capable of hybrid functions, a Hybrid Red Mage allows them to not have to, while still retaining some of their more 'party orientated' damage support. (For Example: a Front line Red Mage allows a Dancer to go full Saber Dance + Haste Samba while still using Box Step to aid the party.) The party then gains the benefits from both classes, which will make up for the weaknesses of any, due to their variability. Essentially this means the jobs by no means compete or conflict with each other. In fact, in some cases, a combination of certain hybrids can make up for the lack of a dedicated healer in parties. Red Mage also functions well in this situation.



[Div Note: I'll take a break here to allow some initial read-overs and further comments and questions. If I find any interesting ones that I believe should be added in I'll add them to the FAQ and answer them. Everything here is open for discussion in the thread, I'll just be adding on to the OP as I go along. Thanks for your time and feedback.]

[Sabaron]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

Deleted.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

Hyrist, first thing is you are my hero.

Second thing, your initial post has quite a few typos. I'm only 30 RDM, so I suppose pointing them out would be the most helpful thing I could contribute . . .

to help regard some of the primary issues people discuss when it comes to a to said topic.

This part is confusing.

and Performance questions, which question the specif aspects of

It's not too crowded and everyone here is fairly cool-headded.

In all other cases, some for of Hybrid Job

Refreshing an Hasting yourself

If on of your damage dealers

Anyways, the guide is looking great so far: keep it up! I can hardly wait for the finished product!

[Hyrist]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

Sabaron

I appreciate your opinion, but honestly that's all it is at this point.

I had anticipated that the first reaction to this guide would be negative, so I'm going to start off by saying to everyone in general if you want me to regard your posts, take the negativity out of it. This includes cussing.

Now, onto the problem at hand:

Tank
DDx2
RDM Melee
Main Healer
Buffer

The boded part flatly does not exist in a merit party set up if it wants to preform well. Tanks bring down the EXP/HR vrs a 3rd DD unless that "Tank" Is actually a DD PLD or a Ninja DD. Ninjas who function at their best in merit parties function as a DD with strong survival, while as Paladin DD, function under the Hybrid role. Otherwise the defense is distributed among the group. If you're using a tank in merits, that could explain your low exp/hr.

The underlined is where a Red Mage would be if there WAS a Tank, as most 'buffers' as you put it are primarily refreshers. Red Mage contributes enough damage and beneficial effects lower level to supplement what the bonuses of a "Buffer" can deal at that time and serves as an alternate to BRD or COR. Notedly, this is a lower-level set up.

You state "Security". This means that I have to sacrifice my XP rate in exchange for a lower probability of death.

That is one of only 3 primary reasons, but yes, you do. It's usually a low amount if done properly. Many people tend to blame Red Mage for factors that lower party exp that have nothing to do with the Red Mage, such as camp competition. Again, as it's a pragmatics discussion you're going to have to wait for me to finish the performance section (pending post-udpate parses) for me to give you an accurate statement as to exp/hr ratings.

If I'm being healed by a WHM/SCH or a SCH/WHM then I can get R2 or R3.

As you said, you view Red Mage as a primary healer, so you would be denied that R2 or R3 had you invited me as a main healer, at your current death rate, that's more than 200 exp an hour. Also, you're mistaken in your assessment of your actual exp loss.

What you don't mention is that when you die, you're weakened with 50% slow and an accuracy penalty for five minutes after death. Even if you were to assist your party in pulls at that point, you've just deducted your DPS by 25% during that time. (1/12 or 8% total self performance loss.) If you sit out to recover, your party's performance drops worse, and to top it off. Need I go on about if the party stops completely for you to recover and do RR breaks, which is normal in NA parties?

If my death rate is normally 1 per hour, that's 200ish XP per hour. On parse, I see RDM DD in the range of a PLD or Primary TH4 Thief even when well-geared (somewhere in the 5-8% range) whereas when I look at my DRG, he's in the 25-30% range!. You're suggesting that I sacrifice 15% of my front line damage to save 200xp per hour on deaths.

You must parse with some pretty poor Thieves, Red Mages, and Paladins if 8% your total damage assessment.
Here's a more accurate assessment.

Note the Thief had to pull and the Samurai was sub-par, but this is a reality of merit parties. Even then the RDM in the parse admitted that the WAR was eating improper food. However the RDM pulled 22% damage without the assistance of a Bard, not including consistent use of Dia III, which is a contribution to the party you did not factor in the Red Mage's damage. A SCH or WHM, hell, even a 'Main Healer' RDM would not be able to maintain that under normal circumstances. (Your fully decked out RDM with 2 AR pieces and/or dedicated outside refreshes from Bard and Cor may, however.) You can read the following posts for full assessments by Kinematics, creator of K-parse, as well as more details to the parse itself.

And note, both the WAR and the MNK in that parse out-gears and Merits the Red Mage in that parse ( Who has 0 Dagger merits or WS gear to support him.)

Now I have some questions for you. Are you partying with multiple 2hand DDs? If so, are they using WSes to kill off mobs? One of the primary factors in skewed parse is 1 hit weaponskills. They are not damage corrected when they overkill the mobs like Multi-hitters are. If someone takes a habit of Coupe De Grace, they destroy the parse. The same thing if people hit skillchains when the monster is low on life, it creates false damage readings. Luckily, Skillchains are factored separately on Parses.

Second, these "Melee RDM's" you refer to that you tolerate. Do you have access to their gear sets? Out of curiosity I'd like to know them, cause I'm in a fair estimate that they're not up to par. My gear is rather sub-standard but because I've geared based on what I know about Rdm melee, I tend to out-perform Red Mages who claim their gear is "Good." Perhaps I can help your colleague's performance, if they weren't just some random pick-ups.

However, that can wait till later. If you want to further question the performance levels of a Red Mage I recommend you wait till that section of the FAQ actually is written. Though I appropriate your sentiments on tolerating Front Line Red Mages, most of which are horribly misinformed on HOW to perform their jobs effectively, as it's a bit more complex than that of a normal Hybrid or DD.

There's also the update to consider. Accuracy, self-buff duration and recast extensions, as well as Enspell II line all are things that need to be factored in at this point. All the data we currently have will be pre-update and we don't know currently how much of an improvement we're receiving.

I would never invite you for that purpose and you would still be classified as a "Main Healer" as there is no way in hell I'm going to waste a slot on an extra "Melee RDM".

I think you forgot something I posted at the very beginning of the OP:

Question: Why Should I invite a Red Mage for any other role than healer?
General Disclaimer Answer: Most instances in which you will encounter a Front Line Red Mage, you won't have to; They will be inviting you. Afterwords the Q&A below will give you reasons why to accept them without disbanding as well as invite one you already know of to your party, often like you would invite a DD Paladin you would know.

Two final notes of response:

First, as a personal note, I don't appropriate you rolling your eyes at "Another Hyrist RDM melee thread". This isn't 2005. I've done my bookwork and I've taken the research to the actual field. Put bluntly: I'm proving it, not just chatting about it. I'd appreciate if there was a bit of respect for that in your future replies.

Second, the sad reality is, you're going to see a lot more Red Mages attempting this now. The game is growing more and more casual. The point of this FAQ is to answer generic questions that keep getting thrown up as means to argue, which in the end impedes the actual point, which is to improve the performances of those already making the decision. This paired with the Red Mage update, in spite of its current lack of impressiveness, is going to cause a wash of Red Mages in the front lines. Myself and a good number of players both Red Mage and not would like to see fewer of them do so terribly.

@ YM

Thanks for the tips, I'll go and work on it.

[Sabaron]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

Deleted.

[Armando]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

The fact that you called titled this post as an "FAQ" when it is obviously an opinion/debate piece seems to indicate a certain level of self-absorption.

It's not an opinion/debate piece if it deals with the actual execution of RDM meleeing, which Hyrist has stated will eventually be touched upon.

That aside, while I'm still not keen on letting some random RDM melee in a party, I'd rather have someone that knows what he's doing write a guide about it than have RDMs who will insist on meleeing either way suck really bad because it's taboo to write about RDM melee.

[ShepardG]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

Hmmm...

So many way's to approach this topic. I guess I'll say my personal piece first, then my view/opinion on this incoming update.

Personally, I love meleeing as a RDM. I have fun, and it amaze's me how well a RDM can melee. I don't get invited to parties (as RDM/NIN), but often ,with a couple friends, we would farm stuff, and I enjoyed the hell out of it.
Do I think I could/can surprise some folks in Meripo's? hell yeah I do.
Do I think I would be surprised by how I parse in a Meripo with 5 other really good players that care? Hell yeah I would be.

I see this update as just more of fiting the puzzle pieces together:
-A meripo of 6 loses one of their DD's, for some reason.
-They can't find another "DD" but their's another RDM seeking.
-They ask the RDM if he has a decent Melee setup, and he reply's that he does.
-They start partying like normal. before they were making 20k/hr, and now they avg 17k/hr.

(Hell, they might even avg. 20k/hr but I don't think so, and this is why everyone get's into this huge debate. Because it's extremely hard to prove it, and people can't see past the difference of 3k/hr.)

Sure having a Melee RDM/nin might not be as effecient, but hopefully composure makes it so that players won't hesitate to invite another RDM to melee.

As far as a FAQ should go, Maybe approach it more of:

IF your gonna melee on RDM, bring yadda yadda sub, and use yadda yadda gear.

/nin and Blau dolch/joyeuse

[Hyrist]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

I still don't buy it.

That's fine. There's a balance factor that has to be kept in check for a RDM to work properly, and that's usually juggeling defense/attack while boosting both your attack speed and enspell damage without loosing the 80% accuracy point. That's not an easy thing to do, nor can you sit there and listen to the math and reasoning for a short period of time and beleive it.

Some people just flatly won't, and that's a personal belief. I feel sorry for those people, honestly.

This isn't a personal opinion or debate peice. This is an FAQ stating the reasons why a Red Mage melees in the front lines, regarding each of the common questions. Flatly, you're going to agree or you're not and people will divide on that point. Red Mages had to fight tooth and nail just to get accepted into tanking roles, and there are still wealths of people who think Red Mages suck at tanking HNMs, regardless of weather or not it's true.

The point of the issue here is to get the basic arguments out of the way: Here are the reasons. If it's not enough for you, fine. No one is trying to cram it down your throat. However, respectfully, once the pragmatic answers are on the FAQ, it's time to stop debating them, and to start talking performance, the hows and how fars.

There was a two year issue going on about a parse a player named Starfox Posted, which pretty much confirmed that Red Mage could deal quite a bit of damage. The biggest issue was that people diddn't like the fact that Starfox filtered accuracy out, and it took noted players in the melee field to confirm the parse as accurate. Even then, people still think it's fabricated. However I personally attended on of his parties san,s parser, and he trumped a Samurai that wasn't built correctly, and was within small percentage points to a very highly geared ninja. I posted what pictures I could, and gave as much detail as I could, but still no one believed me.

That's the root problem with a public stigma. After a great deal of frustration on this, I decided I had enough. With low-end gear, and even without Utsusemi:Ni, I decided to go test what my average damage was against mamool ja and colibri, so the math junkies could project my damage output for a party.

The results are in the same thread as previously linked. Those are Here for Mamool Ja. And Here note that I'm not parsing AGAINST anything per say, but to evaluate my per-hit damage and accuracy rating to how I can improve for actual party testing. Nothing at this point as far as MY gear and parses go is conclusive. But thankfully, I'm not the only one now.

Tomorrow I've got my half-static under a promise to help me get an actual party going. Would you like me to post the results here as well or would you rather wait until we've got all the data complied for me to put it in the FAQ?

As far as posting a full "How to Melee on RDM" Guide. We're waiting till after the update. There's questions on weather or not the performance changes the way RDM will play and there's talk about the effectiveness of RDM/DNC to a party as opposed to RDM nin (20% defense down on every mob, advantage of both Enspell II and Sambas returning to the RDM. Too many factors to consider on paper.)

That said, you can expect a wealth of parses from me as I work my way to improving my RDM. I come from a unique static situation that pretty much forces me to frontline, so it's an opportunity to gather data and I intend on doing it to help quell debates on both ends and also help test certain combinations.

[Sabaron]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

Deleted.

[Armando]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

What portion of the OP has either (a) procedure, (b) build info, (c) statistics, or (d) basic concepts on the topic "Red Mage Melee"? None of it.

Therefore it has nothing to do with the execution of RDM melee. I have no problem with anyone writing a guide about RDM Melee. This particular post has no information on how to do anything or how to gear yourself. It has one line that has "INSERT GUIDE HERE" on it and the rest is just Op-ed on why you should invite Melee RDMs to your meripo.

I have no problem with a guide on RDM melee nor did I ever say I had a problem with such a thing, but the OP is not a guide in its current state, and it was posted before completion so he obviously intends to guide from his opinions. Just because he's adding a guide to it later, doesn't mean that I have to agree with his opinions which, at present, are the only visible portion of the intended work with the exception of some very minor party role discussion.

Jesus, man, chill. I'm still trying to understand why all the hate towards Hyrist. Your tone was condescending and negative from the get-go.

He probably started with the "Pragmatic Questions" section because it was the easiest to do. If you've ever written a guide you'd know how time-consuming it is and how tempting it is to start with the easier parts to write. I doubt it's part of some grand scheme of his to push his opinions into a new thread. I don't see the point in attacking the thread and claiming it's an opinion piece when it's obviously stupidly incomplete. What difference does it make that it doesn't have anything pertaining to the execution now? It will in the future.

Meh, whatever. I'm not gonna bother arguing further at 4 AM in the morning.

[Firewind]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

Q: Why would I accept a Red Mage if I already have a healer?
A: Put simply, doing so eases the burdens of the healer class. This provides several benefits for the party, varying from consistency of important debuffs such as Dia tiers (and providing Dia III in instances where it previously was not possible), from keeping the party enjoyable enough for the back line to cause the party as a whole to last longer and net more exp. Additionally, including another set of eyes and spells allows for more security against common human error and unpredictable situations.

This is why I'm a fan of the WHM+RDM backline if I'm going to be in a party for anything longer than 2 hours. It's also why I generally loathe exping on birds. Spending several hours sitting there casting nothing but Regen III and Haste is frankly boring. If I'm in an overly safe party I get bored and want to quit after an hour or two and well as anyone who plays a healer job can tell you, finding a rep is hard and it can take a long time.

If we take a RDM with us and go camp something a bit more dangerous (because let's face it, most DD's will want a small army of WHMs standing behind them if you want to camp anything remotely stronger than birds) then it stays interesting and if I need a break to streach and get some fresh air I can ask the RDM to step back to main heal so the party's exp isn't effected by me being AFK for 5 minutes.

That and having a combo like WHM+RDM gives the party access to a huge variety of spells especially if you take into account the subjob combinations that can be used.

[Hyrist]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

He probably started with the "Pragmatic Questions" section because it was the easiest to do. If you've ever written a guide you'd know how time-consuming it is and how tempting it is to start with the easier parts to write. I doubt it's part of some grand scheme of his to push his opinions into a new thread. I don't see the point in attacking the thread and claiming it's an opinion piece when it's obviously stupidly incomplete. What difference does it make that it doesn't have anything pertaining to the execution now? It will in the future.

This is true. The idea is to get this section of the guide out of the way so that discussions in more important sections such as guidelines on how to perform do not get boggled down by these horribly repeated questions.

There is also, (and I've said this before) the issue of Post-Update research. Red Mage in the front line stands to change some right now. How much completely depends on the strenght of both the Enspell II line and Composure.

This also back-wash effects discussions on performance levels.

There are a few basic tips I could throw in right now, like weapon choice throughout the levels, as well as gear sets to work on: These hopefully will remain more universal. However, I'd like to wait on it just to be sure. Right now, for weapons, the highest DPS rating Sword and Dagger are your best choices through the level, regardless of what the damage on the actual weapon itself is. Mainly because RDM is a DPS job and relies on Weapon Skills less than anything.

I could also put in tips like "Keep your enhancing leveled" And what not, but when I do that, I want it to be more complete, the reasoning why and it's effects on BOTH tiers of enspells. Right now I can only say "It'll be helpful" Without giving the basic calculations in saying "Every 20'th skill point raises a base damage, for every skill point past 150." And then go into the part where enspell base resist rate is based on your enhancing skill at time of cast, as opposed to during every contact, but it still modified by things like magical accuracy at time of hit, rather than at time of cast.

Also there are tips like at level 50, having your latent ring equipped and functioning is more of an improvement to your DPS than a +5 Accuracy ring, that are in question all over again. As it stands now, as long as you keep your enhancing skill capped, the item becomes a staple piece of gear till about level 68, when the monster's magical resistance rate and evasion rate starts to equalize the item more. We had to parse that to determine the worth of the ring, because some Veteran front liners were swearing by it. Now with the enspell IIs coming, we have to recalculate how much of a percent that ring does to total damage all over again, and it may get scratched from the guide, where it was a near-staple before.

There's so much right now in the performance and 'how to' areas that are potentially changed by this update, which is why I'm holding off by it. It might have seemed small at first glance, but there's a lot there that has to be tested and considered. I don't want to write a guide only to have to re-edit everything over again.

[Karinya]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

If we take a RDM with us and go camp something a bit more dangerous (because let's face it, most DD's will want a small army of WHMs standing behind them if you want to camp anything remotely stronger than birds) then it stays interesting and if I need a break to streach and get some fresh air I can ask the RDM to step back to main heal so the party's exp isn't effected by me being AFK for 5 minutes.

Well, I dunno about the afking part, but I love fighting dangerous mobs. That's why I keep ranting about the exp/hr from dangerous mobs being so crappy compared to the exp/hr from pathetically wimpy mobs. (I'm looking at you, imps and colibri. And just looking at them is enough to take off about 1/3 of their HP.)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

If I may make a suggestion to anybody who shall post in this thread from here on in:

Constructive criticism: GOOD
Destructive criticism: not so much

Thank you.

[Sabaron]

Re: Front Line (Melee) Red Mage FAQ [WiP]

Very well... I have deleted all above posts. This does not mean that I agree with the opinions expressed in the OP (and they are in fact opinions). I will simply restate my opposition at a later time in a less defensive tone. Initial defensiveness arose from the dated RDM/DNC as Main Healer threads.