RDM Melee? Whered they go?

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I truly respect the person that takes the extra time to go out earn the equips and read up on how to play their job optimally. That goes for EVERY job.

This is the kind of category I find myself to be placed in. There's just something rewarding when going with an unconventional idea to make it work, as well as builds and tactics that already work. To see someone else do the same thing continues to drive me forward with it.

For instance, I'm always researching new swords and Melee/WS gear as well as other types of magic skill+ gear for RDM (seeing as I already have a good amount of mage gear), looking for a way to implement throwing (which I recently capped) when tanking on NIN, and coming up with any sort of magical build for BLU. It's ttapping into those unknown or untouched parts and combining them with what I already can do that makes jobs more interesting.

lol, I just love playing around with utilization.

[Prons]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Hi I'm leveling red mage and I just main cured in valkurm dunes am I one of the cool kids now?

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

So yeah, been a bit since I was last here so only responding to the more recent posts.

And since I agree with most of what IceMage and 'Kitten wrote, guess who I'm focusing on?

TGM, that's who!

While I can understand what you say when you said that 1% of Rdm can melee well, and that's why you don't let them because chances are that you'll get a bad one, I must say I don't like it. It smacks just a little too much of the old, "99% of all Dragoons are utter crap, so don't invite one (and they eat baby chocobos and steal your exp too!)" for my liking.

And that's fine, to each their own, I'm just saying the reasoning bothers me a little is all.


And now for the Mageo part....

You conveniently ignored my point about Rdm having trouble landing enfeebles without using the elemental staffs (at 51+ I said) and go straight to the, "well put in some merits in them enfeebling/potency merits boy!" Well guess what, not everything is about merits, not everything is merit level. There are 24 levels between lvl 51 and lvl 75, only one of those levels will allow you to gain and use merits, it ain't lvl 56, nor is it 60, or 74. It's lvl 75 that merits come into play. So my point still stands that a melee Rdm is crippled if they have to switch out their weapons in order to land enfeebles because they will not be able to use a single WS, or they will be damn lucky if they can get off a WS.

Your right, I withdraw that assumption, regen is a great spell, I use it liberally on the front line if it is called for.

You do realize that Regen at level 75 is rather obsolete and pointless right? Regen II/III are far better.

Also, kindly watch the spelling if I'm going to be reading your posts. Whole =! hole, and some other stuff. This is more a pet peeve with my sister since I just finished proof reading some of her work memos for her, but goodness people, if you're 20+ you should know the difference between just/jest, wood/would and all those others. Actually I'm being generous, you should know it by age 10.


Jumping around through some of your posts now:

Its not a gripe to get you guys to accept joe-bow the errant gear melee RDM, its going to be done anyway, so it should be done in a way that helps the group.

I can respect that.

and when it comes to melee when someone asks, what is the best way I can do it. We get the answer don't. So they go out and suck.

You get the answer don't do it because Rdm melee for the large part sucks, unless you focus so much on your melee that the mage aspect of your job suffers. People invite Rdm for the mage, not the melee aspect.

So is it a surprise when after being told not to, when a Rdm goes out and melees in an inappropriate place that they suck? No, it's not.

You perhaps forget that I know the DD jobs, I know what you need to gear to approach what a normal DD would consider an acceptable level of damage output. Outside of the Jungles, and pre merits, Rdm does not have what it takes to handle their mage duties and melee effectively at the same time, they just don't. The party performance goes down, exp/hr goes down, the number of exp chains goes down, the amount of downtime goes up.

How are they supposed to get any better when the information sources get bogged down, and misinformed by people on the other side of the coin.

And how are they supposed to get better when someone like you is saying that a Rdm melee can provide the kind of boost to a party like a second Brd or a Cor by MELEE ALONE?!?!

That alone shows that you do NOT understand the melee aspects or what 2x Brd or Brd/Cor bring to a party. You do not understand the differences between a party wide boost vs your added melee damage.

And even that is ok really, it's why there are still debates over whether people should use Shield/Armor Break or should they use Sturmwind.

But you should also understand that you lack that knowledge before going around telling people how to melee and what kind of a boost a melee Rdm gives to the party.

You should also understand that whether or not you are right or wrong about the effectiveness of Rdm melee, you ARE going against what many people believe in. The burden of proof lies on you. YOU need to show the parses, the data, what jobs were in the party, what buffs were used, gear, WS used, spells casted, resists, every detail of it, to us, the people you are trying to convince.

You need to be incredibly meticulous in this, because so far all we have seen from you are highly biased comparisons, and pulling numbers out of the air. I don't care if you eyeball the numbers, that can be deceiving. Unless you actually pull out some parses from fights, and provide every single excruciating detail about it, you are not going to be able to prove any of your points.



When I sit back and think about it, what the heck is the point in this? Mandragora and Colibri are considered the weakest monsters in the entire game. They have crappy defense, they have crappy evasion, and their TP attacks are for the most part annoying at best. Pecking Fury is the only dangerous TP move between the two of these monsters. And yet here we are, debating whether Rdm can melee the weakest monsters in the entire game, and therefore proving that they can melee effectively in parties? That is a rather absurd argument.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

You perhaps forget that I know the DD jobs, I know what you need to gear to approach what a normal DD would consider an acceptable level of damage output. Outside of the Jungles, and pre merits, Rdm does not have what it takes to handle their mage duties and melee effectively at the same time, they just don't. The party performance goes down, exp/hr goes down, the number of exp chains goes down, the amount of downtime goes up.

What in the hell are you talking about? Do you read or skim for things to nit pick on? I have already clearly said we are filling the spot where a BRD or COR would be, and by providing support via hastes cures enfeebles, and our melee damage we are an effective replacement for them.

And how are they supposed to get better when someone like you is saying that a Rdm melee can provide the kind of boost to a party like a second Brd or a Cor by MELEE ALONE?!?!

That alone shows that you do NOT understand the melee aspects or what 2x Brd or Brd/Cor bring to a party. You do not understand the differences between a party wide boost vs your added melee damage.

Again do you read or skim? I have already cleary stated we provide support with our spells in haste and refresh, cures and enfeebles, as well as contribute 18-20% of total party damage (the same 20% increase BRD would provide in terms of damage out put for the DD) it is not just added melee damage, melee damage is their to supplement the lose of +66 attack to each melee from the loss of the 2nd BRD. It is not by melee alone it is a combonation of melee, and support. COR needs to do the same to match a bard, and bard does not melee so it supplements the damage drop with songs. Its like a fucking broken record today.

You should also understand that whether or not you are right or wrong about the effectiveness of Rdm melee, you ARE going against what many people believe in. The burden of proof lies on you. YOU need to show the parses, the data, what jobs were in the party, what buffs were used, gear, WS used, spells casted, resists, every detail of it, to us, the people you are trying to convince.

You need to be incredibly meticulous in this, because so far all we have seen from you are highly biased comparisons, and pulling numbers out of the air. I don't care if you eyeball the numbers, that can be deceiving. Unless you actually pull out some parses from fights, and provide every single excruciating detail about it, you are not going to be able to prove any of your points.

Why should I prove shit. I don't even play this game anymore. Fact is there have been parses and gear sets and screen shots etc etc etc posted for years, and of course its always , claimed to be fake fake fake fake. I have already listed what spells we supplement to support the party. I have already provided numerous instances in which scenarios are best for this. I have provided numerous gear lists for optimal functions. Hell Hyrist linked you to the top most rdm Melee a few pages back and all that was spawned from that was Ice Mage posting a photo of chain #260 bfd, if you want all the information its all around you. It has been around you, if your not seeing it it is because you do not wish to. Its been around for years, and is still being put out. Of course Like I said before anytime information on gear situations etc it is bombed with BS responses from the resident douchebags until nobody gives a shit anymore.

When I sit back and think about it, what the heck is the point in this? Mandragora and Colibri are considered the weakest monsters in the entire game. They have crappy defense, they have crappy evasion, and their TP attacks are for the most part annoying at best. Pecking Fury is the only dangerous TP move between the two of these monsters. And yet here we are, debating whether Rdm can melee the weakest monsters in the entire game, and therefore proving that they can melee effectively in parties? That is a rather absurd argument.

Dream flower is not considered a strong attack move? odd Ive seen it be the cause of party wipes before, It is not just colibri, RDM can melee effectively on just about anything in this game (exception maybe being AV and Panwarden) But it is not about the melee, its about being able to support the party in the absence of other support. We all know (or should know by now) 3 DD 2 support 1 healer parties are better than the rest. If you start finding BRD's and COR's comming in package deals on a regular basis SS it for me, because until then a hybrid role will be viable. (this is not limited to just RDM, but encompasses BLU,DNC, PLD DD as well).

(edit: I didnt skip your post on level 51-pre merit 75 because I have always been one to say it is not as viable. From 1-40 our melee side is stronger than mage and we have gear to supplement it. 40-70 is the opposite, 70-75 is a toss up depending on your target, and post merits you can build yourself into anything you want.)

(edit2: right because I for got your DD's can do up to 84 additional effect damage average of 46-69 when you get enough strength gear to match that let me know. Am I saying we can out damage no, but we can definitally out damage alot of classes, and we can parse within 85-90% of the top ones but again that is besides the point.)

(please rewind this tape for the next poster as it will probably need to be said again)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

@TGM:



That is all.

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

What in the hell are you talking about? Do you read or skim for things to nit pick on?

Oh, I don't know, perhaps it's you saying that Rdm can melee at just about any level? Even providing a nice little list of what you thought Rdm could really shine on in terms of melee?

As I said, I know what it takes to hit those mobs, and Rdm can't cut it in terms of melee and keep up with their mage duties. One or the other suffers.

Again do you read or skim? I have already cleary clearly stated we provide support with our spells in haste and refresh, cures and enfeebles, as well as contribute 18-20% of total party damage (the same 20% increase BRD would provide in terms of damage out put for the DD) it is not just added melee damage, melee damage is their there to supplement the lose of +66 attack to each melee from the loss of the 2nd BRD. It is not by melee alone it is a combonation combination of melee, and support. COR needs to do the same to match a bard, and bard does not melee so it supplements the damage drop with songs. Its like a fucking broken record today.

Bolded the important parts, spelling corrections are in bold and italics.

Assuming a 3x DD 1x Rdm 1x Brd and a main healer of some kind, let's assume Rdm, party setup which you seem to be describing, since prior to this you were talking about a 3x DD 2x Support 1x healer party setup.

You are claiming, that as a melee Rdm, you will deal damage that will make up for 2x +att songs from a second Brd, on three melee. You are claiming, that as a melee Rdm, you will deal damage that will make up for two of the following rolls, Warrior/Rogues/Chaos, on three melee.

Hence I said, you obviously do not understand the melee aspect, and why a parser is so important because you obviously have no idea the benefits of those party wide buffs versus your melee damage. Which, will be lower with your spellcasting, especially if you are handling the Hastes while the other person handles the healing, or if you're even handling half of the Hastes.

And why should you prove anything? Because you still are trying to weigh in on the Rdm melee subject. You never proved anything in your Rdm melee thread, you haven't proven anything in this thread. If you want people to take you seriously you're going to have to prove that you know what you're talking about.

Dream flower is not considered a strong attack move? odd Ive seen it be the cause of party wipes before,

It's a pathetically weak move, assuming the Whm is standing out of the radius, which any Whm should know and be doing. If that's been the cause of a party wipe then a certain mage was meleeing when they shouldn't have been, or otherwise careless.

I have yet to see a party wipe to Dream Flower. That's laughable if that's the best you can come up with.

(edit: I didnt skip your post on level 51-pre merit 75 because I have always been one to say it is not as viable. From 1-40 our melee side is stronger than mage and we have gear to supplement it. 40-70 is the opposite, 70-75 is a toss up depending on your target, and post merits you can build yourself into anything you want.)

Again, I will point out that I will hit for as much or slightly more in a single hit with very little to no buffs than you claim to be able to in one attack round with Blau/Joy/Enspells. When properly buffed, I will be dealing in the realm of 250+ damage per swing. Call me when you have enough +enspell damage gear to reach that.
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I didnt skip your post on level 51-pre merit 75

Actually you did. You took my statement of 51+ and went straight to talking about using merits.

1-40 our melee side is stronger than mage

False, by level 26 you have no problems main healing a party and you should never have a problem acting as a replacement Blm.

Also, in your haste to try to prove me wrong kindly do watch the spelling.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

It doesn't just revolve around gear. When I started I ran off the AH, I had a miser, SH, Chiv Chain, Woodsman rings, all stuff that is easily obtained via farming for a couple hours a day. The average joes I was refering to are the ones who do not even attempt to make an effort in being effective.

And thats why I said...

I truly respect the person that takes the extra time to go out earn the equips and read up on how to play their job optimally.

And there doesn't have to be a dedicated walkthrough for a melee rdm. You can read various posts on haste, str, dex, etc and look at the equips available to you and learn what works and what doesn't. If people don't take the time to research, equip, and implement what they have learned then they gimp themselves.

While I can understand what you say when you said that 1% of Rdm can melee well, and that's why you don't let them because chances are that you'll get a bad one, I must say I don't like it. It smacks just a little too much of the old, "99% of all Dragoons are utter crap, so don't invite one (and they eat baby chocobos and steal your exp too!)" for my liking.

And that's fine, to each their own, I'm just saying the reasoning bothers me a little is all.

First I never said that I didn't let anyone melee. If they choose to melee that is their choice just as it is my choice to not party with them. I can not make anyone do or not do anything, that is up to the individual.

Second, comparing the "loldrg" attitude the community had has nothing to do with what I'm saying. How can it? One job had their weapon skill nerfed by SE and then the attitude of the community went from "AWESOME let's get a drg!" to "OMG don't get the loldrg!". The other job is not correctly researched by the players that want to melee therefore leading to inefficient gimped rdms that ruin the fun for others........but hey thats ok as long as they are having fun! If I make a party and I have had a bad experience with someone because they play their job poorly or have extremely gimped gear, then I do not invite them. 99% of melee rdms wear gimp gear and do not do their job well so I choose not to invite them, same thing.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Im not trying to prove you wrong. Its not about right and wrong. (well it is but not in the sense your making it to be.)

Go back a few pages there bub, and you'll clearly see me posting why we can not melee well through the levels 40+

Beetles, Crabs, Lack of gear all effect us until about level 70. Prior to that we have the gear to do it as well as the fact the scaling of skills is minor. I have never said we can melee at any level.

You want to go into some numbers then? Lets do so.

Lets assume 3x SAM/DRG

Soboro/Mythril Grip+1/-/Civet Satchet
WTurban/PCC/Brutal/Wyvern Earing
Hauby+1/Dusk Gloves/Snipers+1/Raja's
Foragers/Swift/KittyPants/USune-ate

STR: 66+13(79) (89 with hasso)
DEX: 73+24(97)
Skill: 292
ATK: +29 (+10 From /DRG)
ACC: +38(+10 from /DRG and +10 from Hasso)
Food: Arrabbiata +1

ACC= (200*1+92*.9)+(97*.75)+38+10+10
ACC= 413

ATK without minuet
ATK = {( 8 + 292 + (89*.75) + (29) + (10)) * (1+.225) = 497

minuet x2
ATK = {( 8 + 292 + (89*.75) + (29) + (10+66)) * (1+.225) = 577

Haste: 24% + 10(hasso)+ 15(haste)+ 20(2x march) = 69%
Delay: = 450*.31 = 139

Base Damage vs LVL 81 Colibri (Defense 322, Evasion 334, VIT 67, AGI 67 )

fSTR= (89 - 67+4)/4 = 4.5
Soboro Weapon Level = 40/9 = 4
fSTR = 8
base damage = Base Damage = 40 + 8 = 48

pDIF no minuet
497/322 - (6*.050) = 1.24
DMG= 48*1.24 = 59


With DIA II (322*.90 = 289
497/289 - (6*.050) = 1.41
DMG= 48 * 1.41 = 67

pDIF with Minuet
577/322 - (6*.050) = 1.49
DMG = 48 * 1.49 = 71

With Dia II
577/289-(6*.050) = 1.69
DMG = 48 * 1.69 = 81

Estimated damage

(71*1.66) = 117
(81*1.66) = 134


81/67 = 20.8% increase.

RDM/NIN

BlauDolch/Joyeuse/-/Tiphia Sting
WTurban/PCC/Suppa/Hollow
SH+1/Dusk/Sniper+1/Fencer
Forager/Vbelt/Phal/Dusk

Skill 266/271
STR: 71
DEX: 68 (+5 food) (73)
ATK: +26
ACC: + 44
Haste: 16+15+20 = 51
Enspells +8
Food Bream Sushi +1

Delay = 224+178 * .80 * .49 = 157

ATKDagger = 8+266+(71/2)+26 = 335
ATKSWRD = 8+271+(71/2)+26 = 340

ACCDAGGER = (200*1)+(66*.9)+(73/2)+44*1.17 = 397
ACCSWRD = (200*1)+(71*.9)+(73/2)+44*1.17 = 402

WEAPON DAMAGE

Blau = 33/9+71-67+4/4 = 3 = 36
Joyeuse= 35/9 +71-67+4/4= 3 =38

Pdif

Blau: 335/322 - (6*.050+.11) = 1.0
Joy: 340/322 - (6*.050+.11) = 1.0

With DIA II

335/289 - (6*.050+.11) = 1.0
340/289- (6*.50+.11) = 1.0

DMG =

36*1.0*1.25 = 45
38*1.0*1.25 = 47.5

Enspells

@300 skill + merits 20 damage @ 80%

20+5+3 = 28*.80 = 22

Estimated total damage per round.

(45+22)+(47+22*1.45) = 167.05

Ok so to do this fairly I am now going to get the DPS for each

SAM DD No Minuet
117/139*60*.95 = 47.97

SAM WITH MINUET
134/139*60*.95 = 54.94

RDM (combined ACC = 92%)
167/157*60*.92 = 58.71

So 3 of the same DD lets find the difference the BRD offers.

54.94-47.97 = 6.97*3 = 20.91
58.71-20.91 = 37.8 DPS more than what a BRD offers 3 players.

Now lets examine weaponskills.

(Im just going to assume we are both in the same gear as I don't know what a sam would blink to, and I don't want to make a bias with my ws gear)

SAM WS no Minuet

WSD = (( 40 + 8 + 89*.75) * 1.5625) * 1.41
WSD = 252.80*1.41 = 356.44

SAM WS Minuet

WSD= ((40+8+89*.75)*1.5625)*1.69 =
WSD= 303.01*1.69 = 512

RDM WS

WSD= ((33+3+73*.30)*1.0*1.25
WSD= 72.56 * 6 = 435.36*.75 = 326avg


SAM difference = 512-356.44 = 155.56 x 3 = 465

RDM difference 326 - 465 = 139

AVG time for a SAM to hit 6 hits (6 hit build)
139/60 = 2.13*6 = 12.78 = 13 seconds.

RDM AVG time to do 15 swings
157/60 = 2.61*15= 39.15

WS Differential * time differential. = 139*3 = 417.
DPS Differential 37.8*13 = 491.4 * .75 (to represent 25% casting time)= 368.55
Overall damage difference 368.55 - 417 = 48.45

So in the end all that separates this is 47-50 damage one extra hit on a weapon skill or a couple extra swings care to retract your statement? Tomorrow ill do mamool my head hurts now.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

^

DD x 3 + RDM Melee + BRD + Healer = 1 puller

DD x 3 + BRD + COR or BRD + RDM caster = 2 pullers

How is your melee going to make up for this disparity?


Icemage

[Taskmage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

What's funny is that in doing the math for the DD rdm, you assumed the rdm wouldn't cast a single spell. Just nonstop melee unhindered by cast times, which is exactly how we stereotype melee rdms.

Your attempt at a proof merely underscores the fact that you either don't understand or willfully ignore the logistical issues Icemage and Vyuru keep bringing up. Successful parties are about more than raw numbers and like it or not the crucial support aspect of rdm does interfere with its ability to do things like attempting to keep up in dps with a sam.
___________

Another amusing detail: You're assuming over 10M worth of melee gear in my server's currency, not even counting the speed belt, to compete with an 8k Cornette +1.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

What's funny is that in doing the math for the DD rdm, you assumed the rdm wouldn't cast a single spell. Just nonstop melee unhindered by cast times, which is exactly how we stereotype melee rdms.

Your attempt at a proof merely underscores the fact that you either don't understand or willfully ignore the logistical issues Icemage and Vyuru keep bringing up. Successful parties are about more than raw numbers and like it or not the crucial support aspect of rdm does interfere with its ability to do things like attempting to keep up in dps with a sam.

And this is exactly why I never went into the numbers anyway.

I can sit there on COR and try to just post raw DPS, too, but it doesn't prove anything by numbers alone. I have things like Phantom Roll, running to the backline to Phantom Roll and sometimes even pulling to factor into my performance.

When you factor in the RDMs actual duties, the haste/refresh cycles, casting Enspells, Blink, Stoneskin, Phalanx, curing and so on, its going to weigh down your DPS signifigantly. I only have two factors weighing down COR and that's only if I'm not pulling, which gives me a lot of time to melee.

If I'm pulling in a merit setting, however, my DD goes right out the window and it should. I'm more or less emulating BRD pulling at that point. To make that even more practical, I have to turn to Peacemaker to compete with Manteele BRDs and Dia pulling RDMs. But even if I'm not pulling, I should be spotting the puller here and there and lining up another mob the BRD missed it and it spawns nearby.

These aren't things covered by math, they're situational. Sometimes the BRD doesn't really even need help on pulling, but you never just assume that will be the case.

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

@TGM

Ah, ok. I misunderstood your earlier post then, sorry about that.

@Mageo

You want to go into some numbers then? Lets do so.

Lets assume 3x SAM/DRG

Soboro/Mythril Grip+1/-/Civet Satchet
WTurban/PCC/Brutal/Wyvern Earing
Hauby+1/Dusk Gloves/Snipers+1/Raja's
Foragers/Swift/KittyPants/USune-ate

STR: 66+13(79) (89 with hasso)
DEX: 73+24(97)
Skill: 292
ATK: +29 (+10 From /DRG)
ACC: +38(+10 from /DRG and +10 from Hasso)
Food: Arrabbiata +1

1) Where is the Samurai's WS gear? A Samurai would be a serious gimp if he did not have a WS gearset. Even that gear may be suboptimal (AKA gimp) for Sam DD. What is your WS gearset? You should have one, else again I call gimp.

2) What merits do the Sam have? What merits does the Rdm have?

If you don't know what the average Sam merits, then use this:

8/8 GKatana
4/4 Critical Hit Rate
5/5 Strength
5/5 Overwhelm for +19% damage on WS
5/5 Store TP for +10 sTP extra per hit
5/5 Meditate for a timer of 2:30

You can also assume that a Samurai will be using the Saotome Kote and the Myochin Kabuto as a swap in macro for Meditate, granting between 140%TP and 180%TP whenever Meditate is used.

That's by and large pretty standard merit and gear choices for a Sam.

3) You are leaving out Jump, High Jump, and Meditate information, which highly enhances the rate at which Sam gain TP.

4) What WS is the Samurai using? What WS is the Rdm using? What TP% are they using their WS at?

5) Why is the Samurai using a Swift Belt and not a Velocious Belt as well?

6) Now that you're talking Sam, you should think about Hagun vs Soboro arguments. Also, since you don't seem to want to make a Sam WS gearset, try:

TP >>> http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?172934
WS >>> http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?172935

Milich eats meat FYI, although I forget what type, and I believe that's as Sam/Thf, he also uses a Hagun, not a Soboro, I don't know what merits he has, but feel free to use the ones I provided above if you want to try to figure out damage and all that.

And so far all I'm seeing is you pulling numbers out of the air.

So in the end all that separates this is 47-50 damage one extra hit on a weapon skill or a couple extra swings care to retract your statement? Tomorrow ill do mamool my head hurts now.

Not really, especially since I was talking about Drg damage and not Sam damage. Your statistical methods also leave much to be desired. Also, as Taskmage pointed out, your Rdm also does no casting. I thought you were supposed to be able to handle some casting while meleeing? Also, as Icemage pointed out, party dynamics shifted drastically, by not pulling, you are slowing down the party. If you pull, you slow down your melee. Which is what I've been hitting on all this time. Yes, you can melee in some places, but you have to gear for it and when you do melee your mage duties suffer for it, and total party exp goes down, which you have just proven.
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Also, show more of your math. All I'm seeing is, "X, Y, Z, a miracle occurs somewhere in the middle, and here's the result!" As far as I can tell, you don't take the Soboro's extra attacks into consideration. The math is not worked out, you don't give a time on the comparison. Is it for one minute? Sixty? Less? More?

Again, when you're trying to prove something, the burden of proof lies on you. So far you're again just pulling numbers out of the air.
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Also, another thing. Why are you using an Arrabbiata+1 instead of Arrabbiata for the Samurai's food? You realize that the +1 offers the same stats, lasts for one hour instead of two, caps at lvl 96 cooking, so has a low HQ chance and is therefore expensive as hell, uses dragon meat and even more expensive because of it.

Red Curry, which also uses dragon meat, and is cheaper to make than Arrabbiata+1, and cheaper to make than Arrabbiata, has Att+23%, caps at +150 Att, needing 652 to reach +150 Att. Oh, did you know that Arrabbiata is Att+22.5%, caps at +120 Att, needing 533 to cap?

Did you know that Rabbit Pie gives a +25% Att, caps at +100Att, and is cheaper than either of the above options?

Did you take any of this into consideration in your comparisons and damage calculations?

And why am I taking into consideration of the costs? You seem to think that the more expensive items must be good, therefore you'll throw together a gearset of the most expensive things and it must be good. No, not always. There are better options for a Sam than a PCC, and others of that gearset you posted, just like there are better food options than what you've given.

Another reason that Hagun (base damage 75) is better than a Soboro (base damage 40), the extra damage on the weapon and the extra +att you gain from it also greatly boost the effect you gain from foods. The boost to WS that the Hagun offers also outweighs the boost to extra attacks that the Soboro gives, not by much or so I hear, but still, for overall effectiveness I do believe that the Hagun outperforms the Soboro.

Details like this are why I say that you do not understand the melee aspect as well as you think you do. If it were small things, it'd be one thing, but it's not.
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Oh, and before you think to try to one up me by going into riceballs, you have to constantly wear the gear that enhances the effects of the riceballs. General Sam consensus is that it's not worth it, especially since you'd be needing Shogun riceballs, which are a lvl 94 HQ cooking synth, and you'd be giving up roughly 11% Haste and some other stats in order to attain those benefits.

[Susurrus]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

When I sit back and think about it, what the heck is the point in this? Mandragora and Colibri are considered the weakest monsters in the entire game. They have crappy defense, they have crappy evasion, and their TP attacks are for the most part annoying at best. Pecking Fury is the only dangerous TP move between the two of these monsters. And yet here we are, debating whether Rdm can melee the weakest monsters in the entire game, and therefore proving that they can melee effectively in parties? That is a rather absurd argument.

I agree with you on the colibri, but on the mandragoras not so much.

Sure their TP abilities are meh..................but they're pretty fierce little monk types at high levels. That's why they make great BST pets :D

[Tek(Selphiie)]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Atleast there are Red Mages who put time and effort into their melee setup. (Along with all their other situational setups).

There sure are alot of Red Mages who think putting on a Scorpion Harness and equipping a sword is all that is needed to melee. The same Red mages who really do not deserve to have a Joyeuse. Then you check them and they are all hitting the mob with their lvl 14INT rings at 75, and their bounding boots.

/facepalm...

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

@ Icemage

Oh no some situational stuff. Hot damn your really going all out. Were down to what ifs are we. Well lets put it this way. If the BRD is having that much trouble getting mobs then yes I can help, anything within 19' of the party is getting ratk'd and slept. That takes all of what 4 seconds.

@Task Mage

Tsk Tsk someone didnt read very well.

DPS Differential 37.8*13 = 491.4 * .75 (to represent 25% casting time)= 368.55

If you need to cast more than 1 spell every 13 seconds your backline mage is not doing their job. I am playing a hybrid to supplement the backline mage not be one. (13 seconds @ 75% = about 4 seconds of casting time)

Keep up with a SAM's DPS? are you on crack? This is about supplementing the damage boost from a second BRD not playing around with a SAM. They said it can't be done, I did it all the time, and just provided the math that shows me covering it. I could care less if the sam gets a trillion DPS, as long as I am supplementing the damage from Minuet then I am doing my job.

@ BBQ

Your right sometimes we do need to help pull in those situations, but it is often limited to.

Pop
Sleep it
ok, slept

done.

Does DPS take a hit, it could if you have to pull more than nearby targets, but you shouldn't with a capable BRD. It takes all of 2 seconds to cast sleep. If it is a little further away Ill launch an arrow at it (not a stupid thing like dia).

Yes those BACKLINE duties eat up a lot of time, but when you have a few hastes a refresh, spot cures, dia and a few enfeebles, contrary to what you think It does not slow down DPS to much. Like I said earlier, If I have to cast more than one spell every dozen seconds or so being a hybrid, then the backline mage is not doing their job. I am sure you would love to bail out a mage as BRD/WHM or COR/WHM all the time, probably not eh, so why should I be put in that boat if you do not wish for it yourself?


@Vyuru

Another one who did not read everything.

1.) I did not include my WS for the sake of keeping things a little more even. As I do not know what SAM's Weaponskill in. (I even wrote that)

(Im just going to assume we are both in the same gear as I don't know what a sam would blink to, and I don't want to make a bias with my ws
gear)

2.) We have the same merits. 5STR, Max weapons, 4/4 CRIT I did not include any job specific merits as it has no real bearing on what a BRD supplies.

3.) I did include that, I would like to introduce you to he 6 hit calculation for TP

AVG time for a SAM to hit 6 hits (6 hit build)
139/60 = 2.13*6 = 12.78 = 13 seconds.

As far as I know 6 hit is only possible with meditate and jumps so um ya.

4) What weaponskill would you use? Your preachy about the game here and you have to ask questions. Sam is using wither tachi Kasha, or Tachi Gekko, RDM is Using Evis, both at 100% (just like all good TP burners)

5) Because its a rare drop that took me 6 months to get, and 99% of them do not have it.

6) Semantics you guys love them BFD, you want to calculate with a hagun be my guest, I imagine that the BRD won't change that to much.

Numbers from air? surely you jest. You can go and find everything I posted on ffxiclopedia, from gears, to weapons, to songs, to spells, to calculations. These are all based of the base stats +STR merits, Weapon Merits, Crit Merits.

Seriously its like talking to a group of devout catholics being a christian. My god is better than yours they say. Always another excuse of why it wont work eh.

Why might I ask did you get caught up so much in the SAM stuff? No more comments on the BRD thing? The BRDS 480 boost in damage to a group of 3 sams

Wow that is a whole Lot isn't it. I mean A RDM could not possibly cover that Increase. Oh wait he could. Stay on the topic.
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Oh and I just noticed you said something about me not including soboro's muli hit.

(71*1.66) = 117
(81*1.66) = 134

That is bassed of a 66% chance to double or triple and represents the average damage of the weapon FFS learn to read the god damn letter on your screen.