RDM Melee? Whered they go?

[Mhurron]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Let me make this crystal clear. It is physically impossible for a single class to fully cover the roles of enfeebling, main healing, and support, no matter what the job class.

This is true. The roles that RDM are invited for are very demanding in the focus department. This is another argument against meleeing in a party when they are invited to fill another role.

If you are invited as a support job, Refresh, haste, enfeebling and backup healing are going to keep you busy enough. If you need a backup to you being a backup because you are meleeing, you are doing it wrong. On top of it, in general what little time you would be swinging a weapon would be better spent casting one elemental spell.

If you are invited to main heal and you require a backup because you are spending time meleeing, you are doing it wrong. A single RDM can heal a burn party, unless they or the party is completely retarded, as burn targets in general don't live long enough for anywhere near the full enfeebling treatment.

You are invited to fulfill specific roles that require focus and do not leave a lot of free time. Play the role you were invited for, the one you agreed to. If you make your own parties, you have more freedom to dictate the role you want to fill.

There are things, some of them underutilized, where the ability to to a little of everything can be used to it's fullest. For one, if there were more 3-4 person EXP/Merit parties, you could have a number of happy RDM who get to join in the fun of whacking something while also keeping up with healing and what not. There are also times in the game where a RDM meleeing is really, really stupid, like a pickup Merit party aiming for 15k+ EXP/h. The problem is, most who are dead set on being a Melee RDM are dead set on doing it always and not considering that's not what they are in that party for.

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I can also solve jigsaw puzzles while tanking. :3

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Let me make this crystal clear. It is physically impossible for a single class to fully cover the roles of enfeebling, main healing, and support, no matter what the job class. While some parties can be on the ball enough to ignore this gap, most others will suffer the consequences, wither it is slower exp/hr, or occasional party deaths (which results in the same, but to a greater degree.)

Thank you. It's one of the things that some rdms just refuse to admit. I loved my melee rdm and for a while I would argue till I was blue in the face that I could melee and do my backline duties perfectly. Finally a good friend rubbed my nose in it and I stopped lying to myself. I'm glad to see some level headed knowledge that will lead newer rdms in the right direction.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

This is true. The roles that RDM are invited for are very demanding in the focus department. This is another argument against meleeing in a party when they are invited to fill another role.

If you are invited as a support job, Refresh, haste, enfeebling and backup healing are going to keep you busy enough. If you need a backup to you being a backup because you are meleeing, you are doing it wrong. On top of it, in general what little time you would be swinging a weapon would be better spent casting one elemental spell.

If you are invited to main heal and you require a backup because you are spending time meleeing, you are doing it wrong. A single RDM can heal a burn party, unless they or the party is completely retarded, as burn targets in general don't live long enough for anywhere near the full enfeebling treatment.

You are invited to fulfill specific roles that require focus and do not leave a lot of free time. Play the role you were invited for, the one you agreed to. If you make your own parties, you have more freedom to dictate the role you want to fill.

There are things, some of them underutilized, where the ability to to a little of everything can be used to it's fullest. For one, if there were more 3-4 person EXP/Merit parties, you could have a number of happy RDM who get to join in the fun of whacking something while also keeping up with healing and what not. There are also times in the game where a RDM meleeing is really, really stupid, like a pickup Merit party aiming for 15k+ EXP/h. The problem is, most who are dead set on being a Melee RDM are dead set on doing it always and not considering that's not what they are in that party for.

I read through your post, however the bold here is a critical factor in your argument. So much in fact, that I have to ignore the rest to emphasis this, as simple the rest is just debate over pragmatics. So here's what essentially kills this, and pretty much any other argument at this point:

"You are invited"

This now, can be considered and outdated concept. Why accept and invite as a main healer, when you can go out campaigning, soloing, level syncing, or just waiting for friends to come on that will invite you to do what you're doing?

The whole idea of being forced into pick up parties to get exp just doesn't have the steam it used to. At this point, I can't say with any sort of certainty that it's factor. Experience Points and Merits are not longer subject to 'the popular opinion' of what you're supposed to be doing.

If the party needs a main healer, then they simply don't have to pick me up. I'm one to be leading and constructing my parties anyways, so the whole argument of 'the role you were invited to do' has no wind with me. At this point, I believe such mentalities should be reserved for endgame training.

It might sound egotistical of me to say I won't do it, But coming from my perspective, I took a job for specific reason: to be versatile and use that versatility to change the course of fights, and that includes meleeing. I don't have a problem using that versatility in away that aids groups that have a common goal such as, HNMs, or other endgame events the way I'm requested to. However, when it comes to Exp/Merits, for it to be so common in this game, it has to be included as my personal time, otherwise the game become a job. And if that's the case, no amount of exp/hr is worth it, not with the alternatives being so plentiful at this point.

Seeing as many Red Mages, as I have in campaign, I doubt I'm the only one that has this viewpoint. And considering the number of non-anon, seeking Red Mages at merit level, or at any level at that point, I'd say it's not the Red Mages loosing out.

So while I agree with your statement as far as doing the role you're invited to do, I don't see it as valid anymore. I'm sorry.

It almost seems to me, that melee jobs take for granted the fact that they outnumber mage jobs, and then wonder why there are none seeking.

FFXI will be going to through some rather rough changes in the future as people re-figure where exactly their priorities lie.

For the first time in Vana'Diel history, players feel as if they have a choice, and that's definably going to rock the boat.

I just hope you can sway with it.

[BurningPanther]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Note that this post may be slightly bias

No moreso than any other post in this thread.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

It is physically impossible for a single class to fully cover the roles of enfeebling, main healing, and support, no matter what the job class.

It should be pointed out that, much like there's a 1% for melee RDM who actually can juggle it all thier duties and melee, that there are RDMs that can Enfeeble, Support, main heal, status cure and watch for MB opportunities in a similar way.

Problem is, much like the majority of moron RDM melees, there's a majority of moron RDM healers that burn more MP than they need to when supporting the party. They tend to toss out higher tier cures than what's needed, don't use regen and burn MP on status cures for ailments that may have already been spotted, taken care of by someone else or not even consequential to certain jobs. I don't need to Erase accuracy down on a BLM, INT down off a PLD or immediately remove a 1 HP a tick poison to anyone that isn't going to be taking a knee anyway.

But people knee-jerk and jump on this stuff anyway, wasting MP.

Had a RDM yesterday that loved to Curaga II bomb. Here I am as SCH/WHM with Divine Seal, Rapture and Penury ready to go and can toss out a Curaga for more HP and less MP than his Curaga II and he goes and does it anyway. The fuck? He wanted me as a main healer, too, apparently because he wanted to go melee on imps.

Lots or RDMs don't even alter their chat logs to see the mob as buffed themselves or if allies have been hit with a detrimental effect. These are easy things to fix and can improve your peformance.

Anyway, playing backline RDM isn't just about cures and haste. There is an art to it, some people can just fall into the zone and can juggle that much. Its not impossible, its just that not everyone can do it.

Like BRD or NIN and many other jobs, lots of people just hop onto RDM because its invite gravy, not because they're actually good at it.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Had a RDM yesterday that loved to Curaga II bomb. Here I am as SCH/WHM with Divine Seal, Rapture and Penury ready to go and can toss out a Curaga for more HP and less MP than his Curaga II and he goes and does it anyway. The fuck? He wanted me as a main healer, too, apparently because he wanted to go melee on imps.

Just like you reminded me in a different thread, Kitten, it's idiot epeen. To hell if that sch is going to show up a rdm!!

[Feenicks]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Can we have a VB tag for these threads that goes something along the lines of [ deadhorse ][ /deadhorse ] which flashes up a picture of ... a dead horse?

[Telera]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

For the first time in Vana'Diel history, players feel as if they have a choice, and that's definably going to rock the boat.

Agree 100%, and I think it's a good thing.

Red Mage friend of mine isn't a die hard Melee-er, but he likes to do it from time to time, and usually builds his own parties so he can do so. Before he outleveled me (before the advent of Level Sync) we used to party together, and he had no trouble keeping up with all his cycles plus meleeing if he chose to.

Hell, he even specifically told me to spend more time actually Summoning, and that if he really needed me to take over for a bit, he'd let me know.

Now that Level Sync and Campaign have come around, not only he, but many Summoners and other jobs that found themselves spending more time than not doing tasks they weren't fond of have options. Not that I ever minded main healing, I've always liked playing a support role, but there have been days where I've gotten sick of it, and wanted to play a more DD/Buff role, instead of more or less pure Cure botting.

Now I have that choice. Can't find a party and not feeling like main heal? Join my linkshell mates in a sync, and do as I please, so long as we can find a healer. If not, then I'll assume the role. And when I'm feeling like being a healer, I can do that, too.

It's just nice to have the ability to say 'No, I really *don't* feel like that today.' and still have plenty of viable means to level up. I love it.

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

It is hard to not retaliate to this emotionally as your tone is very negetive and therefore 'baiting' in a sense.

And for that I apologize, I shouldn't let my dislike of Mageo influence my posts.

I thank you for having the restraint that I lack and for making a very clear and concise post.

'Piddly Damage' only counts for monsters that are IT++ and only then if the Red Mage is improperly geared and subbed.

I think I'd most likely agree with that, although I do doubt that a Rdm could deal any serious damage with IT++ mobs unless they specifically geared for it and were eating sushi. I was editing that post and I seem to have accidentally deleted part of it. In the part I deleted I specified the crabs in Kuftal Tunnel, and the beetles in Garliage Citadel. Parties tend to over hunt these mobs when they first start exping on them.

on top of the assistance he can provide through enfeebles and cures, and not including the addition of skillchains and magic bursts that can be currently ignored.

My only issue with the bolded parts is that it'd really be better for the Rdm to be using an elemental staff at 51+ for those, which results in a loss of TP and WS/SC ability, which I view as an important thing unless you are fighting mobs with say, Amnesia or TP reducing moves. Before lvl 51, I don't remember just how much of a benefit a HQ wand is to enfeebles/nukes. It might be important, it might not, I just don't remember.

The entire argument is based off of the 2004 party ideal that killing a monster yielding 200exp in two minutes was the best way to party.

Actually it's based off of my own observations, which, perhaps there was a placebo effect, it's certainly possible, but it did seem like there were more WS used by the mobs. Which, for beetles isn't that bad, but for spiders and crabs in Kuftal, it can be.

That's partly based on watching melee Rdm, and partly based on having a melee Whm in a static once I hit the 50s. There most definitely seemed to be an increase in the amount of WS that the crabs in Kuftal spammed when she did her melee Whm thing, and a decrease when she did not due to the heavy Bubble Shower.

And you may ask why I was ok with her doing a melee Whm in a static, and why I'm coming down so hard on melee Rdm in this, and a few other, threads. The answer is simple. We were a group of friends having fun, she did not try to pass herself off as being more than she was. I think perhaps that is my biggest problem with Mageo's threads, well, besides the horrible examples of Rdm vs Drk that he gives. If he said Rdm can melee, dealing decent damage while performing most/all of their duties, I'd be ok with it, that's reasonable. To keep talking like Rdm is the king of DD, and spreading such information like spells don't delay melee swings (see any Drk forum for testing) that is unreasonable.

That to me is similar to when a fellow Drg made a test between a Drg/War eating meat, and a Drg/Thf eating sushi, and came to the conclusion that Drg/Thf gains a +15% accuracy bonus due to the extra Dex that /Thf gives.

Obviously blatantly wrong.

And for the record, I made most of my parties and targeted the VT-IT- crowd of monsters and didn't target the IT++ monsters, for the most part. There may have been one or two exceptions, but the VT to IT- level range of monsters were my preferred targets.

Even at that time, it was acknowledged that a Red Mage with proper gear and subjob could do an acceptable contribution to a party fighting Very Tough monsters.

Generally speaking, until Sushi came out, I never heard of Rdm being considered as doing acceptable damage to VT mobs. T mobs perhaps, but I'm pretty sure they weren't on VT mobs. I'm sure it depends on the forums you visit though, so it's possible I just never saw it.

and the performance level of gear since that time has greatly improved, as has curing/tanking ability (that would compensate for any 'additional wses')

While true, I don't know if I'd say that the additional curing/tanking ability would completely compensate for any 'additional wses', if in fact they are there.

Do you acknowledge the fact that you need 2 Buff orientated support class to deal that level of performance?

Indeed, and I need someone who can hold hate against that level of DD output, or other DDers putting out similar numbers to bounce hate around with. I cannot be the only one who has that much enmity in a party.

Do you simply not accept parties without 2 bards or a brd-cor combo?

Actually I rarely get them, and unless a party wants me to go Drg/Nin then I'm not picky with what party I join, unless it obviously won't work. Also, I don't build merit parties, I only join them. It's too much of a hassle building a merit party for me to bother. I'm fine making a normal exp party, but not a merit party.

Additionally, how far does that DoT performance go when you loose haste from having to invite a Scholar as opposed to a RDM or WHM?

Hasn't happened yet.

But it is a false test to directly compare the addition of a heavy DD class vs a Generalist in any damage contest.

Agreed, however that point was aimed more for Mageo since he was comparing a heavy DD class vs a Generalist. Furthermore the point about the 2x Brd or Brd/Cor was also aimed at an earlier post that Mageo had made in his melee guide about Bards giving him the +acc song for his melee build. Which takes away from the other melees in his party, boosting his performance at the sake of their performance. Party buffs should be given with the goal of boosting the abilities of the party, not the single player.

puppetmaster, blue mage, dancer, and thief deal an exorbitant amount of TP to the monster for 'pittely' amounts of dot in comparison to high damage 2h weapon wielders such as Warrior, Samurai and Dark Knight.

This is a little hard to compare IMO because they all do something different. Most DD Pups I see use the mage frame, which does a pretty decent amount of damage. Blu, I can't say much about. Dnc? They're also healing the party and doing stuff with that TP, it somehow seems more worthwhile to me than just a Rdm DD. Thf, it's all about the SC+MB that kills the mob quickly and about hate control, so that the other DD have freedom to go all out.

While the above jobs may not be among the top DDs out there, they all bring something to the table that is unique and makes them a worthwhile member of the party.

I'm not saying that melee Rdm doesn't do that. But I do believe that if you want to do a credible job as a melee Rdm, then you're going to have to gear for it, and most likely eat sushi to get an acceptable hit rate on mobs. While this will come at the cost of mage gears, you do have the ability to make gear swap macros. But here again, if you need to swap out your weapon to land an enfeeble, you're going to lose your TP, reducing your DD abilities. If you are eating sushi, you are not eating cookies or other magely foods, reducing your magical abilities or your mana replenishment abilities.

Since your mana replenishment abilities are reduced, and you're on the front lines, it puts the party more at risk, because typically, a Rdm is there to backup heal, enfeeble, and nuke.

If the party needs a main healer, then they simply don't have to pick me up. I'm one to be leading and constructing my parties anyways, so the whole argument of 'the role you were invited to do' has no wind with me. At this point, I believe such mentalities should be reserved for endgame training.

It's one thing if you make your own party around your own ability to play melee Rdm or whatever, because I'd trust you to know what you need to make it work and to make it work well. I do not think it's fair though to accept an invite with the intention of going melee mage when you know that most people will be wanting you in your mage role.

Now no, you don't say that, but it is sort of implied in these posts where people say that Rdm should be a more accepted melee.

It is your right to refuse any party invite that you do not want. But it is also my right as a party leader to say, "Hey, I want the Smn to be free to use their Blood Pacts and backup cure as needed, (insert name) Rdm will be the main healer" Something like that should not surprise a Rdm, especially if they are in a 2mage/4DD setup or something similar.

I'm fine not accepting a Rdm as main healer, I'd prefer Whm or Sch as main healer any day of the week. I don't think that Rdm should be shoe horned into the main healer role anymore than I think Smn should be. But I do think that the party needs to be a little more tailored to accommodate a melee Rdm. Some camps may not be as attractive as others. This may not be an issue though with all the new WoTG camps, I don't know.

However, when it comes to Exp/Merits, for it to be so common in this game, it has to be included as my personal time, otherwise the game become a job. And if that's the case, no amount of exp/hr is worth it, not with the alternatives being so plentiful at this point.

This is something I can understand and respect. I feel much the same way.


Meh, there was a few other things that I wanted to hit on, but it's late and I lost my train of thought, so I'll have to pick this up later.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Like BRD or NIN and many other jobs, lots of people just hop onto RDM because its invite gravy, not because they're actually good at it.

Ding ding ding we have a winner

I was editing that post and I seem to have accidentally deleted part of it. In the part I deleted I specified the crabs in Kuftal Tunnel, and the beetles in Garliage Citadel. Parties tend to over hunt these mobs when they first start exping on them.

Crabs in kuftal fall into that grey area we have, where we kind of stand still for melee. They are just to defensive for us to get into them real good.

GC Beetles we can whack away at pretty decently but we are also in the area of equal opportunity amongst every thing, and gear there is more melee focused.

My only issue with the bolded parts is that it'd really be better for the Rdm to be using an elemental staff at 51+ for those, which results in a loss of TP and WS/SC ability, which I view as an important thing unless you are fighting mobs with say, Amnesia or TP reducing moves. Before lvl 51, I don't remember just how much of a benefit a HQ wand is to enfeebles/nukes. It might be important, it might not, I just don't remember.

Why? do you have trouble landing enfeebles on merit mobs without them? If you do you should shore up your merits and gear. Staves become an unneeded peice of MACC, if anything it is best to enfeeble them with a wand and shield for MND and INT boosts. Staves are only overly useful on exp mobs untill you get Warlock Tabard, unless you over kill all the time.

Look at it like this. If you have 408 ACC vs a colibri that needs 410 ACC to cap on, are you going to lets say equip a PCC to cap, or bite the 1% hit rate and use something more effective to your damage because your just wasting that other 8 ACC.

Same thing works for staves.

Agreed, however that point was aimed more for Mageo since he was comparing a heavy DD class vs a Generalist. Furthermore the point about the 2x Brd or Brd/Cor was also aimed at an earlier post that Mageo had made in his melee guide about Bards giving him the +acc song for his melee build. Which takes away from the other melees in his party, boosting his performance at the sake of their performance. Party buffs should be given with the goal of boosting the abilities of the party, not the single player.

I never once said they cast it for me, I said if they do cast it it is because they see the need to on a whole. Also now with pianissimo that point is redundant and outdated since they can give a RDM ACC songs, and only a RDM. The comparisions I made to Big DD, were in terms of TP/DMG ratios and additional effects. The comparison to damage was used to exemplify that, but as usual got lost in translation. If we can do 85% of a top flight DD, that is good, but the point everyone seems to skip over when ever I talk about it is we provide 100% more support options then they do., we can supply haste, help cure, cc, enfeeble, dia all while contributing 85% of their damage. When a Big DD can swing 85% of that then a comparision will be dropped, until then I will compare the validity of inviting a Hybrid RDM to the party over a 4th Big DD.

To keep talking like Rdm is the king of DD, and spreading such information like spells don't delay melee swings (see any Drk forum for testing) that is unreasonable.

When do I say RDM is the king of DD??? All I say is we are quite capable of mixing it up. The only reason I compare a Damage:Damage vs other jobs the hit harder than us is because it is the only way to better it. Why compare yourself to something that you are equal too. Again totally taken out of context. I did originally state that however, but because you egg-heads couldn't wrap your mind around what I was talking about, I had to take it further. You can cast spells over top of your melee swings essentially performing a double action, which in turn cuts the delay down from swinging then casting (as you can not cast during animations).

Some camps may not be as attractive as others. This may not be an issue though with all the new WoTG camps, I don't know.

Some camps we shine at in terms of melee

Antican camps
Colibri Camps
Mamool Camps
Puk Camps
Spider Camps
Crawler Camps
Mandy Camps
Sky Camps (non-dancing weapons)

Camps we are not so good at

Beetles
Crabs
Dancing Weapons
Imps

The general pattern is anything that is squishy or that we can prevent from becoming thick we can do well on in terms of melee.

Anything that is thick that we can not make squishy hurts us by driving down our damage alot.

Imps just suck for everyone involved, I mean if they hurt the big 3 as much as they do, then why would we even consider them as a viable target.

-note-

Enspell builds can acctually melee anywhere except for Imps, an enspell build is comprised of minimum 300 enhancing skill, +enspell damage, +haste, +MACC, +ACC, on low delay low damage weapons (ie. ceremonial daggers).

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Antican camps
Colibri Camps
Mamool Camps
Puk Camps
Spider Camps
Crawler Camps
Mandy Camps
Sky Camps (non-dancing weapons)

Antica have Jamming Wave, which is virtually unresistable AoE Silence in an XP setting. As in I've managed to avoid it once total in an XP setting. And that was on my Bard job, which has multiple Resist Silence traits.

Spiders use Spider Web, which a RDM can't remove from himself. Not to mention the TP feeding aspect for Sickle Slash.

Mandragora like using Dream Flower, which is AoE sleep (BONUS I'll bet you your WHM or SCH or whatever isn't going to be thrilled to cast Cure on you to wake you up if it becomes obvious you're more interested in swinging a hunk of metal than casting a spell to help the party). Though to be fair, this is one of those rare instances where RDM still have enough melee accuracy and aren't too far behind the skill curve in the late 20s. Even so, do try to employ some common sense here.

Sky camps without weapons? Surely you don't mean to suggest RDMs melee statues? I'm sure the melees will greatly appreciate you being stunned by Thunder Break while they're getting pounded into hamburger. And if you suggest Flamingos for RDM melee, you need to go fish. While they have nothing special as far as WS go, sky is cluttered with magic aggros, and if you're not casting spells why are you in the party instead of someone who can deal way more damage?

This, boys and girls, is why you shouldn't listen to MrMageo.


Iemage

[Balfree]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Let me make this crystal clear. It is physically impossible for a single class to fully cover the roles of enfeebling, main healing, and support, no matter what the job class. While some parties can be on the ball enough to ignore this gap, most others will suffer the consequences, wither it is slower exp/hr, or occasional party deaths (which results in the same, but to a greater degree.)

I've done that plus landing MBs, I really don't see what the problem is.

I must say though, I'm a Hume RDM 72 that focuses on MP gear, there is probably a slight gimpness to my nukes and enfeebs, but I never felt that to be much of a problem.

I think most RDMs just get into really bad parties more often than not, which isn't my case (maybe its my timezone...), but saying you can't do those things all at the same time... I must disagree and say I can and will do that if the need arises, but USUALLY I'll alert people that it might be better to add another mage in order to prevent any problems, so far I haven't run into many to come out and say I cant do this or that. It is also true that the MP is almost always on the low side but somehow I've managed so far... in most parties Convert is up JUST as I start worrying about MP...

Am I extremely lucky? I just think of it as "very busy", but never "physically impossible".

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I've done that plus landing MBs, I really don't see what the problem is.

No you have not. I will call you out on managing a full debuff, main healing set up + magic burst on a common endgame exp/merit party.

It is physically impossible and you WILL be dropping debuffs on the fact of kill speed alone. Do not claim otherwise, because it takes a minimum of 3 seconds to cast a spell on a monster. And we have over 10 spells (Dia, Blind Poison Refresh, Haste, Cure, Regen Paralyze Slow Sleep) we would have to cast inside a 30-45 second period. It is not physically possible with the current game mechanics. You are truncating something, everyone does. If you are not, then your fights are lasting longer than 30-45's and your exp rate is not what the average late level parties would have wanted.

You will drop something that you think is lower priority the quicker the monster is killed. Depending on what you drop, the performance of your party can suffer for it. Having a secondary for maintaining important debuff functions covers this angle.

Second, if you've the MP to magic burst, you've the leeway to melee. I've posted previous arguments about the comparison to front line damage contribution to back line.


I have responses to your comments Vyuru and am very grateful for your post. However I've previous engagements today. I'll respond later on tonight.

[Raydeus]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

It is not physically possible with the current game mechanics. You are truncating something, everyone does. If you are not, then your fights are lasting longer than 30-45's and your exp rate is not what the average late level parties would have wanted.

This.


But, giving Mageo the benefit of the doubt a video of him performing the way he says he does would help.

Heck he can become the Avesta of Melee RDMs in xp parties everywhere! \(^-^)/