RDM Melee? Whered they go?

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

But much like it is the personal experiences of many here that front line RDM's perform terribly, I have yet to meet a party of 4 dds without at least one being on the level of a Hasso-Bankai-Samurai, or a Ninja who's forgotten how to tank, or some other sort of near-catastrophic folly in the melee line that has ruined the prospect of back-lining in parties on RDM for me.

QFT

[Yellow Mage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

elemental crutches,

If for nothing else, I thanked you for this. XD

[Electricity Gone Human]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

No ones saying Rdm should never melee, just that it has it's time and place.

Agreed, yet it tragically translates to "RDM should never melee" among uptight elitists.

[Firewind]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Unfortunately when people say a job should occasionally do something it translated to "Should never, ever, ever, EVER do it". WAR can tank if it has NIN or BLU subbed and is great at emergency tanking yet people think that is should only ever DD and nothing more. SAM has the VIT and HP to do the same thing. RNG can easily kite links using Bloody Bolts yet they get cussed out if they even think of it. THF is a devistating DD but only ever seems to get party invites to TA a NIN anymore. WHM and RDM are both able to cause considerable damage in melee yet we both get yelled out for even looking at anything not a Light or Dark staff.

And to be honest RDM not is supposed to be better at melee then the specialised classes. If we go to the whole Jack of all Trades thing then RDM is supposed to be good at it but not the best at it. I mean RDM can quite easily be outfitted to suit a needed role in a party. They are not as effective as a WAR at DDing or a BLM at nuking but they CAN do any role assigned to them. Find any other jobs that can easily slot itself into any role that a party needs. That is why I like having RDMs in a party, a job that can fill in a missing party role and quickly fill in another in an emergency is highly useful.

The problem is that the game puts heavy emphasis on specialists so when you are presented with a generalist people always pidgeon-hole them into a role that they are argubally most efficient at.

Stuff that makes a stupidly long quote

This is why I love PLD tanksover NIN tanks in ToaU areas. I can actually keep up with the party MP pool-wise. It's even more fun with a RDM in the party because we usually try to see what it will take to tear hate off a PLD. The typical pickup game with a NIN tank against birds usually goes like this:

Haste
Regen
Why do I have hate already? MND gear, Stoneskin, Regen self
Shadows down and he's about to die, Cure III
Ugh his Utsu: Ni recast was too low so he could only put up Ichi
-Emnity macro, Cure IV, Regen, default gear macro
Ichi wore already?, Cure IV
Haste wore on him, better recast
Great hate is on me, MND gear + Stoneskin
It's still on me, Stoneskin, blink, aquaveil
Yeap I'm gonna die, Stoneskin, blink, aquaveil
Yag drink
Wow this guy hasn't voked or put shadows up for at least a minute, Stoneskin, blink, aquaveil
Another Yag drink
Getting on two minutes now, Stoneskin, blink, aquaveil
Another Yag drink
3 minutes, I'm running out of MP keeping stoneskin and blink up against these things...
Super Ether, yag drink, earth staff
So I am the tank now?
*Several minutes later* Is this guy even bothering to tank now?
Out of MP. *gets pecked to death*
<I'm Sorry I'm sleepy>
Cancel RR and HP back to WG
*Sardia has left the party*
/blist add Really bad NIN
/anon
*Some time later* rest of the party: That NIN left if you want back into the party.
/anon
*Synths some Cookies and Yag Drinks*
Joy!

I think it's really sad when the WHM can outtank a NIN. Sure he was probably the worst one I've come accross but seriously, isn't it supposed to be the RDM's job to tank things via pure attrition? I think I may have just stole the RDM's EG job here

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

In the levels where HQ wands may or may not assist, the resistance rate of monsters to status effects and nukes are so low that it becomes a non-factor. Again, up to and through your 40's you don't see such a terrible resist rate, or a real 'drop' in RDM melee until 50, where the job you sub becomes a major factor in your performance.

Mamool Ja spellcasters would like a word with you. Try and Silence one without an elemental staff. And enfeebles pre-75 without staves bounce like rubber unless you're underhunting even with capped skills.

As for nukes... RDM nukes are only vaguely consistent even with a staff. Take that away and you might as well just not bother casting, as you're going to get significant resists even on weak elements.

As far as the elemental crutches, I'll admit that they're sushi for mages, however there not absolutely necessary, especially in the contexts I've said before. (Staticing with a WHM.) Teamwork in both parts will lead to a smoother performance than putting all of your fruit in a single basket, and I'll explain why later.

I don't see how arguing the context of melee RDM is extensible from the viewpoint of a static party with a WHM. There's not that many WHM players, period, and of those, many are already well past the levelling stages.

While it's true that a RDM + WHM backline does offer the RDM some more leeway regarding what they're doing, you're just using the WHM as a crutch at that point - doing suboptimal activities like melee or nuking in an effort to not be totally superfluous aside from casting the occasional Refresh.

In the case of a RDM in the front line, or any generalist, a RDM takes that spot a 4th damage dealer would have been in. So while it's more than say a 2 support 3 dd 1 healer party would have had, if you were going to invite a 4th DD, obviously that second support job wasn't there to begin with.

Mmm.. no.

The point is that DDx4 + caster RDM + Support is a viable party setup (not optimal, but viable), particularly if one of those DDs is a Paladin. DDx4 + Melee RDM + Support is not viable under pretty much any circumstances except for weird things like Campaign, even if one of the DDs is a Paladin.

By the time you get to that point, you're already inviting a hybrid into your party, and you're just arguing semantics. You don't know what the circumstances of the individual party will be until you're actually in the party.

For example, if the healer class was a WHM, the haste cycle would be split as would the curing load. Advantage of this is that spells land on the mob faster depending on what's being split between the two mages, and the gradual HP recovery is larger than if you had your RDM in the back line.

Splitting healing duties doesn't do anything except balance MP loads for purposes of recovery over time (i.e. Refresh/Ballad/Evoker's Roll). In the context of RDM, this is only necessary when RDMs don't have the necessary MP flow to support the party on their own.

Devotion + Convert means a RDM has quite a MP pool to play with, and double refresh (ballad, refresh) for both means that magic bursting is an option for both, not just one.

Magic bursting what on where? At level 75? Things don't live long enough in XP parties at 75 for this to be a consideration.

Example number 2: A scholar takes the back line for the Red Mage, and AoE's stoneskin and Phalanx. The damage received level drops to almost 0, so much that the RDM's costs to support cure is minimal, more than enough to take on a full haste cycle himself with no difficulty. As refresh yeilds more than Sublimation, the Scholar has more inflowing MP and will have no difficulties AoEing an enspell for the entire party: You now have Haste+Enspell consistent on a party, and there's still left over MP for debuffs and magic bursts. (And the Scholar nukes harder than a rdm by far.)

Refresh doesn't offer that much tangibly more MP to a Scholar. With a Mortarboard, they get 3MP/tick from Sublimation, so really the only difference is the slip damage and 30 second cooldown on the JA. A Scholar operates just fine off of Sublimation and Ballad/Evoker's, having a RDM around is a minimalist luxury at best.

You are grossly over-estimating what a RDM does for a Scholar (which is very close to nothing in an XP party setup).

The advantage both of these situations have over a X4DD situation is that you've got the awareness of 3 people on the look out for sudden party changes. Granted, Red Mage should be the first one to react as his MP is the 'extra pool' in the group, so your puller and your healer are not interrupted from their tasks. This is the entire point of a rdm in front or back line is to sever as a catalyst. This really isn't something it can do too well in the back line in spite of people saying otherwise.

I don't think anyone would argue that DDx4 is the most stable or safe setup, but it's still functional - and more importantly, easily constructed.

I fail to see your point about melee RDMs somehow being more able to focus on party dynamics than caster RDMs. A "pink mage" is constantly keeping tabs on the party, and doing the typical spell cycle juggling act when there aren't other pressing issues. It's not a question of "wow I have to interrupt my cycle to deal with an emergency" - quite the opposite.

This last bit is, in fact, the major strike against melee RDMs. Most are too busy looking at their damage numbers and staring at their TP (read: stroking e-peen) to instantly react when someone takes damage or a sleep attempt fails.

If you cut it down to 1 support, 1 healer, typically that 1 support job is puller and sleeper, so when something goes wrong, one of your key backbone classes has to pull away from their critical primary job to resolve the situation ,be it the puller not pulling, or the healer not healing. While this sort of flexing may be ok for a bird camp, when you're pulling skoffins and mamools, that is a potentially fatal problem.

I've done DDx4 + BRD + RDM at Mamool Ja Staging Point before. It's not perfect, not because of anything inherently wrong with the party flow, but rather just an insufficient amount of pulling. MJSP is best tackled with two pullers, as there are many, many spawns, and links are common. Aside from that, though, there aren't too many issues. Things tend to die a little faster with more damage, so your only real dealbreaker for chains is AoE Paralyze from a Skoffin.

DDx4 + Support + caster RDM works better in other circumstances (troll parties, sky weapons/statues camps, etc.). I'd include Colibri camps in this definition, but I think a party full of paraplegic nuns could kill Colibri and chain them.

Again, which hybrid job you choose to put in instead of a 4th DD, is a semantics argument, each offer something unique in each situation. If you're completely adamant against a front line RDM, then yes, sure, invite a DD PLD, or a Dancer first. But note that something like that is also subject to availability and in as sense, yes, I'm pushing for more acceptance of a Generalist style Rdm for those situations.

I would generally prefer both PLD and DNC over RDM in the nebulous 4th melee spot, and as both DNC and PLD aren't as much in high demand, the chances of being turned down are far lower.

I would, however, invite a RDM/DNC as a "4th melee", particularly if they're using Joyeuse.

In the big picture it's a rather small niche, but the benefits are there, both the principle and the practical of it is sound, and it promotes job variability.

Melee RDM is functional in the sense that at 70+ you've got enough gear and options available to make it work under specific circumstances, but it still underperforms when compared to other relatively common jobs in similar roles, and underperforms in an absolute sense when compared to caster RDMs as far as maximum party potential.

We fall back on this critical point on people with different views of the game.

With level sync and all the other updates there is simply no reason why you can't make this sort of partying the norm, finding friends that agree with your playstyle and expectations, and that will appreciate the concept and performances you are offering.

I for one am not trying to pass it off for more than what it is. A front line Rdm at it's peak of Melee Performance will not do much more than point out which damage dealers are falling behind in performance/gear, etc by out-damage dealing them. That's at their peak, mind you. With everyone on the ball they're likely going to be well out damaged, but still within acceptable areas.

Fair enough.

As far as the bringing in the healer to fill the role a RDM steps away from? That's no different than filling in the healer's position when having a second bard or corsair, and therefore a non-issue. If you happen-stance among a quartet of zen-level melee's that can perfectly balance hate and not take additional damage, then fine.

But much like it is the personal experiences of many here that front line RDM's perform terribly, I have yet to meet a party of 4 dds without at least one being on the level of a Hasso-Bankai-Samurai, or a Ninja who's forgotten how to tank, or some other sort of near-catastrophic folly in the melee line that has ruined the prospect of back-lining in parties on RDM for me.

There's a difference here, though. A half-baked melee is not going to ruin party dynamics to the point of unplayability. You might earn a little less XP over time, but you'll still earn it.

Getting a fumbling melee RDM instead of a skillful player (caster or otherwise), is devastating to a party.

It's not that doing melee is necessarily bad for RDM. It's more that the bad players are the ones who tend to prefer to melee, and the rare competent player who can do all of the above is so vastly outnumbered by the bad ones that it's almost a statistical certainty that the party dynamics will suck lemons.


Icemage

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

It's not that doing melee is necessarily bad for RDM. It's more that the bad players are the ones who tend to prefer to melee, and the rare competent player who can do all of the above is so vastly outnumbered by the bad ones that it's almost a statistical certainty that the party dynamics will suck lemons.

Exactly. 1% of melee rdms are worth partying with, the other 99% ruin it for them. I truly applaude them and wish them the best. Does it make me want to risk 99 out of 100 parties? Absolutely not.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Mamool Ja spellcasters would like a word with you. Try and Silence one without an elemental staff. And enfeebles pre-75 without staves bounce like rubber unless you're underhunting even with capped skills.

Only if you're foolish enough to conflict elements, which is really hard to do if you're camping the right mobs.

There's a very unlikley chance your Paralyze is going to bounce off a puk with capped gear, for example, but trying to cast silence on an Imp is a pain in the ass even with an elemental staff.

That said, have you tried it recently? I was under the impression Icemage that you had RDM to 75 before ToAU was even out. I was in my 60's when the change was made, and the landing rate there was far easier than say Boyhada tree.

Now you refer to Mamool Ja spellcasters. To that I say, learn to pick your battles. In a situation, I'd stick to my heavily merited Para II, and tell the bard that when they do pull casters to make sure Wind Theody is on them. Then if you're overly concerned on landing it on them, you've got a wealth of non-weapon Mag-Acc equipment you can gear in, on top of a possibly landed debuff.


Another pointed advantage in having a RDM + Backline is that you've got 2 attempts per spell window on important debuffs such as that, and at least one of you will have a staff on. Overkill, or insurance? Your call to make.

As for nukes... RDM nukes are only vaguely consistent even with a staff. Take that away and you might as well just not bother casting, as you're going to get significant resists even on weak elements.

Again with the idea that stacking +MAB is the way to go. How many years now has SE tried to cram the concept of Magical Accuracy on a Red Mage? I'll be the first to admit that our nuking performance is thrid rate, but learning to push for less resists over higher capped damage can throw that little gem out for a reality-check. It takes a little legwork with good pieces of gear, but considering the fact that macroing in (even in ligitmate macros) gear is a tad easier than it was before, swapping isn't too much of an issue there.

However, admittingly, as a front line RDM, I don't nuke often. It's MP costly even when I'm on the back line and unless you've got the dedicated gear set for it can be a pain in the ass. I do occasionally MB with a smaller nuke if I spot a skillchain going off and the monster surviving, more on that later though.

I don't see how arguing the context of melee RDM is extensible from the viewpoint of a static party with a WHM. There's not that many WHM players, period, and of those, many are already well past the levelling stages.

While it's true that a RDM + WHM backline does offer the RDM some more leeway regarding what they're doing, you're just using the WHM as a crutch at that point - doing suboptimal activities like melee or nuking in an effort to not be totally superfluous aside from casting the occasional Refresh.

I could argue that all parties use Bard or Corsair as a crutch, so that they can almost ignore the concept of a tank, by your logic.

Having a back-line support, be it White Mage, Scholar, or even Summoner (though I don't encourage bottle-necking that job class) widens the play style variety in therms of jobs, while maintaining both party performance and a higher level of party safety. In counter, I would call the current haste/refresh whoring state of RDM in the back line more Superfluous than a frontline Rdm, specifically in Colibri parties.

It doesn't take 30mil in gear to deal 14% damage for a party,
which the party will still likely get from haste anyways. And as your skill/gear develops you're going to steadily push the 20% damage marker, which is double march right there. That's about what you'd get second bard, with some additional cures. So you'd have to weigh in on wiether or not that 4th DD can accomplish both those angles, though, your DD PLD can help with filling part of that.

As far as population of white mages and other healer classes. Yes, they're at higher levels, that's a given, but that's also what Level Sync is for. Perhaps it's a Sever difference thing, but Odin doesn't seem to be short of any actual healer classes, just none of them are actually seeking. You'll see 2-3 WHM and 3-4 Rdm in any given campaign fight. I personally speak from the advantage of living with one white mage, and being personal friends with a number of others.

Am I lucky? I don't think so. I just don't believe they like being tossed around and underapricated. Having done the healing bit as far as I could as RDM, I understand that.

So if you're knowing one personally, which isn't all too difficult even in a social shell, you can offer them that party slot respectfully. If it works out well then you've got the ability to perhaps make a static with them.

Mmm.. no.

The point is that DDx4 + caster RDM + Support is a viable party setup (not optimal, but viable), particularly if one of those DDs is a Paladin. DDx4 + Melee RDM + Support is not viable under pretty much any circumstances except for weird things like Campaign, even if one of the DDs is a Paladin.

Are you reading my posts or glancing over?

I never said 4DD + Melee RDM was good. If you're trying to argue that it's the only way you can get a RDM to justify moving up to the front lines then you're just trying to set up an argument trap. I don't encourage it, at least not under normal party dynamics.

If we're going into parties where you're pushing for 5 melees, then you might as well skip out on some of your more heavy damage dealers and invite things like your DD pld and DD WHM, and forgo the back-line all together. How successful THAT would be however, I don't know. Currently I do something similar Nyzul Isle, but that's a special case and the party is specifically design for that.

I said the RDM was to take the place of that 4DD, essentially competing with your "DD PLD" in a party slot. It's your personal decision wither or not you wish to invite the paladin or the white mage to your party. But it seems to me like your inviting the RDM either way.

Splitting healing duties doesn't do anything except balance MP loads for purposes of recovery over time (i.e. Refresh/Ballad/Evoker's Roll). In the context of RDM, this is only necessary when RDMs don't have the necessary MP flow to support the party on their own.

That statement is of course overlooking both your DD Pld and your second bard completely.

In almost every successful endgame party, there is some sort of healing assistance. Be it that your second bard subs white mage, or you've got a PLD in the party tossing out cures and taking hate when necessary.

Having a RDM in the front lines with a back-line healer further streamlines this, and is something your "DD PLD" cannot do. It's not a matter of "A Red Mage can't handle the MP load" More than easing the load for other classes. What you're doing implies belitteling the performance of a front line rdm soley to justify ridding other classes such as WHM from that position in a party.

What you're typing here translates as to:

"Well, the only reason a RDM would need any sort of secondary MP pool is because he dosen't have the right merits/gear to back it up, therefore you should not invite a whm at all and shove the RDM in the back line, because if a non-specified RDM can't do it, then obviously a WHM can't either."

I am staunchly against that mentality and prefer to support inviting MORE of these otherwise neglected classes to the party. This is part of the reason why I encourage Red Mage in the front lines as it further opens up these options.

Magic bursting what on where? At level 75? Things don't live long enough in XP parties at 75 for this to be a consideration.

Completely dependent on your camp and set up. Trolls, if not Mamools have a hefty change of surviving a tier 3 skillchain even when made by a pair of DDs if it was opened with them, Skoffin's aren't much to laugh at either. A single slip of a hit from any multi-hit WS can make that one survive too. This is where your "Free Nuking Justification" came in when you're trying to save a chain. Same policy here, except now you have two sets of eyes keeping track of the skillchains that go off, one of them can actually influence one.

Refresh doesn't offer that much tangibly more MP to a Scholar. With a Mortarboard, they get 3MP/tick from Sublimation, so really the only difference is the slip damage and 30 second cooldown on the JA. A Scholar operates just fine off of Sublimation and Ballad/Evoker's, having a RDM around is a minimalist luxury at best.

You are grossly over-estimating what a RDM does for a Scholar (which is very close to nothing in an XP party setup).

And I think you're letting your bias grossly under-estimate the combination capabilities. As you've not regarded anything else as far as to benefits of pairing these two jobs.

Just because Refresh and Sublimation conflict, does not mean they have nothing to offer the party as a pair.

I don't think anyone would argue that DDx4 is the most stable or safe setup, but it's still functional - and more importantly, easily constructed.

And just as easily disbanded, from my experiences. If a Red Mage goes off to heal for this set up, have my condolences. Even when I was accepting merit invites, I would always insist on at least a "DD PLD" or a Dancer in the party. I refused to be the only one that has to deal with that hbSAM when he rears that ugly head of his.

I fail to see your point about melee RDMs somehow being more able to focus on party dynamics than caster RDMs. A "pink mage" is constantly keeping tabs on the party, and doing the typical spell cycle juggling act when there aren't other pressing issues. It's not a question of "wow I have to interrupt my cycle to deal with an emergency" - quite the opposite.

This last bit is, in fact, the major strike against melee RDMs. Most are too busy looking at their damage numbers and staring at their TP (read: stroking e-peen) to instantly react when someone takes damage or a sleep attempt fails.

That's not even a Minor strike. That's more on the matter of player focus than job focus, and again, taking a socially constructed stigma as the norm instead of attempting to re-establish a real sample base.

Another issue of course is communication. Keeping it up until both the front line rdm and the back up element know what's being delegated where as far as who to haste, what debuffs to handle on what mob, etc. is an important point. Of course, all of this can again be bypassed by knowing your back-line mage and having experienced with them often, another advantage of level syncing and staticing.

I do, however see your point in that perhaps if a dedicated Damage Dealer were to take up a Front Line RDM with not other experience, they may loose focus, however someone who's played RDM for a while, especially if he's practiced in working in the front lines will probably be a lot more aware. If nothing else, if you know the person, you can always recommend training them campaign, and encouraging them to multitask.

I for one am known in situations that allow it to keep at least one monster on sleep, while assisting in killing another, while Dia III-ing a third being killed by another group, and then turn around to cure the tank holding the one we're fighting. I can go on a tangent how I love Campaign because it allows me to play RDM in such a way that it can turn the tables of a fight in our favor rather easily.

I just wish I could get more RDM's to play that way.

I've done DDx4 + BRD + RDM at Mamool Ja Staging Point before..

Personal experiences are indeed nice examples to post for arguments, but should I provide the post on my experience in a party with a Front Line RDM to counter?

If I were to play the same social game as often many Front Line nay-sayers do, I can go and pick out what was right/wrong, or how that particular party was an exception, etc. That would be about the same arguments I got back from posting such.

I would generally prefer both PLD and DNC over RDM in the nebulous 4th melee spot, and as both DNC and PLD aren't as much in high demand, the chances of being turned down are far lower.

That's a personal choice and I won't argue with that. I for one encourage the use of these classes and often end up small partying or pairing with one or the other just to have a good time. In a party context, having them in the same party as me would probably constitute that no-backline party that was previously mentioned. As I'm currently retired from pick-up merit parties my experience in that particular set up is minimal, though, it might be interesting to try it out just for kicks.

I would, however, invite a RDM/DNC as a "4th melee", particularly if they're using Joyeuse.

I'd like to explore this function a bit more, it does have it's difficulties (like 15 second erases an it's effect on your TP based cure.) However currently I'm of the opinion that other front line strategies are a better contribution.

Melee RDM is functional in the sense that at 70+ you've got enough gear and options available to make it work under specific circumstances, but it still underperforms when compared to other relatively common jobs in similar roles, and underperforms in an absolute sense when compared to caster RDMs as far as maximum party potential.

I dissagree, and have listed my arguments why.

To make a general statment to counter a general statment. I beleive that the reason for your opinion stems from the failure to properly utalize the front line red mage role. Working within it's proper contexts, I beleive that it can be greater benefit than simply shoving it in the back line and having it function like a white mage. I believe a Red Mage looses a great deal of their ability to function to their potential in merit parties for several reasons, and that moving them to the front lines can be a solution that has less of an impact on the current party dynamic, as increasing the difficulty of monster to the point of needing consistent and lasting debuffs would be viewed negatively by the public.

I believe Rdms work much like it did in it's previous incarnations in console games, in that during exp/merit grinds it can contribute via melee and use it's MP to streamline the process from the front line. And during emergency situations and boss fights, its magic can be push to its fullest at the sacrifice of it's melee performance.

As far as it's performance in comparison to those in 'like roles' by which I assume you mean hybrid roles. I would love to see a company/joy PLD face up against a blau/joy RDM, just to see where those differences really lie. Again, Pld really suffers in terms of versatility, but has a damage advantage, but I'd like to see exactly where those lines lie.

As far as Dancer goes, I'd say to be fair we should wait on that till they have their tier 2 merits, and relic armor.

Fair enough.

Good, now let me ask you how many melees do you think are actually on the ball in merit parties? I've said this as a joke before, but sadly it often ends up serious.

"There's 4 melees and 2 casters, what do you think are the chances that the party's problem happened on the caster side?"

There's a difference here, though. A half-baked melee is not going to ruin party dynamics to the point of unplayability. You might earn a little less XP over time, but you'll still earn it.

Getting a fumbling melee RDM instead of a skillful player (caster or otherwise), is devastating to a party.

No more so than getting a melee class that is just as fumbling. I'd have to say you're schewing your perspective a little to exxadurate the follys of a front line rdm. A poor melee can be just as disastrous, especially if you don't pick him out and kick him out right away.

I daresay that a poor RDM melee is easier to pick out than a poor dedicated DD. A front line RDM that knows his stuff will have made the investment in gear knowing the difficulty he is going to have, where as one who doesn't will try to justify melee in INT rings.

A Melee who doesn't know how to balance his hate or keep up his defenses can look exactly like any other melee, or even look very well geared, yet still drain your entire MP pool trying to cure him, which then results in a half to full party wipe due to his recklessness, and your efforts to keeping him alive.

It's not that doing melee is necessarily bad for RDM. It's more that the bad players are the ones who tend to prefer to melee, and the rare competent player who can do all of the above is so vastly outnumbered by the bad ones that it's almost a statistical certainty that the party dynamics will suck lemons.

I don't know if that's necessarily true at this point in the game, there's a lot of uncertainty on how the player dynamics are going to sort out over the next several months due to level sync, soloing options and the continuation of campaign.

There's not a clear guideline specifically for RDMs that they can follow to good performance in the front line, but you can still tell when someone's giving a real effort in trying to make it work. With all this negativity, those who are dedicated to this end up feeling bitter and spiteful, and spend less time looking up the necessary information to improve performance.

Therefore, it's been my long-term efforts to change the conversational tone of such discussions like these, and I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me respectfully on this.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

<stuff>

I had a 10 page response typed up, but to avoid boring everyone to tears I'll summarize.

RDM Melee is not a "DD". It's a melee RDM. Minimal to mediocre melee damage, limited MP resources (much of it spoken for), and heavily dependent on the rest of the back line.

A caster RDM has the option of constructing any number of different, but functional party configurations. Melee RDM is much more restrictive, and not in a good way.

It would be a point if there were a case where meleeing as RDM actually performed better than casting full time, but that situation simply does not arise in an XP party at a any level above 35.

But now we've come full circle to why anyone would want a melee RDM instead of a full caster in that same slot. If the party "needs" your 15% damage as a 4th frontliner to function, then your problem is lackluster melees, and it generally won't function well regardless. If it doesn't "need" your damage because the melees are up to snuff, why on earth does the party need your damage and sacrifice the extra security of having a full time caster there?

I'm sure there's some thin line in between those two cases where you have a party with mediocre melees that becomes somewhat functional with an excellently geared RDM tacked into the mix, but that line is very, very thin.

What you're typing here translates as to:

"Well, the only reason a RDM would need any sort of secondary MP pool is because he dosen't have the right merits/gear to back it up, therefore you should not invite a whm at all and shove the RDM in the back line, because if a non-specified RDM can't do it, then obviously a WHM can't either."

I am staunchly against that mentality and prefer to support inviting MORE of these otherwise neglected classes to the party. This is part of the reason why I encourage Red Mage in the front lines as it further opens up these options.

You think I'm being hostile to WHM, but it's honestly not true. I was a 75 WHM long before I ever picked up RDM, so I have a different perspective on this than you do, I suspect. I still consider WHM to be my primary job, and it's the job I bring most often to endgame events.

I'll make it plain and simple:

WHM don't have the tools to hold down a merit party without quite a lot of help. Their dependence on time spent resting is their downfall.

My WHM 75 has very, very good gear - universally superior to my gear on RDM - and yet I actively avoid meriting on WHM because my RDM out-earns my WHM in every outing. I can manage at most 20K limit points per hour on WHM. I manage 25K+ on RDM on a good day, almost 30K per hour at times if the party is firing on all pistons. It has nothing to do with my playing style, and everything to do with what widgets I personally have to deal with problem situations on each job, and for that my RDM job wins every single time, having access to over twice as much MP over time as my WHM, and more skills to back them up. That extra MP is an insurmountable advantage.

Nowhere have I said that WHM should stay out of merit parties, or that Melee RDM aren't workable in specific circumstances. But that's a totally different animal to what you (and some of the other people in this thread) are trying to say, which is to suggest that a melee RDM is more or less globally equal to a casting RDM in party potential in an XP/merit situation.

It just is not true, and repeating it like a mantra does not make it so.


Icemage

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

You would have done better off with the 10 page argumet Icemage. At this point, you're just as guilty as you accuse me of, repeating Mantra as if trying to make it true.

So allow me to provide you with a shining example of that glorious 1%, the counter to all of your 'Minimal to mediocre melee damage', and the inspiration on my own personal works to prove the RDM back in its place in the front lines.

Say hello to Starfox, (Your Avesta of RDM front lining IMHO.)


Here's his TP Gear set.

Here's one of his posted Parses.

Oh I know what you're thinking at this time, anyone can post up a false parser.

Hell, even I clashed with Starfox a few times, disbelieving him.

However, after crossing paths with him again and agian, I began to notice how much he's done his bookwork on multiple aspects of the subject.

I kept an ear on some of the things he was doing with the combination. And began to try to PM him for advise and some tips as to how to develop myself.

After having transferred to Odin and discovering that he was on the server I had the pleasure of joining in a merit party with his RDM/NIN myself. Needless to say I was more than impressed, I was en-spired. (Get it?)

By the way, in the number of links I've just posted, those threads contain about a month's worth of reading meterial on any Red Mage wanting to really know and weigh in on the pros and cons to a front line RDM. You'll even see how my opinion has changed and developed over that time as I've begun to learn more about the subject.

I heavily recommend it, especially to you, Icemage. If you're still convinced that your 10 page post would to much to counter all of it, go right ahead and continue.

As far as my own personal progress, I'm right about the accuracy level I should be, and will need to expriment around with ws/tp gear to finalize a 'low end gear' stragity to my research. I'm actually currently saving for a Blau, but if anyone on Odin is willing to give it a challenge or a shot, I think I can go ahead without it and see if my projected needed improvements are right or not.

I'm also working on a low level mule who's to be my guinna pig moving up, but of course, Gil and time is some of the larger factors in keeping me slowed down.

I've had fun in this conversation but at this point I beleive I'm finished.

I've left enough source in this post to let people mull on for a while. For me personally, I'm starting to hear repeat-arguments that simply aren't true in the face of the educated and dedicated, and think it's best to leave people to their individual beliefs for the time being while I collect more personal data to back up publicly what I've already confirmed for myself. It's far better than watch a conversation degrade into insults and accusations of falsehoods.

I'd rather continue to put my money where my mouth is and prove it.

After that, it's up to each individual player and party to judge the performance and rate it's value to a party. It's your free will and right to agree or disagree, and I expect no profound change in the public opinion. I would have to leave such things to SE to make a public display of 'improvement' the community by creating a means to make this method easier for the laymen.

Until such a time, I'm going to keep pushing to improve my own attempts to emulate Starfox's methodry as it appeals most to me as a Red Mage, in addition to other pursuits.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I've had some encounters with Starfox, one of them being a Dynamis-Bastok I guested on. He came RDM melee and I was COR/DNC.

Gearing COR/DNC is exactly the same as gearing melee COR/RNG. Nothing changes in stats. And amazingly, its the same stuff a RDM has access to, san AF Feet and Head, obviously.

For the situations Starfox was going into, there wasn't much of a need for loads of accuracy gear, but I do find it odd that he favors Morrigan's over Paluwhan body for melee. Were I to go /RNG in this situation, I'd still have a sizeable +22 accuracy before equipping anything from two accuracy bonus traits.

And honestly, your general dynamis city mobs don't last that long, so if you're dual wielding BD and Joyeuse, you're actually gaining TP slower than you would just single-wielding Joyeuse. I realize Joyeuse is there to feed BD for Eviceration, but RDM/NINs love to gloss over that ugly little truth just like COR/NINs do.

Even though I was using my TP to land Steps and cure on occassion, I'm pretty sure I got to Slug Shot more often than he got to use Eviceration. Spellcasting happens to slow melee down longer than /DNC cures or steps do.

Honestly, given that situation, I think I was better off /RNG and he was better off playing RDM backline, the change to performance was only marginal for us both and /DNC was probably holding me back more than it was actually helping. Glad I did go /DNC though, because our PT's WHM decided to AFK the last, oh, two hours of the run. Also was fortunate to have SAMs in the PT, so that gave me the excuse to SAM Roll to keep my TP up rather nicely.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

<more stuff>

(1) Colibri camp. You can be horribly geared against these things and still chain them somewhat.

(2) Colibri are weak to piercing damage. It's not surprising that an exceptionally equipped RDM using pointy weapons is going to outdamage a mediocre Samurai, if for no other reason than the 25% piercing damage bonus.

(3) This is an old pic, but it sort of proves my point.



Chain 30s version chain 200s. Which one is more effective, hm?

P.S. The 3 DDs in the above pic are all Tarutaru; 2 Warriors and a Monk. And we still managed 200+ chains.


Icemage

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

RDM x6 TP party { You can have this } .... Melee RDM's dream come true, yay =P

... or as Callisto [corrected] in one of the old RDM melee thread: RDM x5 + BRD

(I'm sorry... hard to resist posting this....)

/em cast raise on the dead-horse... and let us resume the beating ... Orz

[Tek(Selphiie)]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

it's up to each individual player and party to judge the performance and rate it's value to a party. It's your free will and right to agree or disagree, and I expect no profound change in the public opinion.

I've seen so much debate on RDM melee on countless FFXI forums, and even my friends RL, for three years my RL friends have had back and forths, throwing numbers, situations. I remember a night in taco bell where they took like two hours discussing it. I just stepped in and said, "Guys, there are times where RDM can melee, and there are times when they can't, and there are times that even though they know they can't they will, its not up to you guys arguing, even if you both agree on something, it won't change anything or the whole community."

I try to tell them: "No one is going to win, just give it up, both of you (Both sides of the argument) have valid points and both sides are stubborn as mules and won't give up their opinions."

You can spend months and years throwing out numbers, stats, parses, and screenshots, but in the end, people will stick with their opinion. In the end, it doesn't even matter (Not a Linkin Park reference). It is really up to the individual player. Even if everyone on the forum agrees on one side, will that really make any difference? Not really.

Although I'm not sure if winning the argument on the topic of RDM melee on an online MMORPG forum will look good on your resume for rl jobs lol.

[Firewind]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Yes but winning an internet argument is everything to some people

[Telera]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I have to second what Tek's saying here. (and be glad no one had a spasm over you saying to just let it be, someone managed to take offense at me saying the same thing on the LotRO Eurpoe forums. Fucking lore-whores.)

There are times and places where they can, times where maybe it's not such a good idea, and all the inbetweens. Me, personally, I don't care if the Red Mage melees so long as he can just keep refresh on me every now and again. I don't even care if he manages to cast it as soon as it wears, just so long as it gets back on in a minute or two. I'm really not that demanding, I really don't give a damn enough to get worked up over it. I've had to handle things without Refreshers plenty of times. They help immensely, but I've learned to do my job fine without. And I always feel awkward when the RDM apologizes every time he forgets to Refresh me. I had one that did that once and I finally sent him a tell saying not to worry about it, that I really wasn't gonna get upset, that I wasn't like some people he may have partied with that scream ZZZZ the second sleep hits even though you're already in the process of casting Curaga -_-.

I'm a summoner, so I can handle the major Haste-ing if needed. In fact I have been invited just for that for two parties now and it baffled me a bit, seeing as that never used to happen.

Leader>> {Party} {Do you need it?} {Hastega} {Yes, please.}

And aside from back up curing as needed, (as we had WHM in both instances) all they wanted of me was Hastega. Which saved the WHM time I suppose and MP. So they focused more on the curing, I kept Hastega up, and if the stupid Imp (hate hate hate) went -aga happy, I'd either throw out HRII or Cure III's so the WHM didn't drain himself dry rectifying the situation. In fact we did very well exp wise both times. Piles and piles of it using that method.

So if you're on Ifrit and wanna Melee RDM and you're in a party that I or my friends build, be my guest. I'm the last person in the world who's going to care. Really, I have more pressing concerns in life.