RDM Melee? Whered they go?

[Balfree]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Meh, i completely disagree.

Ok so it might be impossible to cast every spell in that span of time, but why would you cast a debuff on a mob that's gonna die in 10 seconds? Thats not being a debuffer, thats being innefficient, i dont think a debuffer has to cast every single debuff.

Naturally I'm not casting all the debuffs ingame and keeping everyone in the 100% HP and doing a completely flawless job, but it is not physically impossible to do the main healer+debuffer+buffer role, I'm pretty sure. If a fight lasts 30-45 seconds with all the debuffs, will dropping, for example Dia or Slow hinder the party that much? If anyone's noticing, i'm pretty sorry for them ;P but if they are and they complain, ill show them this thread, from now on. I dont feel a "debuffer" has to cast all his debuffs, I feel he has to keep some debuffs on a mob, giving priority to those he thinks more important to a fight, for example casting Dia on a mob that has inproper physical defense, the DoT effect is retarded too, so why cast it? Leave it for longer fights where it might make a more noticeable difference.

It really depends on the party setup though. A single BLU will own the damn Imps in very little time for example, making things go by really fast, hence the not impossibile remark, I mean damn, I duo with one of my friends all the time and they don't last longer than a minute, and i just sit back and relax and toss him a cure and refresh once in a while, not even debuffing. I'm not trying to say i'm teh uber bestest RDM out there, i'm pretty sure i've just gotten lucky if what all of you are being completely sure of what youre saying... but i know for sure i've done all those tasks, i had a static from 37 to 60 and i was the only mage, and this was even before we had blue mages or uber refreshed paladins and all the DD buffs and what have you, and then after the static broke up, my rdm leveling came to a screeching halt, only joining parties with people i knew were good or that i knew from the LS or other. Truth be told, not many opportunities were had to land MBs, and i cant say i've tried to cover that role but it has happened.

Funny story too, i had a party where i was a main healer doing Imps, the nasty things have aoe silence, i was silenaing everyone, even people who couldnt cast spells, i was so into it i lost track of who was whom, i did a poor job that time landing buffs, i was just angry at the constant silencing that i was finally able to start casting silena just as the mob was using the move, i only found out i was casting silena on everyone when the party broke up and someone said "thanks for the silena even though i dont cast spells" or something along those lines.

If you play your cards right, leave the cure bombing for the tank only and maybe a subtank, heal the others slowly and cast your buffs between fights and throw your debuffs whenever possible, it isnt impossible, i still dont see the big deal, meh, maybe the parties are going slow for some people's standarts... i never really complained. My MP is a little over 800 btw, with food.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

No you have not. I will call you out on managing a full debuff, main healing set up + magic burst on a common endgame exp/merit party.

Who said it had to be a common EXP/Merit PT?

Well before ToA ever came out I was doing everything you listed was physically impossible per fight. There are some things you can cut out by the situation, but Dia > Slow > Paralyze and weaving in Haste, Refresh, Cures and MBs was pretty standard for me.

Enfeebling has always been fairly pointless in a burn context. Its been that way forever, the rest of the community only came upon that revelation when ToA came out but anyone who had done burn PTs pre-ToA knew it all too well. BRDs would stick elegy, mage might cast Dia, but nothing more than that because the mob was going to die fast anyway.

But prolonged fights are a different matter and that's where a RDM's full set of magic skills are most needed.

I've seen far too many RDMs (MrMageo, I'm looking right at you on this one) that claim our nukes suck. They don't suck when you try to magic burst them in those prolonged fights. MBing is not exclusive to BLM and SCH and them being better at it isn't a reason for you not to do it.

I've said this before and I'll say it again - Red Mage is all about endurance. We invite BRD and COR to overpower a mob, we invite Red Mages so we can outlast a mob. Giving a PT endurance is much more than sitting back and tossing out cures.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I've seen far too many RDMs (MrMageo, I'm looking right at you on this one) that claim our nukes suck. They don't suck when you try to magic burst them in those prolonged fights. MBing is not exclusive to BLM and SCH and them being better at it isn't a reason for you not to do it.

I have said our free nukes suck, I am all for magic bursting. By free nukes I mean casting for the sake of casting, not on a MB.

Ive seen far to many RDM's claim they can out damage a melee RDM with nukes (BBQ I am looking right at you). They do suck when your casting them to try and output regular damage.

When a comparison is made I would love to see a RDM nuke his/her way to 85% of a top flight DD's damage, while still doing 50% of the haste load, 50% of a cure load and 50-100% (depending on the enfeebles that must be cast) of the enfeeble load.

Now don't get me wrong, since /SCH came out we are quite capable of nuking rather effectively, but what is the difference between gearing yourself and burning MP on nukes over cures, buffs, and status heals. Versus that of gearing yourself to melee, and giving cures, buffs, status heals that same back seat.

Why is it ok to you for a RDM to willingly dump MP this way, and not melee and losing the MP from a mage sub? Why is ok for a RDM to rest more because of nuking than a RDM who may or may not have to rest at all while meleeing? Why is it ok for a RDM to not do their "job" but nuke instead, over a rdm to not do their "job" and melee?

How often do you see these skillchains now a days where you can Magic Burst a nuke? How often do you see an opening where, you can say, ya I can give up some MP and status cures, strap on a melee sub and assist my party with decent damage. I guarantee the latter pops up more than the former.

Ive said this before and I will say it again. RDM is all about versatility, we fill in spots that are needed, and are often able to do multiple things in them. While RDM/SCH "free nuking" in a party is not bad or wrong, it falls into the same boat as RDM/melee and meleeing. If your going to call one a waste of time than you have to call the other a waste of time. (And the way I see it burning 120 MP on a spell for meh damage outside of a Magic Burst is a bigger waste of time than swinging a sword steadily.)

I have no gripes against it, to each their own, but for someone who is so adamant about RDM being played the "way it should be" and it should do its "job" to toy with the idea that nuking is acceptable. BBQ surely you jest.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

No you have not. I will call you out on managing a full debuff, main healing set up + magic burst on a common endgame exp/merit party.

It is physically impossible and you WILL be dropping debuffs on the fact of kill speed alone. Do not claim otherwise, because it takes a minimum of 3 seconds to cast a spell on a monster. And we have over 10 spells (Dia, Blind Poison Refresh, Haste, Cure, Regen Paralyze Slow Sleep) we would have to cast inside a 30-45 second period. It is not physically possible with the current game mechanics. You are truncating something, everyone does. If you are not, then your fights are lasting longer than 30-45's and your exp rate is not what the average late level parties would have wanted.

You will drop something that you think is lower priority the quicker the monster is killed. Depending on what you drop, the performance of your party can suffer for it. Having a secondary for maintaining important debuff functions covers this angle.

Second, if you've the MP to magic burst, you've the leeway to melee. I've posted previous arguments about the comparison to front line damage contribution to back line.


I have responses to your comments Vyuru and am very grateful for your post. However I've previous engagements today. I'll respond later on tonight.

I regularly drop Slow, Poison and Paralyze in merit parties but generally keep Dia II. It doesn't hurt a thing - my XP parties at level 75 are limited by spawns, not by killing speed, and unlike a melee-geared RDM, I've got the MP reserves and mana flow to support any reasonable level of activity from melees.

Generally speaking within that 30-45 second window, I'll cast Regen twice, Haste twice, Refresh once, and one or more of Cure III/IV, Dispel, Gravity, with just a tiny slice of time left over for the odd free nuke to hold a tricky XP chain or a self-buff like Stoneskin in preparation for an upcoming Convert, and maybe a Sleep or Sleep II to lock down something that linked or got "extra-pulled".

Re: MrMageo

Free nuking in XP parties for RDM is for holding on to XP chains. It's not to supplement the overall damage of the party. It's a one-time, one-shot investment of 100-some mana if you have it to spare, and it's OPTIONAL, but will typically do ~200-300 damage if you figure resistances into the equation.

While a decently geared melee RDM will "probably" outdamage a spare-mana free-nuking RDM, I guarantee the latter will get more consistent XP chains due to being more prepared for emergencies. A melee-focused RDM has no backup reserves to devolve on when the chips are down. A caster RDM does.

Consider:

A melee RDM at 75 needs - not wants - NEEDS - a second mage to help them. So your party configuration is generally going to be:

DD DD DD RDM Support Healer

A caster RDM at 75 is a one-man band, and needs almost no help. My parties generally fall along these lines:

DD DD DD Support Support RDM or DD DD DD DD Support RDM

That means there's either a second Bard, a Corsair, a solid 4th DD with casting backdrop like a PLD, or something else there to pick up the slack and take care of problems.

While the individual melee RDM may outdamage a caster RDM, he uses up more "party slots" than the caster does, and unless you'd care to propose that the melee damage from a RDM at 75 outweighs the benefits of having a second bard, a Corsair, or a full on DD (or even a Paladin, who will STILL outdamage the RDM), you're not going to get very far arguing the semantic point of melee RDM being superior to a casting RDM. It's just not true, and repeating it over and over doesn't any more so.

Frankly, I'd rather have a PLD/NIN in a party slot than a RDM/NIN who's not casting Haste on everyone. He's going to hit harder, take less damage, doesn't need much upkeep, and has a ton of "Wow the feces hit the fan let's deal with it" tools.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I just want to add that enfing in a burn party didn't seem like it was pointless for me at all. If you have a competent BRD pulling you probably have 2-3 mobs lined up for killing and can cast debuffs on them way before the melee even gets to attack them.

Then just add Dia after the melee attacks the mob, it really made a difference for both my MP and the WHM's in the long run.

Then again I tested this long time ago, back when I used to merit and when my favorite BRD+RDM+WHM+DDx3 setup was the way to go.

I have no idea if things have changed since then.



PS > I'm talking about JP parties though, tried joining some non-JP merit parties recently but like usual that convinced me Campaign battles were the way to go for me.

[Firewind]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I haven't really read through much of the thread so I don't know what the current area the Melee RDM debate is in but I will state my opinion on the subject as a whole.

As a career White Mage I want more melee Red mages around so I can have my job back. When I'm leading a party I'll be happy to let the RDM melee or nuke if they want to or need skill ups since chances are I never invited them to purely heal in the first place.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I haven't really read through much of the thread so I don't know what the current area the Melee RDM debate is in but I will state my opinion on the subject as a whole.

As a career White Mage I want more melee Red mages around so I can have my job back. When I'm leading a party I'll be happy to let the RDM melee or nuke if they want to or need skill ups since chances are I never invited them to purely heal in the first place.

Your problem is the willing Pink Mage, but honestly, its not like the majority of melee RDMs have braincells enough to make it work well enough to save you..

But most RDMs I've talked to or people who'd like to level RDM again but hate Pink Magery will be opting out of ToA levels via level sync. Since I have or can cap skills through other jobs, I fully intend to take my RDM and BRD down to any non-ToA level that needs either job. I might focus on the 50-55 range since that's a real bitch to get past the first time since RDM, BRD, COR, PLD and NIN breeze right through them and G1/G2 cap stifles people as well.

So you can have your job back, your problem just remains the willing Pink Mage.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

So you can have your job back, your problem just remains the willing Pink Mage.

/em jumps up and down waving her hands wildly in the air!!

That me! I love it! In fact, I can't wait until maintenance is over and I can get in game to do it some more!

[Balfree]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I'm a willing PNK too, I love how busy it is, only matched by BRD.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I'm a willing PNK too, I love how busy it is, only matched by BRD.

See, there's one! Get your torches and pitchforks!

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I'm a willing PNK too, I love how busy it is, only matched by BRD.

Haste.


Haste.


Refresh.


Haste.


Sit.


Sit.


Sit.


Oh hey, is that a spider on the ceiling?


Sit.


Ooooh someone got hit, Cure IV.


Sit.


Haste.


Haste.


Refresh.


Haste.


Sit.


Damn the chips are kinda far, I think I can grab the bag with my feet if I stretch.


Sit.


Sit.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Damn the chips are kinda far, I think I can grab the bag with my feet if I stretch.

LOLOLOL I've done that with a bag of peanuts!

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

<stuff>

Fail. I don't sit, like, ever. There's always something to cast as a pink mage.


Icemage

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Every time I PNK I get pissed that my Enhancing is capped because I realize it'd be a prime occassion to sit and spam barspells on myself and still get limit points for it.

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

My only issue with the bolded parts is that it'd really be better for the Rdm to be using an elemental staff at 51+ for those, which results in a loss of TP and WS/SC ability, which I view as an important thing unless you are fighting mobs with say, Amnesia or TP reducing moves. Before lvl 51, I don't remember just how much of a benefit a HQ wand is to enfeebles/nukes. It might be important, it might not, I just don't remember.

In the levels where HQ wands may or may not assist, the resistance rate of monsters to status effects and nukes are so low that it becomes a non-factor. Again, up to and through your 40's you don't see such a terrible resist rate, or a real 'drop' in RDM melee until 50, where the job you sub becomes a major factor in your performance.

As far as the elemental crutches, I'll admit that they're sushi for mages, however there not absolutely necessary, especially in the contexts I've said before. (Staticing with a WHM.) Teamwork in both parts will lead to a smoother performance than putting all of your fruit in a single basket, and I'll explain why later.

That's partly based on watching melee Rdm, and partly based on having a melee Whm in a static once I hit the 50s. There most definitely seemed to be an increase in the amount of WS that the crabs in Kuftal spammed when she did her melee Whm thing, and a decrease when she did not due to the heavy Bubble Shower.

I think that answer should be obvious to you though. More people meleeing the monster will mean more WSes, that's a given. However the stigma is that a front line 'Hybird' or generalist will do nothing but, and that all benefits from them being in the front line are void because of this single issue, which is simply not the case.

In the case of a RDM in the front line, or any generalist, a RDM takes that spot a 4th damage dealer would have been in. So while it's more than say a 2 support 3 dd 1 healer party would have had, if you were going to invite a 4th DD, obviously that second support job wasn't there to begin with.

You may end up with a lower damage threshold than a second dedicated DD would, but you maintain the level of support that second Support job (brd or cor) had which was generally overlooked. (Note, your second support job should be /whm.)

Jumping ahead to the most important keypoint of Icemage's argument:

Frankly, I'd rather have a PLD/NIN in a party slot than a RDM/NIN who's not casting Haste on everyone. He's going to hit harder, take less damage, doesn't need much upkeep, and has a ton of "Wow the feces hit the fan let's deal with it" tools.

By the time you get to that point, you're already inviting a hybrid into your party, and you're just arguing semantics. You don't know what the circumstances of the individual party will be until you're actually in the party.

For example, if the healer class was a WHM, the haste cycle would be split as would the curing load. Advantage of this is that spells land on the mob faster depending on what's being split between the two mages, and the gradual HP recovery is larger than if you had your RDM in the back line.

Devotion + Convert means a RDM has quite a MP pool to play with, and double refresh (ballad, refresh) for both means that magic bursting is an option for both, not just one.

Example number 2: A scholar takes the back line for the Red Mage, and AoE's stoneskin and Phalanx. The damage received level drops to almost 0, so much that the RDM's costs to support cure is minimal, more than enough to take on a full haste cycle himself with no difficulty. As refresh yeilds more than Sublimation, the Scholar has more inflowing MP and will have no difficulties AoEing an enspell for the entire party: You now have Haste+Enspell consistent on a party, and there's still left over MP for debuffs and magic bursts. (And the Scholar nukes harder than a rdm by far.)

The advantage both of these situations have over a X4DD situation is that you've got the awareness of 3 people on the look out for sudden party changes. Granted, Red Mage should be the first one to react as his MP is the 'extra pool' in the group, so your puller and your healer are not interrupted from their tasks. This is the entire point of a rdm in front or back line is to sever as a catalyst. This really isn't something it can do too well in the back line in spite of people saying otherwise.

If you cut it down to 1 support, 1 healer, typically that 1 support job is puller and sleeper, so when something goes wrong, one of your key backbone classes has to pull away from their critical primary job to resolve the situation ,be it the puller not pulling, or the healer not healing. While this sort of flexing may be ok for a bird camp, when you're pulling skoffins and mamools, that is a potentially fatal problem.

Again, which hybrid job you choose to put in instead of a 4th DD, is a semantics argument, each offer something unique in each situation. If you're completely adamant against a front line RDM, then yes, sure, invite a DD PLD, or a Dancer first. But note that something like that is also subject to availability and in as sense, yes, I'm pushing for more acceptance of a Generalist style Rdm for those situations.

In the big picture it's a rather small niche, but the benefits are there, both the principle and the practical of it is sound, and it promotes job variability.


There is a whole lot I would like to reply to, but of course I'm limited on time due to a confusing work schedule, so I'll reply to this last.

And you may ask why I was ok with her doing a melee Whm in a static, and why I'm coming down so hard on melee Rdm in this, and a few other, threads. The answer is simple. We were a group of friends having fun, she did not try to pass herself off as being more than she was.

We fall back on this critical point on people with different views of the game.

With level sync and all the other updates there is simply no reason why you can't make this sort of partying the norm, finding friends that agree with your playstyle and expectations, and that will appreciate the concept and performances you are offering.

I for one am not trying to pass it off for more than what it is. A front line Rdm at it's peak of Melee Performance will not do much more than point out which damage dealers are falling behind in performance/gear, etc by out-damage dealing them. That's at their peak, mind you. With everyone on the ball they're likely going to be well out damaged, but still within acceptable areas.

As far as the bringing in the healer to fill the role a RDM steps away from? That's no different than filling in the healer's position when having a second bard or corsair, and therefore a non-issue. If you happen-stance among a quartet of zen-level melee's that can perfectly balance hate and not take additional damage, then fine.

But much like it is the personal experiences of many here that front line RDM's perform terribly, I have yet to meet a party of 4 dds without at least one being on the level of a Hasso-Bankai-Samurai, or a Ninja who's forgotten how to tank, or some other sort of near-catastrophic folly in the melee line that has ruined the prospect of back-lining in parties on RDM for me.