RDM Melee? Whered they go?

[Ziero]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

A Rdm Debuffing Greater Calibri can slap on int + gear ( I think correct me if I am wrong) and cast silence on the mob, before debuffing, and let the tank(s) take the hate back, before continuing their usual routine. (Which I would prefer mele.) Healing, enffebling, nuking, what ever.

They are *exceptionally* resistant to Silence. Even with full int gear and Ele seal it can be resisted easily.

Rdm as mian healer Mainly because of Convert is a decent idea to me, but not the best. Mp is a rdms Hp to me. If they run low on Hp, and have good Mp, slap on a refresh/regen, and convert, (while not engaged as it does give some hate (I think Been so long.)) and let the tanks take hate back.

...that is the exact opposite way that every single rdm I have ever seen in nearly 5 years of playing this game has ever used Convert.

RDM to me is this:

Refresh-> Haste tank -> Regen tank -> Refresh mages -> Self buff -> Melee/back up heal. (and repeat.)

In merit pts, the mob would be dead before you started self buffing. But then again they usually only have one mage.

(Can't believe I'm typing this) But if you want to talk RDM melee in today's FFXI, you may want to send MrMageo a PM, I think he's the only hard-core RDM melee on these forums.. (Again, can be wrong)

...there are far, far more compitent melee Rdms out there then him.

Empedocles, I didn't really know that. That's just the thing. So they basically have a perm Reflect on them you are saying? ((I have yet to hit lvl 75 so I am not that experienced. lvl 59 is the best I have))

As noted from the Wiki, it's not reflect, it's Mimic. The spell lands on them, but they then cast it on someone else. An interesting trick with this is to drop a big cure on the Colibri as it won't regain any HP, but will cast the spell on the tank, allowing for a hate free cure.

But casting silence on these things will do nothing but silence your tank.

I would love to have a party of rdms/nin using Blaze Spikes, and SS. No tank needed. No main healer needed, and the mob is dead with in seconds. Rdm Melee was fun while it lasted for me though.

The mob would take a few minutes to die, even a Colibri. Rdms were never about killing fast, they were lasting long. If that idea was a viable method for Exping, it would have been done already and it would have been popular.

And as I've said earlier, I been playing for near 5 (if not longer) years now, and never have Rdms been considered good at meleeing. They were always "ok" but better at healing/supporting. In the first 30 or so lvls it was acceptable and maybe even useful because mobs were so weak and Rdm had very basic things to do. But as mobs get stronger, Rdm spells get better and their melee skills get weaker, Rdm melee would quickly fall to the wayside.

That's not saying a Rdm shouldn't melee ever, but there are times and places when they can. And most Exp pts are not that time.

As for front-line RDM, at level 70+ exp. parties BLU and DNC has a similar issue too, so do PUP and THF (to a certain extend) ---- more effort is required for that play-style to function as intended. Compare with different party-setup/jobs/play-style, it seems that back-line RDM has less confusion and easier to team up in exp. parties.

From my understanding, Blu and Dnc are incredible in TP burn pts, and I know a good thf doesn't have trouble...unless his party is filled with chickens who run from TA depsite getting hate anyway. Though I don't know how Pup works. I'm sure it's not the best, but I doubt it'd be the worst.

IMHO, there is a risk involved to heal other players in Campaign too, unless the *healer* is ready. For example, a *healer* was dumping cures on the *tank*, and that *tank* is KO-ed. Guess who is next targeted by the mob? If that mob is something like Shadowhand, Herohunter... { fun } + { excitement } Hell yea! XD

Chances are, anyone fighting the NMs is gonna die regardless, especially if there's only two people. But still, I can see why it would be dangerous to cure random people.

[Raydeus]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

P.P.S. RDM/WAR tanking better than PLD/WAR or PLD/NIN? Surely you jest.

It depends on the mob and the situation, I've survived and tanked mobs (like the Orcish Warmachine in campaign) that simply destroyed any PLD who dared going near them unless they had some good support behind them.

And with maxHP/MP potions I've been able to tank most NM (except for Poisonhand and Anders for obvious reasons) pretty good... before I lose hate due to my lack of hate generation tools that is.


Still I much rather tank stuff as PLD, all the casting as RDM can get pretty crazy. So lately I only tank regular mobs to get more notes/xp.


PS > I'm talking about Campaign because that's been my main activity recently, but I don't think RDM could tank in an xp party at all, we lose hate way too easily in normal settings.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I guess my English sux.. I don't mean to say no cure others in Campaign at all. I am just saying there are certain times the mage is unable to spare the Cure on you... like their MP may ran out, who knows.

[TheGrandMom]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I've leveled 4 rdms, working on number 5 at the moment. I love rdm. You need to know when melee is the right thing to do and when it is not. The efficiency of the party comes first. If you hamper that by meleeing then you are not being a good rdm. About 1% (and thats probably being generous) of the rdm population can do their job just as well meleeing as they will if they are in the backline. Because that percentage is so small, people don't want to take the chance of getting a melee rdm thats one of the other 99% so they made them a backline job.

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Yadayada blabbity blah we've done this a lot before, but I'll still pitch in my pesos.

I still melee as RDM and in situations where I'm not pulling or tanking I keep my melee gear on me, and I have a pretty respectable set. However, certain pieces of gear have begun to take priority, mainly Physical and Magic Damage %- gear, which I like to carry around because you get slapped with so much random shit between Dynamis, Campaign, and everything else.

First and foremost there's 2 rules: 1) If you're going to melee as RDM, do it after you've handled your casting responsibilites. Casters Refreshed, melees Hasted if noone else is there to handle it, mob debuffed. Keep full casting gear on you at all times, including staves, because sometimes you're just going to get something feisty that you need to slap a Dark Staff on and Sleep. If you find yourself unable to land Slow/Para/Blind without elemental staves, then you shouldn't be meleeing.

And of course, 2) If you're going to melee as RDM, don't suck at it. Keep your gear and skills up to date, and use Sushi. Your accuracy is going to be low naturally even with what looks like a large amount of accuracy+ gear, and it cannot be stressed enough how important a high hit rate is.

With so many sources of Refresh being availble now it's slightly easier to melee and not have to rest between fights, which is a bonus. However, honestly inventory room just makes it hard now. Even with full gobby bags I'm currently 2 casting items away from not being able to fit all my casting and melee gear in my inventory at the same time, and casting must be the priority. I have to lug around normal gear, 2 enfeebling sets, 2 nuking sets, an MP set, an hMP set, 8 Staves and all kinds of other crap, which these days to be honest you should have. The game's been around long enough that you can easily find info on how most of it works and what you should have on you.

At any rate search this RDM section, there's countless posts on how to properly gear for melee, ignore posts from MrMageo, good info is from Arkanna, Armando, TaskMage and others, and if you really can't figure stuff out from there send me a PM or something.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Wow lots of the usual criticism which is why melee RDM's don't bother with posts anymore.

First off I have been meleeing for pretty well my whole career as a RDM, back when it was accepted and more recently when it is highly discredited.

From my experience (obviously slightly biased given my melee heavy opinions.)

1-40

Our casting ability is rather meh here, we are lacking in elemental, and healing spells. This is usually the range where people melee alot for a couple reasons.
Our damage is not that far off from the other melee crowds, we have limited MP and obviously can not cast heavy. Our mage subjobs offer minimal bonuses to our casting ability through these levels. We lack any real good mage type gear for the latter half of this section.

40-70

Here we get some of our more useful spells and become more adept casting mages. (stone water aero) Teir 3 elementals, Refresh, Haste, nearly full -na line-up, erase, access from /whm, elemental enfeebles, sleepga from /BLM and of course convert. Convert pretty well seals the deal for casting in these levels thanks to the more casting less resting it offers. We also have access to a lot more mage gear in this range. Alternativley our melee takes a hit because mobs defenses, evaisions and all that nice melee stuff ramps up rather quickly leaving us in the dust. Without decent weapons or gear we are hard pressed to physically harm a monster (birth of the TP feeding which I will discuss later).

70-75

Here we see the onset of TP burns, we are usually the sole mage which means we are responsible for Healing, Buffing, Debuffing, CC. (pretty well in that order) This range exemplifies or prestige as a casting class. We bound ahead of WHM's in terms of Support, and ahead of BLM's in terms of longevity of sustainable damage. Again Courtesy of convert. Melee however is not out of the question as much here simply because what we choose to party on. Gone are the thick shells of beetles and crabs, gone are the devastating effects from IMPs, and in there place are the soft feathers of colibri, and the squishy hides of mamool. Both sides of the coin have great gear selections here, although in order to melee effectivley we still need to hop the last of the major hurdles that hold us back. ACC.

75(+merits)

Once you start meriting it is always wise to go for your mage merits first, by now you should know the routine, so you know what you will want. Convert, Enfeebling are givens A mix of ACC is nice (most go 5/5 ICE), and of course the teir 2 is open season with people taking a chunk of everything (usually maxing slow and para). Once you are comfortable with your choice this is where you make your decision to be a great melee and good mage, or a great mage and a ok melee. (I will focus on merits that are geared towards melee)

Enhancing Merits (8/8)

This along with with gears (warlock tights, duelist gloves, enhancing torque) puts you over 300 enhancing skill which gives you 20 damage enspells at about 75-80% consistency. As well as higher Phalanx, Easier to cap Stoneskin etc etc etc.

Crit hit merits (5/5)

Speaks for itself the more merits here the higher crit rating you have.

MACC

5/5 Ice or 5/5 lighting is a good way to go (personally I went ICE to help with Bind blizzard para) This will provide you with even more MACC to your enspells on top of enhancing magic, solidifying you at 80% if you use the correct enspell.

STR or DEX

Depending on your preference 5/5 in one or the other, I went dex because it offers 2.5 ACC which is about 1% hit rate increase. It also helps on the Mod to Evisceration. As well as slightly increasing your crit rating.

Sword (8/8) Dagger (8/8)

Caps us at 266 skill which is as high as we can go without the aid of torques (which are again meh for RDM since they really only give us 6 ACC vs 10 from a PCC)

16 more attack rating equates to about a >2 Damage boost on most merit/endgame mobs.

These merits will increase your functionality as a melee RDM, and do not harm your mage side at all.

The Gear Side of things is deep, there is no ultimate set-up, and if SE keeps adding equip in the amount they did the other day it could deepen even further.

Joyeuse or Justice is still #1 for single wielding or as an off-hand, Blau is still #1 for daggers. Any combo of the 3 is very good. Evisceration is our most damageing weaponskill, even on non piercing mobs, and /NIN provides the most DoT of any of our subs.

Start with anything with +ACC, when you get to about 390-395 ACC you are set to start filling other holes. +ATK is neglible, as it takes alot of ATK to = a decent damage increase instead most common builds will go to haste next to increase the amount of times we smack an enemy, and let our enspells speak for themselves. +Enspell Damage is also becoming increasingly popular, things like hollow and fencer are appearing on more and more sets.

My personal set is this.

Blau/Joy/-/Tiphia Sting
W.Turban/PCC/Hollow/Suppa
SH+1/Duelist Hand/Fencer/Sniper +1
Forager/V.belt/Pala.Pants/Duelist Boots

I have 394/399 ACC with this. (Which is about a 90% hit rate)
+16% Haste
+8 to enspell damage


Common misguided remarks.

TP feeding.

This is false we do more Damage/TP then all jobs but MNK and NIN at 75, unless the other jobs want to stack up Subtle Blow and gimp themselves. Enspells are huge. Personally with my 28 damage enspells (average of 23 damage after muliplying ACC) I get essentially 3 attacks for 2. (3.5 if joyeuse double procs)

Just a quick equation saying I am hitting for 40/45

40+23+45+23 = 131 for 16 TP to the mob (5 each +3)

131/16 = 8.2 DMG/TP

WAR for example do on average 100 damage with 2 axes which give 13 TP to a mob each

100/26 = 3.84 DMG/TP

Enspells are huge for us in terms of balancing our DD potential.

Sub Jobs

/NIN is the gravy, since enspells are our bread and butter offensivley (it would take about +100 Attack to equate to a 20 damage enspell and that is only if you can do it without capping out the P.Dif). TP gain is awesome with off hand joytoy. Evisceration being our strongest WS gets a shot at 6 hits.

/WAR is good on mamools, Vorpal Blade is decent, It comes close to evisceration, but is only 4 hit (where evis can be 6)

/BLU is used for a melee/healer role its healing breeze is awesome possum, again vorpal is unlocked here.

/DNC is wicked as a main healing/melee mage role, has all the tricks WHM has for no MP, and an ACC bonus. No special WS however, so haste up and spend that TP.

Like I said if your interested in seeing more numbers, such as DMG vs common mobs let me know.

A well merited and equipped RDM can beat average heavy melee, we can parse close to great melee (even closer than parses count since they suck ballz at tracking enspells). Just remember you can't half ass it, your either going to melee/mage or mage so make your pick because spliting things up means you get to sit on the sidelines like 90% of the folks here and claim it does not work. Learn spell timing, getting the cast started at the very begining of the swing animation means you save valuable swing time. There are several spells that work Dia, Haste, Cures to name a few.


Not to mention it is fun, of course fun is something that has been lost in this game over the years. go go elitism.

[Raydeus]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

At least this time you made a coherent post and left the inferiority complex crap out. <_<

And while your math is as iffy as always I have to agree with the right setup of Merits/Gear RDM can hold their ground at least decently while meleeing.

Now, the main thing that needs to be considered here is that you need to get all those pre-requisites (Merits and gear) before you try meleeing in a party higher lvl than 40 (and specially after lvl 48), otherwise it just isn't worth it unless your DDs really really suck.

________

And my view on the subject (for the 1000th time):

1-40 Melee all you want unless you are main healer. After all at those levels we do some nice dmg and our skill rating/gear choices are pretty good for that.

41-75 After refresh and Haste just sit in the back lines and support your party with Enhancing magic, cures and the occasional nuke.

75+ If you get good gear and a good combination of merits you can potentially go back to meleeing given your party setup allows you to do so.

And that's pretty much it. I approach RDM as a very adaptable job, it can got offensive or defensive according to the situation so that goes well with my playstyle. -The End-

[Hyrist]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Short answer is they're either.
1. Given up on doing it and are in the back line now.
2. Off in Campaign (you'll see the majority of them here.)
3. Solo/Duoing.
4. In a static with people that accept them.


My view on the leveling scale in responce to Raydeus's

1-40 Melee all you want unless you are main healer. After all at those levels we do some nice dmg and our skill rating/gear choices are pretty good for that.

Translation: If you're at the top end of your gear, you'll be out-damaging most melee's that won't get the top end of gear. Your best subjob for this at the time is warrior (if you're not main healing, and you shouldn't be anyways at this level.) and you'll want to open for fusion on pretty much most mobs.

Some tips: Fill in whatever you can't get accuracy on with MP, swap in str/int/mnd as needed for spells and weaponskills. Melee in Dex Rings until you can get acc rings.

41-51:

I'm adding this segment because this is the debated part of meleeing. People believe that on the onset of refresh you won't be in the front line. This is entirely situational on how many 'mages' are in your party. Truth is, the more mages in your party, the less you'll be spending your MP on other things besides refresh anyways. Only at level 48 and the introduction of haste into our spell list does this become a bit burdensome, as our MP pool can't manage both haste and refresh loads at this level. Translation: static with a WHM.

51-75 After refresh and Haste just sit in the back lines and support your party with Enhancing magic, cures and the occasional nuke.

Translation: If you want to melee, you've three solutions.
1. Solo
2. Campaign (note this dosen't get good till 60+)
3. Party with friends.

With level sync there's simply no reason to play RDM the way you don't want. Find people that ok with you doing it and make sure you gear and sub properly.

Before Level Sync, the biggest arguments that actually held any weight was haste/refresh load and the overpoweredness of elemental staves when it came to enhancing magical accuracy for debuffs. Everything else had a counter-argument to it.

Now, there's just no sense arguing it, find friends that agree with you, party with them.

Until RDM gets some sort of update for these problematic levels, that'll pretty much be the only way you will get into parties.

75+ If you get good gear and a good combination of merits you can potentially go back to meleeing given your party setup allows you to do so.

Merits arn't necessary, but good gear is. /nin dosen't become viable till Miserecorde+1, and even then is trumped with Blau Dolch (taking Joyuse for granted). /war sufferers hate difficulties with Joyeuse involved, so be prepared to be on the defensive with that sub.

A few notes for all levels:
1) Always bring some additional curing power with you White Mage, especially at merits, seems to function the best (another RDM can be a substitue) Scholar is great as well. However you can function with a dancer in party.

2) Open, don't close skillchains post 40, and yes, insist on skill-chains in the party, even if that means you're holding TP for them (within reason), you'll notice a marked increase in party damage if you encourage that level of co-operation.

3) Don't get suckered into debates. Focus on developing your skills rather than defending them, and let the exp/hr speak for itself. You can be just as good as a party catalyst in the front line as you are in the back line (more so in some cases, less in others) if you learn to work with each situation correctly.

If you'd like any personal tips depending on your level, send me a PM and I'd be glad to discuss with you.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

ignore posts from MrMageo

If I could thank you more than once, I would. Best Advice in the thread!

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

The real litmus test is:

If the RDM in a party needs to dish out significant melee damage for the party to function, you've got bigger problems than the inconsequential philosophical issue of "should" you be in melee or backlining, because that means that the real DDs in your party are so horrible that they can't do what their jobs were designed for.


Icemage

[Armando]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

This is false we do more Damage/TP then all jobs but MNK and NIN at 75, unless the other jobs want to stack up Subtle Blow and gimp themselves.

Ever heard of two-handed weapons before?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Ever heard of two-handed weapons before?

The more you present him with reason, the more he's going to believe the opposite. He already thinks NIN is a top-tier DD and that RDM falls just short of it.

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Wow lots of the usual criticism which is why melee RDM's don't bother with posts anymore.

There is hardly any criticism here. If you think what was posted before is criticism, you haven't seen criticism before.

Heck, most of the posts are, "Rdm can melee in some circumstances, not all"

TP feeding.

True on mobs with dangerous single target attacks (spiders, triple bats) high defense (crabs, beetles) and mobs with dangerous AoE (antica)

Your piddly damage does not justify the extra TP that lets the mob get in an extra 2-3 WS. For crabs and beetles, these will be SC+MB mobs, unless people are stupid and try to TP burn them, and a Rdm won't be able to deal any worthwhile damage and would be better off being in the back lines keeping the party going.

This is false we do more Damage/TP then all jobs but MNK and NIN at 75, unless the other jobs want to stack up Subtle Blow and gimp themselves.

False, any two hander worth their salt will deal better damage/tp than a Rdm, especially if they are in a 2x Brd party so that they get +att songs, a single Brd should be giving +haste songs, or have a Cor in the party giving them 2 of the 3 rolls: Warrior, Rogue, or Chaos.

I can hit for 260+ with food and buffs in a single non critical hit on merit mobs, can you?

A well merited and equipped RDM can beat average heavy melee

You mean a fully merited and exceptionally equipped Rdm can beat average heavy melee.

Well, your average heavy melee is not fully merited, does not have Sea access let alone Bahamut drops, Rajas Ring, or Brutal Earring. Your average melee may not even be sporting Dynamis gear that might help them.

You should be comparing yourself to other heavy melee who ARE fully merited, who have exceptional gear, after all the average player does not have a SH+1, Vbelt (lordy I hope you don't mean a Vanguard Belt) or Peacock Charm, or the Rare/Ex version of it.

But you don't want to do that, because if you were then you'd be admitting that Rdm melee gets it's ass handed to it by a comparably equipped and geared melee.

Frankly, in some situations I have no problem with Rdm melee. However Rdm melee will never approach the level of a comparably equipped melee. You fall even farther behind when we take buffs into consideration. You fall farther behind when we take WS into consideration. I can hit between 600-800+ with Penta Thrust, no buffs and at 100% TP. According to your last Rdm melee commentary, you only get 350-450 with Vorpal Blade while subbing Drk and using Soul Eater. You say that you can get a 450+ Savage Blade at 300% TP.

For crying out loud, this is nothing to be proud of. Any other job that has access to Vorpal Blade will match or beat that, without using Soul Eater or Last Resort.

Different weapon, different job, but even so. A Whm in my LS who melees during LS merit parties can hit for 500+ on Hexa Strikes at 100%TP. Whm is not exactly perceived as a DD job here.

If the RDM in a party needs to dish out significant melee damage for the party to function, you've got bigger problems than the inconsequential philosophical issue of "should" you be in melee or backlining, because that means that the real DDs in your party are so horrible that they can't do what their jobs were designed for.

Quoted for the truth.

Again, I don't mind Rdm melee in some situations, but don't be deluding yourself that the party will magically go from 12k/hr to 20k/hr just because a Rdm pulls out his sword, or that you can match a real DDs damage output.

At any rate search this RDM section, there's countless posts on how to properly gear for melee, ignore posts from MrMageo, good info is from Arkanna, Armando, TaskMage, Hyrist, Raydeus and others.

Another quote that needs to be said again (and added to)

[Durahansolo]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

As soon as I ht the dunes I was asked to be main healer. I was like wtf! GTFO! I will nto main heal!. I will back up heal but not mian heal!. Then then they guy started to B**** at me.

WTF in the dunes? Its been a long time since I've pt'd in the dunes but I don't remember RDMs Main healing in the dunes unless possibly there were 2 of them in the party (And usually then, one was meleeing as backup lol). I remember back at lower levels, when somebody saw a WHM meleeing in the dunes they'd shout "FIGHTING WHM!!!" in the ls, most of the time the WHM would either get killed or almost get killed meleeing lol. As a 74WAR I've noticed that I pretty much stick to melee jobs, but RDM was probably one of the only mage jobs I've considered playing. Before I got the game I researched all the classes and thought "Hey RDM can Melee/DD/Heal/Enfeeble at the same time." This was before I realized that after a certain level, they become MP slaves with Refresh and permanently merge to part of the backline. Not that there's anything wrong with that but I'm more of a Tank/DD person myself. In my WAR mentality at lower levels, I dont care who DD's as long as the main healer isn't frontline DDing.

[Ziero]

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

A few notes for all levels:
1) Always bring some additional curing power with you White Mage, especially at merits, seems to function the best (another RDM can be a substitue) Scholar is great as well. However you can function with a dancer in party.

If you have a Sch or Whm/Sch in a merit pt, why do you need a Rdm?

Seriously, comparitively geared Rdms will not do more dmg then comparitively geared Melees. Ever. Rdm isn't built to be a DD job. It's balanced to be good at everything, and it can be good at melee, but in this game, in exp pts especially, people want the best. And Rdm is never going to be the best at meleeing.

Like many people have said, there are plenty of ways a Rdm can melee in this game, especially now with things like Assaults and Campaign and the like. But Exp pts have not changed in the 4-5 years I've been playing. TP (and most)burn pts were the best at higher lvls then like they are now, lower lvl pts need balanced groups now just like they did then and Rdms are not going to be the best meleer in a balanced group of compitent, comparitvely geared people, but they are still one of the best healers and support jobs. And there's nothing wrong with that.