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**Empedocles** · 09-11-2008, 12:37 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

First up - I have PLD and RNG up at 75, not RDM. This is from an outside perspective, which is helpful on occasion. If I state something here and a career Red Mage refutes it, go with them.

It's a sad case of what happens in TP burns right at the top in meripo trickling down into the lower levels. There the fights are so thick and fast and hate bouncing that the mob can be dead before the RDM gets all their melee buffs up.
Thus brings RDM to the back lines, but the mobs a lot of people meripo on (Greater Colibri) have the ability to cast offensive spells cast on them onto the person who has hate, so doing what RDMs do, debuffing etc, are not advisable - thus the Red Mage goes into the healer role in meripo, ousting WHM and SCH because of Refresh and Convert.

Because that is quite effective in meripo, people think it's good for lower levels too; not just 5 or so levels lower, but all the way down... this is a common occurence with more than just RDM healing.

Now I'd say RDM main healing in Dunes is a bit extreme, but lacking any info it may be that there was no other jobs around that could do it.

**Takelli** · 09-11-2008, 12:51 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I see where you are coming from.

I do agree that the parties that kill fast before the rdm even gets to put the buffs up, do not get a chance to melee.

What I think for Rdm is the only 2 buffs they need for melee is an "En-" spell, and haste. The tank gets haste (of course), then the others. (Which contributes to hate bouncing. But haste really should give the caster Hate as the caster is the one that is making the melee do the dmg. I don't get it but ok.)

A Rdm Debuffing Greater Calibri can slap on int + gear ( I think correct me if I am wrong) and cast silence on the mob, before debuffing, and let the tank(s) take the hate back, before continuing their usual routine. (Which I would prefer mele.) Healing, enffebling, nuking, what ever.

Rdm as mian healer Mainly because of Convert is a decent idea to me, but not the best. Mp is a rdms Hp to me. If they run low on Hp, and have good Mp, slap on a refresh/regen, and convert, (while not engaged as it does give some hate (I think Been so long.)) and let the tanks take hate back.

RDM to me is this:

Refresh-> Haste tank -> Regen tank -> Refresh mages -> Self buff -> Melee/back up heal. (and repeat.)

**Effedup** · 09-11-2008, 01:01 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I took RDM from 10-31 in a duo with another RDM in my ls. Both of us were /nin, and honestly, it was some of the most fun I've had with any job...it'd get a little hectic with all the shit we we're doing, but it was exciting anyways.

It's a shame that so many people want RDM to be a back line job. I can understand why RDM is desirable as a main healer at the higher levels, but I don't understand why people are so resistant to melee RDMs. It's not that hard to melee and cast at the same time, I do it all the time with my mage jobs.

**Empedocles** · 09-11-2008, 01:04 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

iirc, silence doesn't work on them... it's more of a reflect than mimic, I guess you could say the Colibri 'absorbs' the spell then re-sends it to who has hate, so Silence only gets the mob's current target silenced and as most people sub Ninja for the shadows, makes for a hasty silena, lol.

(Can't believe I'm typing this) But if you want to talk RDM melee in today's FFXI, you may want to send MrMageo a PM, I think he's the only hard-core RDM melee on these forums.. (Again, can be wrong)

**Takelli** · 09-11-2008, 01:05 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Empedocles, I didn't really know that. That's just the thing. So they basically have a perm Reflect on them you are saying? ((I have yet to hit lvl 75 so I am not that experienced. lvl 59 is the best I have))

Thanks for the heads up about MrMageo, I will send him a PM then.
_______________________________________________

Rdm duos are always fun. Very little down time, esp if you have convert. Too bad I didn't get to that lvl before I had to quit. Lol

I would love to have a party of rdms/nin using Blaze Spikes, and SS. No tank needed. No main healer needed, and the mob is dead with in seconds. Rdm Melee was fun while it lasted for me though.

By the way... Nice Avataar Effedup.

Edited to fit*

**Empedocles** · 09-11-2008, 01:22 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Well I usually have some filters up so I don't know if there's a resist message, but being the recipient I see: "The Greater Colibri casts Flash." as if the mob was casting the spell itself. I think the hate generated by the spell applies anyway, which is another case against anyone but Paladin casting on Colibri.

However, Quick Draw shots from Corsair are not reflected. Probably because they are not considered 'spells' in the normal sense. I don't know about offensive Ninjutsu but I think offensive Bard songs do get sent back.

**Takelli** · 09-11-2008, 01:29 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Maybe it just copies the spells used against it, and it can only copy spells?

From the Wiki:

"Can Mimic any spell cast on it, except for blue magic."

So I guess the spell can land on it, there is nothing there about resisting or anything. It might have a high resist rate.

Well what ever it could be I can see someone new nuking it with -aga spells.

The quick draws aren't spells, so that seems correct. It cant mimic blu so a blu silence?

But, what you are saying is that the monster casts the spell onto the player the monster has the most hate on?

**Empedocles** · 09-11-2008, 01:35 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Yeah. So a BLM casts Flood 2 on it, and if it's still alive and I've still got hate, I'm going to be having a swim

Edit: This from the main wiki page:
Magic Parroting: Mimics offensive White Magic, Black Magic, Songs, and Ninjutsu spells; cannot parrot Blue Magic or Summoning Magic (including magic cast by avatars). Parroted spells cast instantly as if they were under Chainspell effect, and can either target the original caster or whoever has highest enmity (about 50% chance of either). Can only mimic a spell within a minute or so of being affected by it, and the impending mimicry is telegraphed by its posture (arched back and beak agape). When this posture is abandoned, it forgets any spells. Parroting can be prevented with Silence, though landing Silence is difficult. (Note: Not used by Lesser Colibri.)

**Takelli** · 09-11-2008, 01:38 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Just have someone who can stun it, stun it (A melee stun of course).

**degenXerate** · 09-11-2008, 03:08 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

I have 75RDM, BLM, DRG, and PLD. So a little from each world.

And from my experiances partying, RDM is always better in the back line. Its just not a good DD compared to other jobs you could fill the slot with. Why not have the RDM sit in the back and be the main healer, and a real DD job and take the spot of the RDM DD instead of wasting Party slots on a Backline healer and then a Half healer/DD. RDM on Main heals can also Keep up with all the buffs and Debuffs by him/herself. So you shouldnt nessisarily need someone to help the main healer do those things. If the RDM is in the back with mage gear on instead of melee gear, then you can get by easily in most cases. I'm pretty sure it would be really hard for a melee RDM to dish out the same kinds of dmg as other melee jobs.

Yes, Meleeing as RDM can be fun, i've done it a lot. Solo, or with groups of friends doing certain things. But never in a serious experiance party. RDM/NIN is one of the most solo friendly job combos out there for a lot of things. Actually one of my favorite things to do in the game is go out as RDM/NIN. But when it comes to EXPing, when i would level or merit, its back to the back lines for some killer EXP, and i'll have my melee fun on my own time.

I have been out of the loop for a while, i joined the service and just recently came back to FFXI. I havent EXP'd much at all since i came back so i dont know how party set ups are exactly these days. The new jobs SCH and DNC are completly new to me so i dont know exactly where they are thrown in the partys or what there main roles are. So i dont know how they effect RDM's.

**Icemage** · 09-11-2008, 03:34 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Melee RDM in a party, unless you're beating up on poor helpless Colibri, is pretty pointless. I don't care if you're dual wielding Joyeuse + Excalibur. There's usually plenty of other honest damage dealers around to dish out punishment, so even when you can, there's usually something more productive you can do instead.

Not to say that you can't ever melee - you certainly can if you really want to. Just don't go into it thinking that the extra damage you may or may not be pitching in is going to impact the flow of battle.

And certainly when you're solo, RDM/NIN is quite godly, with Fast Cast + Utsusemi making for excellent defensive options.

P.S. If you seriously think dual wielded daggers + enspells is dealing serious damage, you need to take a good, long, hard look at the numbers the rest of the party is posting up.

P.P.S. RDM/WAR tanking better than PLD/WAR or PLD/NIN? Surely you jest.

Icemage (semi-retired level 75 RDM, among other things)

**Celeal** · 09-11-2008, 08:20 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Coming from a non-RDM, trying to work with RDM in exp. party:

As for front-line RDM, at level 70+ exp. parties BLU and DNC has a similar issue too, so do PUP and THF (to a certain extend) ---- more effort is required for that play-style to function as intended. Compare with different party-setup/jobs/play-style, it seems that back-line RDM has less confusion and easier to team up in exp. parties.

On the other hand, melee RDM is awesome in Campaign Battles: they DD, debuff, heal, raise, tank, sleep/kite/crowd-control, and being godly, while my WAR spends a lot of time dying in Campaign... XD

**Truece** · 09-11-2008, 08:36 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

Originally posted by Celeal View Post

On the other hand, melee RDM is awesome in Campaign Battles: they DD, debuff, heal (themselves), tank, and largely ignore KOd players...

FTFY

**Celeal** · 09-11-2008, 08:55 AM

Re: RDM Melee? Whered they go?

IMHO, there is a risk involved to heal other players in Campaign too, unless the *healer* is ready. For example, a *healer* was dumping cures on the *tank*, and that *tank* is KO-ed. Guess who is next targeted by the mob? If that mob is something like Shadowhand, Herohunter... { fun } + { excitement } Hell yea! XD

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