You knew this discussion was coming...

[Callisto]

So I had it all figured out, and then S-E had to come along and completely fuck my program up.

You know what I'm talking about: RDM Group 2's.

I had been happy for a long time with my setup of 2 Para II/1 Slow/Blind II/2 Phalanx II...however the new cap certainly changes things.

At heart I will always be a debuffer, first and foremost. I take pride in being the RDM in my LS that everyone knows will land the spells that need to be landed, and I love the game-changing ability that actually landing strong debuffs can have on a fight. However, I still do a whole lot of lowman and DoT solo work, soloing Sky triggers is still a solid chunk of my income and the new NM system has opened up even more NMs to DoT solo.

Due to a combination of one of my LSmates aiming to cap 5/5 Phalanx II and the advent of SCH, I've definitely decided to drop my 2 Phalanx merits.

So I've narrowed it down to 2 choices:

1) Boost my debuffs(looking at 4Slow/4Para/2Blind)

or

2) Boost one debuff fully(Slow) and cap Bio III

The most recent testing I've seen as shown that the Slow II cap does not in fact change with more merits, but rather it takes less MND to reach the same cap, and I have a very strong feeling that Paralyze II works the same way(and for those who are curious, some early #'s that I've seen appear that Para II is at least noticeably stronger than Para I, capping at least twice as strong, meaning that it is in fact worth meritting(in my opinion at least).

On the other hand, capped Bio III would be a 2:30 duration of 8/tick damage, adding up to 400 DoT + initial damage for 53 MP, which is pretty insane when combined with Poison II.

I still have 4 more Marksmanship merits to get before I make a decision, but this one is certainly racking my brain.

[Taskmage]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

I've decided to drop Phalanx II also and cap out Bio III. Of course at the rate I merit it'll probably be xmas 2009 before I have to roll back my phalanx merits but still ...

I'd still like to cap out Para II over Slow II. First of all everyone and their puppet has Slow II and second it can't stop that first swing a mob takes when they enter melee range whereas Para II can. Problem is I liked having Slow II around at one point for the 2-for-1 on mobs that already have haste on. If the 4th and 5th merits don't actually change the max potency like you say, maybe I could talk myself into 4 para 1 slow.

[Callisto]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

From what I've seen the increased merits may have a barely noticeable effect on the cap itself, but a large impact on the amount of MND needed to reach it(important for a certain vertically-impared race, ahem), not to mention a reasonable boost to MAcc. The extra stickiness is more important to me than anything, potency doesn't mean much if you can't land the spell.

Really early #'s with a very large margin of error showed Para I to be capped around 18-20% and Para II around 36-40%, that's pretty heavy duty on mobs that you'd actually bother with Tier 2 debuffs on but don't have crazy HNM MND stats, like Nyzul 'group' or 'leader' mobs or Limbus thingies. I'm leaning towards the debuffing, but the Bio III would shave like 20+ minutes off of Zip/SC/etc., and that alone is a huge safety feature, the longer they're up the more chances they have to eat you. That's really hard to pass on entirely.

Side note: Where in the fuck am I supposed to find inventory room for 4-7 new grips?

[Taskmage]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

Screw that. I'll probably get dark, ice and wind and the most. And if I can get that staff with the insane macc bonus on it to go with, I'll be a happy camper.

[Mhurron]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

Screw that. I'll probably get dark, ice and wind and the most. And if I can get that staff with the insane macc bonus on it to go with, I'll be a happy camper.

No kidding, does RDM really need all 7, or even 4? Those 3 are really the big ones. I'd also love to think that the +2 MND from the Raptor Strap +1 would be enough though

[Callisto]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

I'm still iffy on that thing, I doubt that +20 will outdo the 15% I have already, although the MND/INT boost is pretty nuts, if it's something you can land on without HQ staves that'd go a long way towards capping you.

And as far as the Grips I defintely would want Earth/Ice/Wind/Dark at the very least, though really I'd want all but Light. Sometimes I hate my own min/maxing.

[Taskmage]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

I dunno. I didn't pay much attention to m.acc in the past but my binds feel much mroe solid with Balrahn's Ring on. If +4 makes a perceptible difference, +20 should make a very significant one. Of course I won't really know until I try that thing and Aquilo side by side, but it seems like it could be competitive to me. I'll probably keep the Aquilo for Blizzard anyway ...

[WishMaster3K]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

This totally shattered my world. I might cap Paralyze. I went and bought an Aquilo's Staff, and I have 5/5 Ice potency merits. Me not capping Paralyze would be foolish.

Para II 0/5
Slow II 0/1
Bio III 0/4

I think I'm ok with that. Dia, Phalanx and Blind can ESaD. -_-

[Callisto]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

I dunno. I didn't pay much attention to m.acc in the past but my binds feel much mroe solid with Balrahn's Ring on. If +4 makes a perceptible difference, +20 should make a very significant one. Of course I won't really know until I try that thing and Aquilo side by side, but it seems like it could be competitive to me. I'll probably keep the Aquilo for Blizzard anyway ...

I agree that seemingly small boosts have made a noticeable difference to me, Balrahn's/Goliard Clogs, but I'm still under the impression that Magic Accuracy works somewhat similar to Melee Accuracy in terms of a Skill > Accuracy formula. In order for Askalurops to outdo HQ Staves you'd have to assume that your total Magic Accuracy is 133 or less, and I'm definitely not going to buy that my 300+ skill equates into only 133 MAcc when I have +11 MAcc from gear alone.

I think that the new staff would be really nice for something you could reliable landy debuffs on with no Elemental Staff at all but weren't quite at the potency cap, but I strongly doubt it'll be better than even NQ staves at actually landing the spells.

[Karinya]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

Well, once someone finds the macc staff, they can test it. I doubt if SE would have bothered making it if it was going to be weaker than elementals that everyone already has.


Personally, I intend to keep Dia rather than Bio - sure, it's less useful for soloing, but it's much better when you're grouped with a bunch of melees, which is pretty much always. Bio helps, at most, the tank, and even then only if they're a DEF tank and if it's a physical attack. Dia helps all physical DDs hitting the target. I'll take that over more tick damage any day.

And if a Dia3 RDM and a Bio3 RDM show up to the same fight, I know which one I'd ask not to cast their merit spell.

It's not easy for a RDM to support the DD (in terms of helping their damage output, not just keeping them alive) - dia is one of the few ways we can.


I like the idea of slow2 as a haste killer, but I'm not sure that leaving it at level 1 is a good idea - aside from potential macc problems, slow2 is also a useful debuff in its own right.

I guess my decision on this is kind of academic since I hate ToAU merit parties and will take years to max out something as expensive as G2s just from campaign (while splitting those merits among 3 jobs), but I'd lean towards ParaII, SlowII and DiaIII in a fairly even mix, like 4/3/3 or 3/4/3. Less than cap duration on Dia is pesky, but it doesn't affect the Def down which is the main selling point, and you don't have to worry about resists on recast... Anything level 3+ is clearly useful because people have been getting use out of them that way since they were introduced. And if someone shows up with a 5/5 para/slow build and overshadows me, I'll just keep up dia and still be contributing. (Compared to TM or WM with the setups posted above I'd be keeping up dia and slow while they paralyze and regret that their bio would be counterproductive. XD )


No love for blind - has anyone even tested it? For all we know 5/5 blind2 could be a permanent Flash or something crazy like that. At least you wouldn't have to worry about another RDM showing up with the same spell and stealing your niche.

[Icemage]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

Does anyone else think a nerf of elemental staves is in order? 15% MAtk for an HQ staff is already quite digusting, and add in an unknown-but-VERY-noticeable MAcc trait (plus that cute effect on Summoner perpetuation costs) makes them amongst the most powerful items in the game, on par with Black Belt.

Maybe if this +20Macc staff isn't stupidly hard to acquire, Square-Enix will throw us a bone and get rid of the MAcc effect so we're not toting around 16 staves and grips on virtually every mage job...


Icemage

[Mog]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

Maybe if this +20Macc staff isn't stupidly hard to acquire, Square-Enix will throw us a bone and get rid of the MAcc effect so we're not toting around 16 staves and grips on virtually every mage job...


Icemage

You're going to try and get these new elemental grips? <.>

I've got better stuff to worry about than 8 new elemental grips. I don't even know why they added them. I'm gonna stick with my Bugard Leather Strap +1 for my black mage.

[Raydeus]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

If I ever got any of those group II spells (which I'm not) I'd probably go 4 Bio, 3 Slow and 3 Blind.

But that's for soloing purposes only, as I do no end game stuff whatsoever right now.

Could also go 4, 2, 4.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

I gave up on RDM Melee when I started raising PLD.

Honestly, have you guys tried the Yarnball plugin for windower? Holy shit, I never had it laid out in front of me how much shit I have to keep track of. Especially at a troll camp, where the Mobs are IT+ and take FOREVER to kill, and I usually have to break out the nukes on the PLDs cause Diamondhide destroys chains and it's very easy to get linked on.

Man, too much shit going on. I was never more happy to have a WHM and a BRD both in the back lines with me.

Honestly, I see myself probably splitting between Dia 3 and Bio 3. I think a 1 minute duration would be fine for both, but I just can't get over the fact that Bio III does more damage per tick in comparison to your Dark Magic skill..

But you do raise a good point, Karinya. I might as well make both level 2, cap out Para and put one in Slow. At the very least, having the spells - albeit, not capped - is better than not even having them.

[Callisto]

Re: You knew this discussion was coming...

No love for blind - has anyone even tested it? For all we know 5/5 blind2 could be a permanent Flash or something crazy like that. At least you wouldn't have to worry about another RDM showing up with the same spell and stealing your niche.

Some tests were posted in the Enfeebling Magic Potency thread here that we had dug up, I think Blind II capped around -30 Acc.

Maybe if this +20Macc staff isn't stupidly hard to acquire, Square-Enix will throw us a bone and get rid of the MAcc effect so we're not toting around 16 staves and grips on virtually every mage job...

I still strongly believe that 20 MAcc isn't anything close to the 15% boost of HQ staves, and high-end mobs are already too difficult to actually land debuffs on most cases. I do intend to keep my HQs for sure and get at least 4 of the grips. This will come at the expense of not being able to carry melee gear around at all times anymore, but I've gotten used to leaving it in MH when I have to carry tanking gear now anyways.

I usually have to break out the nukes on the PLDs cause Diamondhide destroys chains

I keep telling my LS leader(PLD main) that I'm going to get a Corselet and make a full-on PLD nuking build, lol.