Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

[Deeke]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I'll be honest. OP was tl;dr

*Cry!*

[arkaine23]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

/huge wall 'o text warning. You may skip to summary if you want.

Alright, RDM's got niche roles in parties already. Once his melee effectiveness starts dropping in the 30's, he moves to full time enfeebler, and support caster. Eventually he transitions into a no-rest main healer. What we want to see is RDM have the role of light melee and support caster/enfeebler. To do this someone else needs to be transitioned into main-healer. The ideal job for this is WHM, though SCH and perhaps SMN can also fit. The problem to overcome is mp longevity. SE has provided a mini convert and status fixes for /SCH, however usually /WHM is still desired by main healers for curagas and DS. We've still got SCH and WHM and SMN then as potential backline replacements, we just have to help them with their mp recovery issues. The second problem is to address the RDM's melee potential which is limited by gear selection, weak weapons, weak weaponskills, weak combat skills, and the time it takes him to cast spells on party members. RDM also has some trouble stretching his mp when meleeing in many level ranges. And lastly he loses magic accuracy compared to elemental staves in levels 51-75.


We can address another problem in the game here while we try to help RDM to frontline. Many jobs that use mp are not desirable in parties because of their mp dependence. BLU is not a top pick DD generally because of its need for mp refreshment to maintain top damage output. DRK rarely casts anything but drain/aspir/absorb-tp/stun, even though SE has tried to get it to cast more by lowering absorb cast times and adding new spells. WHM, SMN, and SCH are not as desirable as RDMs for main-healing as mentioned above, convert/refresh trump their mp recovery. BLMs lose party positions in the 50's partly because of mob magic resistances/reflection and also because they can't keep up in damage output due to rest time as party kill speed accelerates.

So....
Put a level 40-50s item that certain jobs can use that gives autorefresh, that's not difficult to get. Ammo slot or maybe earring or ring. Alternately, more mp jobs should have autorefresh trait at some point in their career, since SMN already have it, give them a second. Should be for WHM, SCH, BLM, and SMN. I don't see a problem giving it to BLU and DRK as well. I'd suggest RDM could have it, but it'd make us even better mp batteries and boost up our magey capabilities.

reason: mp jobs need more mp recovery in general. We want to help potential backline replacements for RDM have better longevity. +20mp/minute is not huge but helps.

Ok that's a good start at making viable replacements for backline RDMs so we can move up front. We've given an extra 1mp/tick to pretty much everyone who deserves it. But we can maybe still boost our replacements a liitle. After all we still have the burden of hasting and refreshing those who need those spells the most. Hastera for WHM seems like a good addition. Ideally it's more mp efficient than casting 4 Hastes, just like Curagas cure much more hp for less mp than single cures. It takes some casting load off a frontline RDM too, letting him swing more and demanding less of his mp. I'd suggest single target haste for SCH, but um.. SCH already seems to be a very powerful and flexible mage.



Make Fast Cast faster. Recast times can stay as they are though.

reason: RDM needs more swing time for better DOT. He's still casting at least 2 refreshes, enspell, some enfeebles, and some cures, and probably protective spells like stoneskin. Good hybrids have low cast times on what they cast a lot of. DNCs JA's are fairly short and don't seem interrupt swinging. BLU physical spells are very fast as well. But boosting Fast Cast is not really RDM specific after all is it? Other jobs can have Fast Cast trait from gear and by subbing RDM.

So either Fast Cast itself allows for swinging during casting without interruption or its let's say 1.5x as fast as it is now, but recast reductions would stay the same. I suppose that'd make Loquacious Earring and other weak fast cast items a lot less laughable either way. I don't know how difficult this would be on the programming side, the making fast cast bypass the casting-induced melee delay (what is commonly being called Battle Cast in many ffxi forums). Maybe it isn't feasible. Boosting fast cast speed 1.5x would do well enough, but the cap would still be at 50% (which we presume is the cast speed cap). It'd put a RDM without AF hat or Relic body up around the same speed as a RDM wearing one of them.... an overall +10% to fast cast split between in trait #2 and #3.


Melee capability changes:
Make enspells stronger or introduce a 2nd tier that's not subbable, which are stronger. Boost up magic damage WS to scale higher with level and do better damage at lower TP. Boost archery a little bit. Boost Parry.

reason: Better DOT. RDM has to provide some viable damage. Since he's got to focus so much on accuracy and has weak weapon damage/attack, enspell is the best way to do this. Preferably this will not be enspell damage + items, but rather adjusting calculations on existing enspells or making a second tier of enspells that are calculated differently. It doesn't need to be a large boost. A max of around 30 with ~280ish enhancing skill would be fine.... about a 50% increase in other words.

Since enspells don's add to WS damage, we need to take a serious look at RDM available WS. All crap from Sword until Vorpal Blade, which requires a specific subjob. And even then RDM lacks accuracy and attack which are what that WS needs to do good damage. Sidewinder, needs a specific subjob and RDM's skill is too low to make it effective in xp. Raise archery to C+, that'd also help RDM be able to stick Demon arrows. Cyclone's not bad, though an AOE WS can be a liability in attracting adds. Evisceration's pretty good, and not obtained until like level 73. I suggest boosting the 3 magical sword WS's so their damage scales up to around 400ish at 100 TP by level 75, and extra TP increases them to at most 600ish. I don't see any harm in putting RDM archery up to where SAM's is (C+). It still forces specific subjob selection, and RDM have fairly weak bow options. But with 230 skill instead of 210 its at least an alternative. Parry's a stylistic change. Most of the small melee weapon jobs have good Parry skill since dagger and sword fighting styles involve a lot of parrying. B skill would be sufficient for a Fencer.



Make a RDM-only item with a latent effect of enhances Refresh and either Haste or Dia. The latent trigger is "when engaged". The enhanced effect can be one of the following:

refresh/haste are AOE and cost 120mp instead of 40mp
refresh/haste duration is doubled
refresh gains +1 tick, haste gains +5%, alternately refresh gains +1/tick and Dia gains 1/tick and +5% defense down

This should probably be an accessory slot for the convenience of not causing an equipment blink. It should be easy to obtain. If this is problematic because of engaging from the backline, I'm sure some other way to implement it as a JT or JA only usable during melee could be made as a workaround.


reasoning: AOE or duration improvement for these spells help the RDM have more swing time and thus better DOT, also reduce the load on his mp pool, which is smaller from eating sushi and using melee gear/subjob to frontline. Whereas boosted potency helps the RDM have more mp to work with over time and gives a carrot to the players who are generally opposed to RDM frontlining. Suddenly the RDM's main support buffs are stronger when he melees, and his backline replacements get some much needed additional mp recovery. In case you missed the bold and italics, the item would only provide one of these 3 suggested effects, I don't care which one. Any one of them would work to make frontlining easier on the RDM. Boosting potency of these buffs when meleeing seems the clear winner to me. It simultaneously helps our backline replacement's mp issues and gives a little more buff to our frontline companions.


What holds RDM back is community perceptions and strategies. RDM's damage is too low for frontlining. He's too busy casting and his mp pool is too stretched. Additionally, his mp recovery is king compared to other mages, forcing him into a backline niche since only RDM can go non-stop. If RDM can provide something extra by being in the frontline, if other backline healing jobs get a little boost to mp recovery, and if we find small ways to give RDM more swingtime and better damage, then RDM can change roles from backline support-caster & main-healer, to frontline support caster & light DD.


I guess I left out the last consideration, which was RDM's magic accuracy with a real weapon vs a staff from 51-75. Is that such a bad tradeoff for the capability to fit in a frontline role? Most enfeebles are cheap to cast after all. Other backliners and even NINs can also cast these same enfeebles. SMN, BLU, WHM, BRD, BLM are all capable of crowd control as well which is the real critical thing. Dia and Dispel pretty much always land even if you're naked.

I suppose SE could put in some hybrid armor sets in lower levels which are sort of like our current JSE. MP, accuracy, magic accruacy. At 72, Wise is pretty crappy melee gear and pretty crappy casting gear. Something like it the 40's it would be pretty nice though.


Does RDM's magey capability change because of any of this?

Depends on how fast cast is handled. RDM has 20% from traits, and 10% each from both AF and relic. If we boost small fast cast items but not AF/relic, and if we boost traits to say 30% total, then we pretty much keep RDM close its current cast speed range...(43% max current) say 30% no items, 40% with AF hat, 50% with relic body, and loquacious bumps up to 5%, but the total cap is still 50%. Then there's still a point to getting relic at least.

If battle cast can be implemented instead of increasing fast cast, then no, RDM's backline functionality doesn't change at all. WHM having hastera doesn't improve RDM backline magery. Other mp jobs getting an extra tick of autofrefresh doesn't change RDM backline magery. Changes to magic sword WS calculations, archery skill rank, parry skill rank, adding hybrid gear sets, and boosting enspell damage don't boost RDM backline magery. +33% potency boost or double duration or AOE refresh/haste that works only when the RDM is meleeing will not boost his backline magery. RDM melee soloing would be slightly enhanced, but RDM's don't melee solo really hard stuff. We either sleep/nuke or bind/dot/kite.




Summary

1) Give WHM hastera
2) Give all mp jobs except PLD and RDM autorefresh or a new fulltime autorefresh item, SMN gets level 2 since it has one already.
3) enspell damage boost ~50% either by change to existing spells (subbable for SCH AOE) or by second tier enspells (not subbable)
4) Battle Cast, which is melee not interrupted by spell casting or boost Fast Cast cast speed slightly(+5% to trait #2 and #3), but leave recast reduction where it is.
5) Archery to C+. Meh, just for Sidewinder to toy with /RNG. But also enables RDM to stick a demon arrow's defense down in xp.
6) Parry to B. Stylistic change mostly.
7) Boost Burning Blade, Red Lotus Blade, and Shining Blade damage. Mostly this change should be how they scale as we level so that they're fairly effective. 50-100 damage when we get them is fine, and scale it to ~400 by level 75. Additional TP boosts damage and accuracy, but not a whole lot more... max damage with loaded TP should be in line with Spirits Within and tier III nukes, around 600ish. These are still resistible like nukes BTW.
8) A boost to refresh and haste that is only available when a RDM is meleeing. This can be an item latent or job trait or job ability I suppose. The boosted effects I thought of first were (one only) +33% potency for Haste/Refresh, or it can be +5% dia defense down and +1/tick refresh, or it can be +100% duration Haste/Refresh, or it can be that refresh/haste can be AOE'd at triple mp cost. Ideally the point is to provide a benefit when the RDM is meleeing, preferably not just to the RDM's swing time and mp pool, but a tangible benefit to the party members as well.
9) Some hybrid gears in mid levels... similar to Wise gear. Acc, haste, enspell damage, mp, and magic accuracy are really where the focus should be.

I tried to make a strong change and a more moderate change alternative for most of these suggestions. I tired to provide improvements which would not make a RDM a better mage or soloist. I tried to boost some other jobs so that they could better fit the backline healer role RDM is in now, allowing RDM up front. Tried to provide suggestions that increased RDM's swing time and damage potential slightly, but left it with most of the limitations it currently has as a damage dealer. I tried to come up with an incentive for parties to want the RDM on the frontline.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Summary

1) Give WHM hastera

I presume you mean Hastega. Yay for stepping on SMN's toes.

2) Give all mp jobs except PLD and RDM autorefresh or a new fulltime autorefresh item, SMN gets level 2 since it has one already.

WHMs already do DD x5 + WHM x1merit parties as is. All this change would do is make it even easier to set up DDx5 + WHMx1--no one would would switch to DD x4 + RDM x1 + WHM x1 because of it. (They'd gladly switch out a DD for a BRD, of course.)

3) enspell damage boost ~50% either by change to existing spells (subbable for SCH AOE) or by second tier enspells (not subbable)

Would affect soloing a tad too much in S-E's view, I think.

4) Battle Cast, which is melee not interrupted by spell casting or boost Fast Cast cast speed slightly(+5% to trait #2 and #3), but leave recast reduction where it is.

Again, problematic in soloing scenarios.

5) Archery to C+. Meh, just for Sidewinder to toy with /RNG. But also enables RDM to stick a demon arrow's defense down in xp.

Soloing... ._.

6) Parry to B. Stylistic change mostly.

Don't think anyone cares about parrying, except maybe S-E.

7) Boost Burning Blade, Red Lotus Blade, and Shining Blade damage. Mostly this change should be how they scale as we level so that they're fairly effective. 50-100 damage when we get them is fine, and scale it to ~400 by level 75. Additional TP boosts damage and accuracy, but not a whole lot more... max damage with loaded TP should be in line with Spirits Within and tier III nukes, around 600ish. These are still resistible like nukes BTW.

We get Red Lotus Blade? Not natively, I think.

8) A boost to refresh and haste that is only available when a RDM is meleeing. This can be an item latent or job trait or job ability I suppose. The boosted effects I thought of first were (one only) +33% potency for Haste/Refresh, or it can be +5% dia defense down and +1/tick refresh, or it can be +100% duration Haste/Refresh, or it can be that refresh/haste can be AOE'd at triple mp cost. Ideally the point is to provide a benefit when the RDM is meleeing, preferably not just to the RDM's swing time and mp pool, but a tangible benefit to the party members as well.

You wrote "when engaged" or something like that earlier, right? I can engage from the back line just fine. "You, RDM. Engage from the back, but stay out of melee song range, OK?"

9) Some hybrid gears in mid levels... similar to Wise gear. Acc, haste, enspell damage, mp, and magic accuracy are really where the focus should be.

I don't see any problem with this; since I have no room for more gears, I don't have to worry about them! Except Magic Accuracy. Someday, I'd like to land Silence on Suzaku. Even just once, so I can screenshot it...

I tried to come up with an incentive for parties to want the RDM on the frontline.

They'll want RDM up front when RDM does damage on par with WAR/NIN. "Forget casting, dude. Just hit the darn birds. Let WHM or SCH do the cures."

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

5) Archery to C+. Meh, just for Sidewinder to toy with /RNG. But also enables RDM to stick a demon arrow's defense down in xp

Why should RDM Archery on par with SAM? Additionally, this steps on COR's toes, which has B+ Marksmanship. Finally, RDM has something that does Defense Down, its called Dia. You could also sub /DNC for Box Step for DEF down effect or even sub Blue for Wild Oats, which is VIT down.

So yeah, lots of ways to do this already.

[Karinya]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Interesting article, but its applicability to FFXI is questionable; we've had a tank-DD for a long time now, that routinely displaces specialists in *both* its roles. At the same time. (Their example of excess DDs pushing hybrids into their non-DD role is not, of course, pulled out of their hat; every MMO that has ever existed has had excess DDs. This says as much about the players as it does about the game design, I think. And what is the present thread if not the desire for one *more* job to hit things in addition to whatever else it does?)


Anyway, to return to the topic of RDM - I don't see why a melee update is likely or even necessarily desirable. That's probably what BLU and DNC are for. But with hypothetical hat firmly on head:

Magic Extension (trait)
Whenever you hit with a physical attack, the remaining time of all buffs and debuffs you cast that are currently running is increased by 1 second. (We already know the game tracks your buffs and debuffs because it tells you when they wear off.)

A longer lasting refresh/haste is a more efficient refresh/haste - debuffs too. (Although maybe it should be restricted to debuffs on the target you hit, so you can't extend a sleep by beating up a different mob.) It'd affect melee soloing, but not as seriously as a DPS change would - and that's not the problematic kind of RDM soloing anyway.

You don't have to steal DNC's entire mechanic - the crucial part is that whatever the benefit is, it has to depend on repeatedly hitting something. Otherwise there won't be enough incentive to repeatedly hit something (i.e. get off the back line). DNC doesn't melee for damage (or not just for damage) - it melees to be able to produce other effects. That makes it worthwhile on the front line even if it doesn't match the damage output of DDs. That's what RDM needs to steal to be welcome on the front line, even if you accomplish it in a different way.


In any case, forbid RDM from using staves, but give them an equivalent Macc trait at the same level (51). And maybe some new item for +hMP. Staves are a big part of what punishes RDMs for meleeing; in order to become more effective at it we need to be able to put/keep a weapon in our hand without sacrificing spell effectiveness. (And of course any change that could potentially stack with staves wouldn't reduce their dominance.)

Come to think about it... why forbid staves when you can replace them? (At least for RDM, they work fine for some jobs already)

Warlock's Shield
Lv. 51 RDM
Def: whatever
Increases magic accuracy and effectiveness (equivalent to the right staff)

Duelist's Shield
Lv. 71 RDM Rare/Ex
Def: more than the other one
Increases magic accuracy and effectiveness (equivalent to the right HQ staff)

Can't be stacked with a staff, but you can still swap in dark staff to rest (if you expect it to be worth the TP - which since you're not otherwise losing your TP every 5 seconds is potentially a real choice). Since it's a shield, it can be used with any existing sword or dagger, so it won't make them all obsolete by accident. (It will make other rdm usable shields obsolete for most purposes, but none of them were that great anyway.) Some staves would still have limited use - e.g. the int and elem skill on ice - but aside from that a rdm who only carried warlock's shield would perform just as effectively as one who swapped NQ staves, and wouldn't lose TP.

Of course, Duelist's Shield should be quested with something that tests your RDM skill. Something that anyone can attempt, but not everyone can complete (at least, not without some skill and perseverance). Something that works out all aspects of the RDM job, endurance, crowd control, healing, debuffing... maybe a multi-stage solo bcnm that requires different tactics for the different stages (and watch out for that overall time limit). That would be pretty awesome, and worthy of an item that's all 8 HQ staves in 1 while leaving your main hand free.


Neither suggestion improves RDM DPS (well, except so far as they allow you to *do* your DPS without gimping your spells), but either or both could shift the RDM playstyle.

[arkaine23]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I presume you mean Hastega. Yay for stepping on SMN's toes.

I meant what I typed. -ga for an offensive AOE spell, -ra for an AOE buff.

WHMs already do DD x5 + WHM x1merit parties as is. All this change would do is make it even easier to set up DDx5 + WHMx1--no one would would switch to DD x4 + RDM x1 + WHM x1 because of it. (They'd gladly switch out a DD for a BRD, of course.)

WHM's still have to rest. G. Colibri can't be discussed here lol, they don't do as much damage as most other mob types. 1-2 more/tick is still not even a cure III every minute.... but it all adds up, and i admit that /SCH and SMN instant recovery of chunks of mp and other mp-conserving factors come pretty close to what these three backline jobs need to take over, and let RDM frontline.

Would affect soloing a tad too much in S-E's view, I think.


Again, problematic in soloing scenarios.


Soloing... ._.

The only impacts on soloing would be faster killing via melee or (cermonial/enspell solos), and maybe a slightly easier time with getting spells off when buffs are down, like Ichi in particular. I evaluated it and I'm proposing Fast Cast speed/recast reduction change from 2:1 ratio to 3:1 ratio. So trait 1 is 15% cast speed instead of 10%, but recast reduction is still only 5%. Triats 2 & 3 are 7.5% cast speed increase and their recast reductions are still 2.5% each. AF/relic go from 10%/5% to 15%/10%. RDM becomes able to hit 45% cast speed reduction with either relic or af. he can hit the cap with both AF and relic or with one of them and loquacious. That may devalue the relic body somewhat, but most RDM don't have it or do and barely use it; and it still reduces recast even when cast speed is capped. By contrast RDM have 20%/10% natively, and typically roll with 30%/15% with their hat. This would put them at 30%/10% natively and 45%/15% with their hat. Keep in mind that fast cast items are at best a swap in and swap out for self-target spells only, when meleeing. They don't have good melee stats, nor enough value to wear full time when trying to deal damage.

The small speed benefit from faster casting and slightly stronger enspells is not going to boost soloing so much that RDM ditches parties all together. RDM soloing requires huge amounts of casting the same buffs and debuffs over and over.

Don't think anyone cares about parrying, except maybe S-E.

Agreed. Tanks like it capped of course.

We get Red Lotus Blade? Not natively, I think.

Not natively. But there're some times a frontline RDM would pick a sub that has it, and in level ranges where Vorpal Blade is still not an option. There's also those situations with very evasive mobs, where consistency of a good magical damage WS would be preferred over a wildly varying Vorpal Blade.

You wrote "when engaged" or something like that earlier, right? I can engage from the back line just fine. "You, RDM. Engage from the back, but stay out of melee song range, OK?"

Yeah, if you've ever tried it you'd know how much of a pain in the @$$ it is for a mage to do. Otherwise we'd do it for the benefit of our Shields and Parry's for strays mobs hits. Logistical implementation into SE's code for the game is not what I'm going for here. The idea is that it can only happen when a RDM is actively meleeing. I used "when engaged" because it already exists as a latent trigger in the game. The important thing is to realize that there should be small benefits to the backline mages, the RDM, and the frontline melees only because the RDM is meleeing on the frontline.

I don't see any problem with this; since I have no room for more gears, I don't have to worry about them! Except Magic Accuracy. Someday, I'd like to land Silence on Suzaku. Even just once, so I can screenshot it...

We always like new gear. Every job does, especially the ones SE neglects to change. Inventory constraints are still a serious issue for RDMs, mostly because it can gear itself for everything if it can just carry it all. I have silenced Suzaku. I don't do a lot of sky, so I didn't realize I should have taken a pic.

They'll want RDM up front when RDM does damage on par with WAR/NIN. "Forget casting, dude. Just hit the darn birds. Let WHM or SCH do the cures."

RDM damage is great on Colibri. A 50% stronger enspell should add about 7% damage to the RDM's total (DD RDM parse around 12-15% of their damage from enspell). If the backline WHM or SMN handles all the hasting the RDM is doing only 2-3 refreshes (hopefully) and enspell every 3 minutes, dia on every pull. An extra 5% defense down on dia II or III should nicely contribute to party damage via the other 3 DDs, and the RDM/NIN should be able to pull his weight in damage acting as a 4th, while still having all his usual spells for occasions they're needed. Some might not be very accurate and his cures might be a little less potent, but 95% of the time his offensive spells shouldn't be needed, and the healer in back should be solid on mp.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

WHM's still have to rest. G. Colibri can't be discussed here lol, they don't do as much damage as most other mob types. 1-2 more/tick is still not even a cure III every minute.... but it all adds up, and i admit that /SCH and SMN instant recovery of chunks of mp and other mp-conserving factors come pretty close to what these three backline jobs need to take over, and let RDM frontline.

Actually, I had this discussion in my social LS last weekend; most people thought it was perfectly fine to do single WHM party (sans RDM) for Mamool Ja as well as Greater Colibri. In fact, every WHM said it's doable or have already done it. ._.

As for soloing, S-E probably already thinks RDM is too strong. That's why any proposed change which can improve it further would be heavily scrutinized.

RDM damage is great on Colibri. A 50% stronger enspell should add about 7% damage to the RDM's total (DD RDM parse around 12-15% of their damage from enspell). If the backline WHM or SMN handles all the hasting the RDM is doing only 2-3 refreshes (hopefully) and enspell every 3 minutes, dia on every pull. An extra 5% defense down on dia II or III should nicely contribute to party damage via the other 3 DDs, and the RDM/NIN should be able to pull his weight in damage acting as a 4th, while still having all his usual spells for occasions they're needed. Some might not be very accurate and his cures might be a little less potent, but 95% of the time his offensive spells shouldn't be needed, and the healer in back should be solid on mp.

My point was that if RDM isn't turned into an exceptional DD melee, it would still be:
1. Stuck with heavy spell load (which isn't so bad, IMO), making it more suited to be in the back line than front (like now); or,
2. Get "replaced" by another mage due to the improvements you suggested.

By "replaced", I mean DD RDMs get kicked, or parties simply pick up a WHM instead of waiting around for a RDM to pop. "Good" just isn't good enough when it comes to DD'ing.

Pecking order for DDs is pretty well established for meripo, from what I can tell:

WAR > SAM > MNK > "The Rest" > LOL's.

Even if RDM is beefed up so much that it matches "The Rest" (which it really shouldn't be), a RDM would still be more useful as full-time mage instead of part-time or full-time melee.

* * *

I don't think most RDMs wants to see RDM to become just another DD. Instead, many are asking for more use for melee skills in exp/merit parties. However, none of the suggestion is likely to work well enough to move RDM up front without causing problems.

It's really, really hard for me to sympathize with the desire to strengthen RDM melee'ing, when Red Mage already enjoys such wide popularity, and the another job has a working melee-mage model for exp'ing for people who really hate back line mage duty.

I'm PLD75 and RDM75, and when it comes down to melee'ing, my PLD wins. (OK-ish gears for both, I think; nothing exceptional, but have the basics like Haubergeon, Scorpion Harness (or Nashra Manteel), Peacock Charm, Dusk Gloves, Joyeuse, etc. covered.)

Now, my PLD can help cure (like RDM) and DD (better than RDM), comes with auto-refresh, and can Flash, Shield Bash, Cover, or use Sentinel to draw critters off of dying DDs--you'd think it should be nearly as popular as RDM for meripo invite since I can make partying so safer and add good amount of damage. However, it's just not wanted. At all.

No one wants a "DD-Lite + Utility" perosn in the front line. ._. Parties rather have a BRD or COR for fill that last slot, or another "real" DD. Heck, they'd take another BRD gladly even when they have one already--they don't want a DD PLD now, and won't want a semi-DD RDM tomorrow. Turning RDM into a DD-Lite+Utility job really isn't doing the job any favor, to be honest, and the job doesn't need a favor to begin with.

[Cerealkiller]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I've been reading this article for the last hr between Cerberus ints, very entertaining, always enjoy the discussion of RDM going mele. I honestly dont ever see them quote "fixing" it, ive been a rdm ever since Hades was made, it was my first job. Being Elvaan and being that i spent alot of time working out different setups for mele, id honestly say, and im absolutely certain SE is well aware of the fact that RDM does not mele when soling, never have and regardless of any fix probably never will, we are all about longevity, simply outlasting the mob we intend to kill. Simply put, any mele fix would have to put RDMs mele ability on par with that of a war or at the least a nin. No pt in the days of TP burn is going to bother with low dmg DD, theyd rather have something more efficent. I read somewhere in this thread, and i couldnt find it to quote it, that they had seen posts on Alla that prove RDM mele can out parse thfs and nins, id have to say those parses are very skewed, im also 75thf and theres no way a rdm is touching my dmg on thf (hate when ppl do parses with poorly geared thfs are on one side) as for the nin, id have to say the same, as is, rdm just cant do much, any pld will tell you that sword dmg just isnt very good, only sword in the game worth having to DD with is Excal, its completely beastly, other than that, sword just fails...

I am in full agreement that something needs to be done to adjust refresh, i would love to see refresh II be added or something to that effect. Ppl would certainly cry over it, but then ppl cry about every change SE ever made.

To adjust for front line, i honestly think they would have to dramatically alter something, possibly base atributes or as mentioned a job ability that would alter those attributes, my base str at 75rdm is 66, where as a 75pld is at 75 base str (assuming elvaan, and i use pld since they mainly use sword) it doesnt seem like much but its 9 str not even 5/5 str merits makes up for that. Also the addition of gears would be excellent to add acc and atk as well as stats that would increase mele potential. As for the initial suggestion of enspells, fundemental problem is, it would never work with staff without significant change in rdm staff ability, seeing as we have no staff skill.
To truly gain front line status, rdm would need these stats increases as well as new gears, and possibly new weapons, will be interesting to see what the nyzul relics do (especially for rdm), but at the end of the day itll still be a mage with a sword and most ppl will prolly still put us at the back since they loose too much by puttin us up front.
sry for the txt wall, just my thoughts, hope they do something though, RDM needs an update just cause they never give us nothing D:

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I am in full agreement that something needs to be done to adjust refresh, i would love to see refresh II be added or something to that effect. Ppl would certainly cry over it, but then ppl cry about every change SE ever made.

Hold it.

Explain why Refresh needs an adjustment.

[Pteryx]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Hold it.

Explain why Refresh needs an adjustment.

I have to echo the sentiment here, and add that any more Refresh we get would come with a community expectation that we use it on ourselves, from the back line, to become even better pink mages. It wouldn't help us melee in group situations at all, even if it were self-target-only. -- Pteryx

[arkaine23]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

No one wants a "DD-Lite + Utility" person in the front line. ._. Parties rather have a BRD or COR for fill that last slot, or another "real" DD. Heck, they'd take another BRD gladly even when they have one already--they don't want a DD PLD now, and won't want a semi-DD RDM tomorrow. Turning RDM into a DD-Lite+Utility job really isn't doing the job any favor, to be honest, and the job doesn't need a favor to begin with.

What you said about them wanting a BRD.... See that's the only real way to convince the playerbase... if RDM is an average melee DD (preferably it gets a little boost here) while it refreshes the backline, it has to also manage to boost party kill speed by some new trick. Then its DD value is not so much a consideration, but its buff effect to the party is.

That's why I suggested a stronger Dia, given by an item latent that triggers when meleeing. Maybe that's not enough. Originally I was thinking of boosting haste by 5%, but I see that DNCs aren't sought out just for haste samba. And also, I really think frontline RDM can't be handling haste duty, unless its -ra, or the duration is much longer than it is now.



As for changing refresh... Adding 1/tick or boosting duration would be a great improvement. I'd like to see cast time on it reduced to 2 seconds. Which with fast cast would be more like 1.3 seconds. but whatever you do directly to refresh or haste or by adding job abilities, effects RDM on the backline also, unless there are limitations/trigger conditions only for meleeing.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

As for changing refresh... Adding 1/tick or boosting duration would be a great improvement. I'd like to see cast time on it reduced to 2 seconds. Which with fast cast would be more like 1.3 seconds.

This would break the balance as it presently exists.

• RDM - fixed duration, single target, MP cost.
• BRD - fixed duration, AoE, Lengthy casting time, two separated tiers.
• COR - fixed duration, AoE, bonus applied for SMN presence, otherwise randomized results, varied amounts of time spent doubling-up.

Granted, BRD can use Nightengale to double the duration effect of Ballad, but that's once every 20 minutes on first merit. COR gets Winning streak which enhances Phantom Roll durations by 20 seconds each merit. Snake Eye can also let us sometimes tweak the value of a Roll by 1.

The pain we have to deal with is positioning, which is slowly becoming alleviated. PLDs are more capable of being self-sufficient if they play it right at higher levels with gear and Sanction. BRD is getting a single target ability in time. COR can sub /DNC to help with frontline MP where Aspir Samba is applicable, otherwise they have to sometimes "split" a double-up to the frontline if mages and PLD aren't lined up.

There's a con to each type of refresh, even DNC's Aspir Samba and there was meant to me one. Why should RDM get the best of everything?

[Akashimo]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Why should RDM get the best of everything?

Because the pimp hat said so.

[Cerealkiller]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

why should they adjust refresh?
simple, something to increase duration or give more mp, hell brd gets 7 tick with g horn, why doesnt rdm get 4 with something, cor gets 4, 5 with a smn in pt, rdm again is left with nothing, it wont truly help with mele, but i was commenting on someone else stating they fealt an adjustment should be made. Everyone here seems to think rdm is the end all be all, which it truly isnt, its just very good at lasting indefinately against many foes, any adjustment made wouldnt change that simple fact, but it would make life a bit easier for hard workin rdms if we got alil more mp or if refresh lasted a bit longer.
As to the "balance" brd > all in the world of refresh (cor in second with 5max), they can get a disgusting amount, consider what the best possiable refresh from a brd could be, assume they have G horn, and they use SV, thats a 14/tick refresh, ill grant you its AoE, still 14 is so huge it isnt even funny, rdm on the other hand can 2hr and spam refresh on themself while still getting 3/tick, this is my point, adjust rdm so that something can be done to increase refresh, a new ability to enhance potency of spells might be an idea, maybe make it double duration or increase effectiveness. We still wont have the best of everything, (i dont think we ever have(but you can debate that)) we will just have the ability to fill a role alil easier and add flexibility in more extreme situations.
Its certainly unfair to say that just because rdm refresh spell is single target it should be left completely in the dust by the AoE refresh spells, or that it shouldnt find an adjustment somewhere, but consider the simple numbers rdm 3/tick no matter what, cor can range from 4 to 5 with smn in pt, and brd hits the motherload ranging from 3mp/tick to as much as 14mp/tick, i hope that clears up why they should adjust refresh

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

BRD gets 7 with G-horn, true, but that's no reason to to adjust refresh, G-Horn is RELIC.

COR can get up to 5 MP per tick, but they need a SMN present for that to happen and even then, its somewhat random.

Refresh is 3 MP per tick, single target. No instruments, relic upgrades, merits or gambling to tweak it. Arguing BRD's G-Horn is poor reasoning, not every BRD gets one - every RDM gets Refresh.