Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

[Kittyneko]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

A quick thought that comes up in my mind.
I've levelled Red Mage to 75 solely to use for endgame and solo (NM) purposes.
I levelled it from level 9 to 75 within a very short period of time, basically just because I really hated playing Red Mage during exp party's, mainly because Red Mage is appointed as "Main Healer" a lot. I hate healing magic. During levelling, I haven't really missed meleeing. Even if Red Mage would make a good melee player, it's other duties are the main priority. Refresh, Haste, enfeebling etc.
I switch(ed) through so much equipment for different type of spells, I wouldn't even want to carry melee equipment as well.

The issue is: Can Red Mage play a melee role? Sure. Does a Red Mage have more important things to do other than melee? Yes.

[Deeke]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Heh, I was expecting to open this thread up today and be greeted with a bevy of replies tearing the Endaze idea a new hole. Yay for that not being entirely the case! A few issues have been raised that I have opinions on, so I'll quickly run through them.

It does allow RDM to be useful in another capacity, the question is, who's going to stand back and main heal in a merit party then? Would RDM DD be decent enough to bring in a WHM to main heal so the RDM can melee?

Well, to the first line - if necessary, then RDM will stand back and main heal. As per usual. I don't perceive any update out-and-out taking RDM off the backline full-time. It seems more likely that RDM's current established roles will remain as they are now, but there will just be an extra option granted to them (of comparitive worth) which involves them pulling out their weapon. Another thing to consider is the proposed Enstone buff, which according to the original idea offers +VIT and damage down. That in itself is a form of healing.

The question of would a RDM's damage output be 'decent enough' would typically boil down to each individual RDM's melee build (which will obviously require sacrificing gears for other aspects of the RDM's job). The point to bear in mind though is that this Endaze suggestion isn't defined by the damage output, but rather by the buffs.

That being said, I'm not sure how well it would be received for RDMs to "step on DNC's toes." We already have so much as it is, and you know how many people bitch and moan if RDM gets anything. Or just the thought of RDM getting something.

Which is quite true. However this whole thread merely addresses something SE themselves are maybe looking at. So whether SE do eventually act on it or not, what other jobs subsequently think of an update if it does happen are all moot points within this discussion I guess. As we all know, a RDM-frontline update is on SE's radar. Community reaction and attitude towards that is another topic entirely.

The sort of solos everyone is afraid of making easier, don't use meleé capability. In fact, meleé would be a liability. It's spells that work the magic(no pun intended), in these scenarios, which is a big reason I'm against new spell additions in any form.

Sorry, I should clarify. The point I'm trying to make is that RDM-soloing capabilities are balanced overall. There are some things we can solo that are simply crazy, but on the other hand we don't tend to fare so well soloing T+ straight-up melee. We can solo somethings that, arguably, no single player should be able to. There are other things we can't solo. I didn't mean to suggest that RDM-solo might become broken from an update because it would allow us to do what we already do.. but even better. By broken, I meant more that it further increase our soloing options. We can take on enough things as it is - I just don't think RDMs need to be boosted in other areas of solo also. That seems too much.

(Also BP, I can't help but worry what kind of an impact your proposed changes to Fast Cast would do for Utsusemi usage. o.o; )

Also, there would have to be some provision actually allowing us to use swords and daggers. A party leader(and the community in general), could just as easily say "You don't need to wear a sword to cast En-spells, you can do it just fine while keeping your staff on." Basically, this proposal would have to come in tandem with some change that frees us from staves.

Not quite. A RDM would actually need to use sword or dagger - they aren't going to connect with a staff, simple as that. RDM accuracy is a big enough issue as it is without attempting to use a subjob level weapon. So the RDM is forced to make that mACC sacrifice if they want to get up front. It's not a nice sacrifice, but it's certainly conditional.

Why does everyone's "job ideas" basically boil down to stealing abilities from other jobs?

When SE gives a new spell or ability, even if it bears a similarity to something another job has, the mechanics behind the ability are vastly different. What makes Sambas different from Enspells or DRK's Blood Weapon is the very fact that it benefits other party members and that its technically not a party buff, but abuff just for the DNC or /DNC. If the DNC doesn't touch the mob often enough, the others in PT can't benefit.

With all due respect, I'm hesitant to reply to you Kitten. I'm not a regular poster on these boards, but I've lurked a fair bit and I notice that you have difficulty taking opinions which conflict with your own objectionally. That's not to say your opinions aren't valid, but as someone with a different opinion to yours I can't help but question why I should even bother raising it in comparison to your own. If that makes sense.

But what the hell.

I make no disguise of the fact that the Endaze's basic mechanic is lifted straight from DNC. But what exactly's new about that? The game is filled with similar mechanics that are just presented differently. Endaze wouldn't be the same as daze. Similar basic mechanic, sure, but that's where the similarity ends. Endaze uses a magic skill for calculating potency and it's non-receivable by the user. A frontline RDM won't play just like a DNC as there is no emphasis on TP. Not only that but whilst DNCs have near-instant abilities, a RDM using Endaze is going to have other focuses and more difficulty in making use of their Endaze because of their spell-casting duties. The point being, it isn't a direct steal. Similar yes, a straight copy no.

The OP's concept goes too far in that it steps on the toes of DNC, COR and BRD.

I addressed DNC up there. As for BRDs and CORs, again: why must this step on the job's toes? Could it not possibly complement them? I'm a newb. A big newb. I don't even have either of these two jobs unlocked, let alone much experience playing alongside them. I honestly couldn't tell you the difference between a madrigal and a minuet and all I really know about COR is that they have a funny {White Mage Die} thing. So I can't claim to speak from a place where I have experience in what it's like to be a BRD or COR. Forgive any ignorance on my part. But don't both these jobs have abilities which inflict enemies with elemental weaknesses? Why not allow those elemental weaknesses to grant a RDM's Endaze buffs a further moderate increase? Let's allow Endaze buffs to stack with rolls and songs. Complementary jobs rather than jobs competing for effectiveness. The Endazes as described above in the OP aren't exactly overflowing with options. There's only really three types that would ever be used as far as I can see. I don't see how this could be seen as moving in on BRD/COR's territories in anything but the most flimsy of ways.

I'm fully aware that this is a relevant issue. I myself mentioned all three jobs of DNC, COR and BRD in the OP. But whilst I agree with the relevance, I'm not convinced that the issues are particularly weighty.

And if the point was simply that Endaze would step on DNC/BRD/COR's shoes because of sheer ability similarity, well that's another moot point to me. SE are fine with toe-stepping. See SCH for proof. Don't get me wrong: I love SCH; from all that I've read I think it looks to be a fine, balanced job. But it undoubtedly 'steps on other jobs' toes' in the sense of sheer capability-similarity, far more so than this fictitious Endaze thing. I'm cool with SCH doing that. It allows a greater chance of building a party with the desired elements. I don't see jobs sharing capabilities, effect or theme-wise, as anything particularly 'bad', so long as appropriate balance is factored in.

And lastly, just to briefly comment on AOE buffs and why I think they're a viable answer to the backline-RDM issue. No: RDM isn't known for AOEs. But, quite frankly, I think these are the best solution to the SE-concern because a) parties love them, which addresses getting RDMs asked to be up on the frontline and b) RDM shouldn't be receiving any self-boosts because (in my opinion) it messes dangerously with the job's current soloing balance.

Deeke's idea was to simply use that popular support capability to our advantage--moving us to the front rather than keeping us in back. We know it has flaws, that's why we're wearing our thinking caps.

Not 'thinking caps', Hypothesizing Hats!! But yes, pretty much exactly. Personally, the idea given in the OP is to dangle a carrot sufficiently juicy enough that it will actually get noticed. Valuable party buffs can do that. I'm honestly not sure about the appeal of a RDM simply swinging moderately harder himself. I just don't see party leaders giving much of a crap.

Dont fix it if it aint broken.

Another forum member that I'm apprehensive to reply to. It'd be cool if this thread didn't descend into yet another tired melee-rdm 'discussion', so all I'm going to say is that, MrMageo I see you as being a non-typical RDM (take that as a compliment if you want). You're the type of player I was referring to when I mentioned:

The specific issue that SE have stated concern over is quite simply:

That RDMs are nearly always on the backlines.

(Yes there are exceptions, both game-circumstantial and player-individual, but backline-only is inarguably the Common Trend.)

What I'd like is for you to acknowledge that the backline-melee issue is a general community issue. Furthermore, an issue that will never be changed by 'Educating The People' or 'Proving Them Wrong'. If you honestly believe that this might happen, you should take off the Hypothesizing Hat and wear your Happy La-La Land Hat instead, as it's more befitting. Fact is, it's SE playing with the idea. So it must have some merit to it.

On to the topic at hand I would prefer some type of Scholarish ability like the dark arts/ light arts thing.

It would increase our Weapon Skills/STR/DEX/AGI etc while sacraficing our Magical skills while active. 10% looks like a fair number because it wont push us over the threshold of becoming a high damaging class.

and

Give a Berzerk-like boost to Enspells with some kind of penalty in exchange, perhaps such as losing 3 MP per swing while its active, which would oppose the benefit of Refresh. This way, a RDM can briefly move up to the frontline as needed, but not all the time. They would have to carefully consider how to use the ability and SE wouldn't break RDM by overbuffing them.

This is the other option I see also I suppose. Assuming through playtesting that the melee-boost offered makes it worthwhile to use, I can see it being a viable way to getting RDMs up front, at least on a staggered, occasional basis in between castings. I like that the concept adds a penalty to magic, Kitten's mp-drain idea makes sense especially.

The biiiig issue I have is that it's a melee-boost for the RDM themself. I think by now you know how I personally feel about that. It opens ever more options for RDM on their own to go about and do other things they weren't previously able to attempt. Again, in the current game, RDM solo is at a nice balance - can do some things, can't do other things. I'm wary of anything that alters that in the favour of 'can do'. The number of available types of RDM-solo activity does't need adding to.

The issue is: Can Red Mage play a melee role? Sure. Does a Red Mage have more important things to do other than melee? Yes.

Not quite. I think the issue actually is: does RDM have a single community-accepted frontline role within the game?

SE seem to be worried that the answer is a no.


Which leads nicely on to the alternative answer to "Does a Red Mage have more important things to do other than melee?"

That alternative answer being: "Yes, for the time-being at least."

[BurningPanther]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Give a Berzerk-like boost to Enspells with some kind of penalty in exchange, perhaps such as losing 3 MP per swing while its active, which would oppose the benefit of Refresh. This way, a RDM can briefly move up to the frontline as needed, but not all the time. They would have to carefully consider how to use the ability and SE wouldn't break RDM by overbuffing them.

I like it. At 75, I can currently hit about 18-19 additional damage with Enblizzard, 20 on Iceday. a Berserk effect boosting damage... maybe another 20 or 30 points per cast?

Theoretically, I wouldn't mind if the only addition to RDM was that our Enspells did 40-50 damage a swing with just capped skill at 75.

Of course, I like my antenna idea, but I'm willing to sacrifice that concept.

I like the antenna idea too, but unless it's potential bonuses equaled or exceeded staves(without stacking with them), then there's no promotion for us to pick up a sword rather than a staff.

I promote shortening of En-spell breakpoints because it allows for a higher damage potential(which is the the start and end of frontline activity), offers a somewhat unique niche for RDM on frontline, in the form consistent magical damage, and, in the comfort of knowing our damage is relatively sound(in En-spells), we can gear toward actually making contact with with the mob(re: Acc gear).

While I'm happy with the MAcc boost we were given on 10 Mar, I propose re-tooling the MAcc calculated at time of casting. No sense we should have to wear Chasuble, Wise cap, braconi(and like-products) full-time to keep up the cap. That is, unless they plan on introducing more gear like it.

The issue is: Can Red Mage play a melee role? Sure. Does a Red Mage have more important things to do other than melee? Yes.

Well that's the point, isn't it? We're at a place where RDM meleé is extremely situational, the general atmosphere is trying to make it more commonplace.

While we're sitting here brainstorming new traits and abilities, part of a meleé update that is just important is to break what's keeping us on the backline.

Sorry, I should clarify. The point I'm trying to make is that RDM-soloing capabilities are balanced overall. There are some things we can solo that are simply crazy, but on the other hand we don't tend to fare so well soloing T+ straight-up melee. We can solo somethings that, arguably, no single player should be able to. There are other things we can't solo. I didn't mean to suggest that RDM-solo might become broken from an update because it would allow us to do what we already do.. but even better. By broken, I meant more that it further increase our soloing options. We can take on enough things as it is - I just don't think RDMs need to be boosted in other areas of solo also. That seems too much.

In that respect, you are right. However, the balance is backwards. We're soloing mobs we shouldn't be, while struggling against things we shouldn't.

More to the flavor of the game, what we do solo is subjective to people's opinions. The game remains group-based, and it's in group settings where our meleé capabilities flounder. Because it flounders in group settings in a group based game, there's an imbalance there.

Does that answer the very real solo phenomenon? No. But the indirect enhancements I proposed wouldn't break the solo balance that was created.

If anything, the developers could probably do well explore avenues that make those things that shouldn't be soloed truly impossible to solo, without penalizing or excluding magic users in general(the way ToAU monsters do).

(Also BP, I can't help but worry what kind of an impact your proposed changes to Fast Cast would do for Utsusemi usage. o.o; )

You know, I was thinking the same. The only solution I came up with was simply to drastically shorten the cast times of individual spells in our roster. Since Utsusemi is not a native RDM spell, and there is no direct boost to Fast Cast, there'd be no exploitation of Utsusemi's timer.

But then, I was reading the thread on FFXIclopedia, and someone came up with something even better. They proposed that, rather than reducing cast times, simply reducing or removing the casting animations, allowing the character to function normally after casting a spell. A change to game mechanics(rather than a RDM-specific trait), would allow BLU, DRK, PLD, and NIN to benefit from this too. The post can be found here.

Not quite. A RDM would actually need to use sword or dagger - they aren't going to connect with a staff, simple as that. RDM accuracy is a big enough issue as it is without attempting to use a subjob level weapon. So the RDM is forced to make that mACC sacrifice if they want to get up front. It's not a nice sacrifice, but it's certainly conditional.

You know, looking back over your original post, you mentioned that... dunno how I missed it.

However, I take exception the to the popularity in sacrificing MAcc. The problem is that RDM is a hybrid job. It's meant to function with both magic and meleé. At the least, Acc and MAcc are our bread and butter. I can agree with losing out on potency more magically based weapons offer(and damage more meleé based weapons offer), but there is a bare minimum MAcc we must be provided to properly function, and since 50+, the staves have been the only item to provide that minimum. Our magical capability is simply left flopping about again unless an equal alternative is introduced.

BLU has shown us that meleé and magical capability can go hand-in-hand, it's time to make it work for RDM as well.

And lastly, just to briefly comment on AOE buffs and why I think they're a viable answer to the backline-RDM issue. No: RDM isn't known for AOEs. But, quite frankly, I think these are the best solution to the SE-concern because a) parties love them, which addresses getting RDMs asked to be up on the frontline and b) RDM shouldn't be receiving any self-boosts because (in my opinion) it messes dangerously with the job's current soloing balance.

Like I said, while I think the En-daze is conceptually a great idea, it comes too close to mimicking party-range support jobs, which is a concept I feel is opposite the flavor the job and a road we shouldn't be traveling.

However, that doesn't mean that I feel nothing should be done with it.

Consider if you will: RDM support works largely around single-target effects. Perhaps if we borrowed a page out of THFs book? Taking the "En-daze" effect and making it sort of line-of-sight; anyone directly opposite the mob(as you are fighting it), and perhaps anyone directly behind them or yourself, gaining the benefits of the effect. In essence, a very SATA-esque approach.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Well that's the point, isn't it? We're at a place where RDM meleé is extremely situational, the general atmosphere is trying to make it more commonplace.

While we're sitting here brainstorming new traits and abilities, part of a meleé update that is just important is to break what's keeping us on the backline.

Perhaps Red Mage will obtain a short temporary melee role, along the lines of how a Dancer melee's.
Red Mage has a lot of oppertunities to fight monsters, especially in solo occasions and at level 75.

I really doubt Red Mage needs to waste mp on En-spells and what not in order to be able to melee among others in Experience Points party's. I melee'd with Red Mage up to level 40 ish. Do we really need to melee to level 75? It's called Red Mage.
So a lot of you want to see it different and perhaps it will. But is it really a problem that a Red Mage has to use Magic? Ofcourse not!

Melee Red Mage is one of my favourite non-sense discussions among "FFXi vs. WoW" and "PS2 limitations are a pest."

If you want to melee so badly, ask your pt if it's ok to swing your sword. Fact is; they're usually OK with it unless the monsters use some kind of annoying AoE ability. Several times i've had meleeing Red Mage's. It's not that big of a deal. If it works out for you, great, you might be able to put out some real damage too. If it doesn't, you just convinced 5 party members that it's a stupid idea. ><

Also, as it's usually ok to melee up to level 40, a few levels higher, say 60, you can swing away in Campaign again. I like playing melee in Campaign, but as I said before, I wouldn't even want to in exp party's.

A White Mage with ninja sub can put out some good damage at certain levels.
A Bard at level 75 with the right equipment can as well.

[Deeke]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

But then, I was reading the thread on FFXIclopedia, and someone came up with something even better. They proposed that, rather than reducing cast times, simply reducing or removing the casting animations, allowing the character to function normally after casting a spell. A change to game mechanics(rather than a RDM-specific trait), would allow BLU, DRK, PLD, and NIN to benefit from this too. The post can be found here.

The petty child within me insists that I mention that Silette yoinked mentioned idea from this earlier thread.

Suffice to say that my inate terror of imbalancing RDM-solo is a recent change of opinion on my part. (Kyreth's words made a lot of sense to me.)

[BurningPanther]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

The petty child within me insists that I mention that Silette yoinked mentioned idea from this earlier thread.

Suffice to say that my inate terror of imbalancing RDM-solo is a recent change of opinion on my part. (Kyreth's words made a lot of sense to me.)

I remember that thread.

I see where Kyreth(and you), are coming from, but you seem adamant about preserving a balance that was disrupted to begin with. If it means realizing the job's meleé concept, then perhaps we should be losing out on the ability to solo HNMs and the like, but that's for the developers to decide, as it's they who have ever had the power to stop RDM from soloing Genbu(and co.), but have done nothing about it.

In the context of that thread, Kyreth was intent on thinking in extremes. No one's asking for a STR boost and Attack Bonus traits. To ask for something like that really would tread into dedicated DD territory, and it's been stated, time and again, that no one here wants that. However, it is possible to bolster meleé capability without directly improving damage, as I outlined in various possibilities here. Nothing directly or vastly increasing attack(except the En-spell idea), nothing allowing us to suddenly exp off NMs. RDM solo is--first off--just that. SOLO. It's incidental to the larger game, which is group play, in the face of which our meleé flounders. Second, nothing offered thus far will rock the balance that already exists when solo. We'll solo a few meleéd NMs only a little quicker(but enough to make the larger RDM population happy, while the scant handful that like to go after heavier NMs/HNMs can continue unmolested.

I really doubt Red Mage needs to waste mp on En-spells and what not in order to be able to melee among others in Experience Points party's.

Good thing En-spells are so cheap. ANd, you know, Refresh.

I melee'd with Red Mage up to level 40 ish. Do we really need to melee to level 75?

Given that the job is billed as a battle mage, and that S-E is making considerations to move back to that, I'd expect no less.

It's called Red Mage.
So a lot of you want to see it different and perhaps it will. But is it really a problem that a Red Mage has to use Magic? Ofcourse not!

Melee Red Mage is one of my favourite non-sense discussions among "FFXi vs. WoW" and "PS2 limitations are a pest."

Your argument is no less nonsensical.

You seem to think that just because we bear the term "Mage" in our title, that we should be relegated solely to back line. Exactly what is Blue Mage then, I wonder?

There's no problem at all that RDM uses magic. No one's questioning it. It's a given. But there's no reason that a front-line intended job should be consigned to casting on the backline.

If you want to melee so badly, ask your pt if it's ok to swing your sword.

Which brings me back to my point. We shouldn't be asking permission. It should be commonplace, with backlining the less common practice.

Fact is; they're usually OK with it unless the monsters use some kind of annoying AoE ability. Several times i've had meleeing Red Mage's. It's not that big of a deal. If it works out for you, great, you might be able to put out some real damage too. If it doesn't, you just convinced 5 party members that it's a stupid idea. ><

The AoE argument doesn't hold water. Unless the mob AoE's Silence, the RDM's survival odds are far stronger than any DD, simply because we can protect ourselves. I'm more confident any RDM will remain standing after an AoE move than the meleé he's standing beside.

My point re-emerges that we shouldn't be prostrating ourselves in humility to properly frontline in a party. We should be able to without people automatically rolling their eyes. It shouldn't be a matter of somehow convincing the players we put up good numbers, solid measures should already be in place to provide for good numbers, while maintaining a casting presence. After that, it's all up to individual player skill, as it is any other time.

Also, as it's usually ok to melee up to level 40, a few levels higher, say 60, you can swing away in Campaign again. I like playing melee in Campaign, but as I said before, I wouldn't even want to in exp party's.

"Up to level 40" is not "Up to level 75," is it? And Campaign is not a party setting, is it?

The job is the original hybrid; it was intended to be able to perform casting duties while maintaining a frontline presence. I'm not satisfied that frontlining is a situational "when-all-the-stars-are-aligned" dice-roll. It's time for that martial aspect to the RDM class to get attention. If you dislike the idea of frontlining, and can't accept that it might finally become a cornerstone of RDM's group play, then maybe you should consider Scholar.

Regardless of how you feel about RDM frontlining, S-E's already said they're delving into possibilities. This thread is simply for the brainstorming of possibilities among players. This is not a philosophical debate about the appropriateness of frontlining.

If you have no ideas to share on how to make that frontline a reality, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Rather than quoting every single thing you've said and saying the exact opposite, I'll just point out a few obvious things i'd like to correct which actually fit to what I was trying to say.

Also, I'm a Red Mage 75, I leveled it myself and I have an opinion with experience about meleeing alongwith ideas such as Campaign, thus I think I have enough right to post in this thread.. My point is not to argue or to bash the idea's from the posters in this thread.

I really doubt Red Mage needs to waste mp on En-spells and what not in order to be able to melee among others in Experience Points party's.

Good thing En-spells are so cheap. ANd, you know, Refresh.

I wasn't talking about solely the En-spells. Refresh is great. But every person who played Red Mage to the highest level knows that this doesn't mean your MP is unlimited. Everyone's MP is unlimited if you don't look at how long and how often they use the /heal function.

It's called Red Mage.
So a lot of you want to see it different and perhaps it will. But is it really a problem that a Red Mage has to use Magic? Ofcourse not!

Melee Red Mage is one of my favourite non-sense discussions among "FFXi vs. WoW" and "PS2 limitations are a pest."

Your argument is no less nonsensical.

You seem to think that just because we bear the term "Mage" in our title, that we should be relegated solely to back line. Exactly what is Blue Mage then, I wonder?

There's no problem at all that RDM uses magic. No one's questioning it. It's a given. But there's no reason that a front-line intended job should be consigned to casting on the backline.

To keep it short:

Compare the Blue Mage and Red Mage spell lists with eachother.
Ninja is a "cold blooded killer."
Summoner "Calls forth ancient avatars to fight by their side."
I don't see that issue brought up half as much as this Red Mage thing.

Fact is; they're usually OK with it unless the monsters use some kind of annoying AoE ability. Several times i've had meleeing Red Mage's. It's not that big of a deal. If it works out for you, great, you might be able to put out some real damage too. If it doesn't, you just convinced 5 party members that it's a stupid idea. ><

The AoE argument doesn't hold water. Unless the mob AoE's Silence, the RDM's survival odds are far stronger than any DD, simply because we can protect ourselves. I'm more confident any RDM will remain standing after an AoE move than the meleé he's standing beside.

That's almost exactly my point!! You don't just protect yourself and take advantage of the rest of party to melee. You protect others! You heal others! And I don't know if you've levelled Red Mage to 75, but in all seriousness, you know it is NOT going to benefit your party in that way. Unless the game community generally accepts Red Mage for doing this and invites another mage to... bla bla bla. Come on. However, I do remember that this thread is not (unlike so many others, with damage calculations and all) is not about how to make a Red Mage work in Party situations with the current system. The thing is, allthough I have always kind of ignored the Red Mage melee threads for something stupid, I haven't been a Red Mage since that long.

My point is, i'm sure there can be things added (preferably not changed unless it's really good) so Red Mage's can do some more damage. But do we really have to? Red Mage can be really stressful just doing what it's currently doing in experience points party's. And it does it darn good.

Finally, I also feel I have to say this. In this thread (and definetely not only this one) it's always about experience points party's. I've levelled quite a few jobs to 75 (9 in total, with 6, nearly 7 on my main character) and I've spend a lot of time doing "endgame" or at least "high end" activities. Please don't missread this as me saying I'm better than anyone or something silly like that. But after this long time (over 600 days of /playtime on just my main character ><) my general experience might have been changed a bit. I definetely haven't lost my fun, but for example; I always hated Healing Magic. I really really hated it, my friend levelled White Mage to 42 for me while I was levelling his Drk to 42, for as subjob to his Red Mage, in a static party. I've always wanted Red Mage to 75 because of it's capabilities at the maximum level. In endgame purposes the whole Healing Magic role kind of fades, with exception of a few things where it isn't as bad. (I for example do not play Red Mage in Dynamis.) I never levelled it untill recently, because I hated the exp partying from 1 to 75. What i'm saying is that I've come to the point where I didn't care about it anymore. It's just another job to 75, just stick through it and poof, only few weeks later it's 75 too. So maybe that's why i'm not all that interested in party play.

But I'd also like to say that I did really enjoy doing meleeing with melee gear and "buffs" in Campaign Battle's, mainly because I didn't have to use any other spells or keep track of fast going party play.

By all means though, keep up the "kooky" idea's for Red Mage melee.

[Pteryx]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Why is it that so many RDM melee update proposals boil down to Tim Taylor-esque cries for "MOAR POWER!!1! *grunt* *grunt* *gruuunt!*"? I feel that Dahc has a point in that we should think of reasons to let RDM melee other than "it hurts" -- because if we get too good at pumping out melee damage numbers, we'll be inundated with DD ONRY RDMs who never actually support the party, see the birth of viable RDMx6 parties, and other unsettling trends.

However, I personally don't think that giving RDM very DNC-like buffing capability would suit the job. Yes, we buff, but we buff directly, one person at a time. AoE effects are a weakness of the job and should stay that way. Not to mention, lifting dazes straight from DNC -- even if repurposed in spell form -- would indeed step on DNC's toes, IMO.

That said, the basic idea of using a daze-like mechanic as the reason we should keep meleeing is something I've already thought of. However, my thought was not using it to buff the party like a DNC does, but using it to enhance our capability to enfeeble a mob -- enfeebling used to be one of our calling cards, remember? Sort of a DNC/COR hybrid mechanic. My concept is that when we have an Enspell up, any Enspell damage we inflict adds a very short-duration debuff that causes enfeebles of the matching element to wear off slower. As long as the "daze" is up, debuffs of that element tick down at half speed. Imagine that the duration of a debuff is represented with an hourglass, and this Enspell change lets you pinch the spout in the middle so it's narrower -- but you have to stay right there and keep pinching or it'll bounce back to normal width. This is different from both DNC, which uses Dazes to buff, and COR, which improves potency of enfeebles.

To be fair, this alone won't solve our "need permission to melee and probably won't get it" and "usefulness of our melee is extraordinarily situational" problems. It should be just one part of a carefully-built package that makes frontline vs. backline a tactical choice as opposed to LOL vs. OMG. I'll reserve talking about the rest of my ideas for if I'm asked, though, particularly as I'd be repeating myself anyway. -- Pteryx

[Lmnop]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I'm still pushing for the same things I'm always pushing for.

1) a method that brings a RDM to the front line should not keep him there. Nor should it ever be more important to take even a single extra swing than cast some minor spell. This means that the daze effect shouldn't last 5 seconds.

2) break the dominance of RDM plus BRD parties. I don't mind either. I don't mind them working together. but not all ideal layouts should include both. To this end, I'd actually love to see RDM do more of filling BRD's role. And I think running up to take a couple swings every fight would be a fine way to implement that.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

This silly idea just came up to me:

Hitting the mob (no matter of Double Attack) will instantly cast a certain pre-chosen spell. For example, chosing Paralyze, then hitting the mob will inflict the spell without interruption rate and less resist rate.

It wouldn't work like this, but this just came up, I'd have to think it through more. I'd like to avoid a DNC like system. I want to keep the idea of a mage knight.

[locus]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Hitting the mob (no matter of Double Attack) will instantly cast a certain pre-chosen spell. For example, chosing Paralyze, then hitting the mob will inflict the spell without interruption rate and less resist rate.

Well, it's a gimmick that wouldn't bother me. It has a bit of redundancy but that's not really a big problem considering how redundant certain spells in the game are.

If meleeing for a Red Mage is that important to you, how do you feel about melee White Mages? White Mages have better STR and get gear like Reverend Mail, high damage hammers, Hexa Strike and haste from Blessed. Does this mean a white mage should be meleeing in an experience party? I know for a fact that my White Mage does more damage than my Red Mage in a melee setting, so maybe the Red Mage should sit back and be the support instead!

And how about Black mages? (Claustrum! Spirit Taker!)

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

I think I brought this up at one point.

Nah, couldn't be.

[locus]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

You probably did. I haven't visited the WHM forums in over a year though, which is about the same amount of time I haven't touched my WHM (other than to learn new spells). It's dangerous to draw conclusions from gear though, otherwise the Holy Breastplate might lead you to think that white mages are supposed to tank.

Personally speaking, Joytoy is the only thing that makes RDM melee tolerable for me. I dislike subbing BLU or DRK on my RDM just for vorpal because I miss my solo na-spells and teleports.

I've tried an enhancing sword once but I really didn't like it - and the Kraken club was funny for all of 30 minutes before I got tired of missing on EM monsters/eating 300 tp WSes.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

Given that the job is billed as a battle mage, and that S-E is making considerations to move back to that, I'd expect no less.

Red Mages

Capable of using black and white magic; adept at swordsmanship. However red mages take far longer to master powerful spells than white or black mages due to their broad range of abilities

Blue Mage

Employing the legendary arts of Aht Urghan, these formidable fighter-mages employ elegantly curved blades for close combat, while decimating thier enemies from afar using fell magic mastered from thier opponents.

I'll leave you to decide which one says anything close to "battle mage."

Yes, Yellow Mage and Ptreyx, I went there.

[Kittyneko]

Re: Supposed RDM-melee update: thoughts on a kooky idea..

To all people vouching for the Red Mage meleeing in experience points party's I'd just like to say:

Get over it

These discussions have been going on for far too long in my opinion. Get to level 75, with all the merits you want, solo some Notorious Monsters, then come back and see if you still really care about Red Mage's meleeing in experience points party's.

There are lots of good idea's in this thread, but in the end it's a mage. With a decent sword skill. But you won't even learn the most damaging sword skill unless you use Warrior as a subjob.