RDM Tanking

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Tanking

My MP concerns probably could have been alleviated if I kept track of my spells, but Ita, I think you misread my post-

I wasn't INTENTIONALLY getting hit, it just worked out that I got hit just enough for it generate a decent amount of TP. It worked out that I would get hit for damage a few times, and in that time it was hitting me for 50-70 and generating TP, I was waiting for the recast timers to fall, and when both were up, I was able to tank almost flawlessly again.

It's a precarious dance to perform, but it's possible.

[Lmnop]

Re: RDM Tanking

Probably the first thing I wanted to go over was how much Haste you need to cap Utsu Recast timers...

The combination of Warlock's Chapeau, Duelist's Tabard, and Loqacious Earring will leave you with 21% recast reduction(Goliard Saio works for the body too, if you haven't gotten lucky on your AF2 body drop yet). Tack on Haste and you're at 36%, 14 from the 50% cap.

If you're getting double March that will more than cap you out, however I generally tend to assume the case of 1 March/1 Ballad, giving another 10%~ and leaving you about 4 from the cap. The easiest way to make up the difference is Dusk Gloves + Dusk Ledelsens, however you could also do a combination of Nashira Seraweels/Dusk Ledelsen's or Nashira Crackows and Dusk Gloves.

What am I missing, here?

Fast Cast -- just the traits that you get for being a RDM 75, looks to give 20% haste. Are you trying to say you're capping the Utsu cast time, not the recast time? Because Recast, you have 20 FC, 10% AF hat, 15% Haste spell... you're already @45%. Then tack on Swift belt for 4% more haste and you seem to be golden with very little gear investment (2 pieces, in fact). If you really need that extra 1%, you know where the Blitz Rings are kept.

As for actual casting time reduction: Relic body, AF head, Loq earring = 21% cast time reduction. And it looks like that's the best a RDM can do w/out /sch...

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Tanking

Fast Cast

So it seems that with the AF Hat and our native Traits, we get -15% off Recast.

Fast Cast I
Casting time -10%, recast -5%
* Obtained: Red Mage Level 15

Fast Cast II
Casting time -5%, recast -2.5%
* Obtained: Red Mage Level 35

Fast Cast III
Casting time -5%, recast -2.5%
* Obtained: Red Mage Level 55

Equipment that Enhances this Trait

* Warlock's Chapeau / Warlock's Chapeau+1 (Casting time -10%, recast -5%)
* Warlock's Mantle (Casting time -2%, recast -1%)
* Duelist's Tabard / Duelist's Tabard+1 (Casting time -10%, recast -5%)
* Rostrum Pumps (Casting time -2%, recast -1%)
* Loquacious Earring (Casting time -2%, recast -1%)
* Homam Cosciales (Casting time -4%, recast -2%)
* Marduk's Jubbah (Casting time -5%, recast -2.5%)
* Marduk's Jubbah Set (Casting time -10%, recast -5%)
* Pi Ring (Salvage Only: ???%)

Haste gained from magic caps at approximately 43.75%.

Recast time reduction is capped at 50% from all sources.

So Haste is the same as Reduction? IE, 15% Haste reduces delay and recast by 15%?

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Tanking

What am I missing, here?

Fast Cast -- just the traits that you get for being a RDM 75, looks to give 20% haste. Are you trying to say you're capping the Utsu cast time, not the recast time? Because Recast, you have 20 FC, 10% AF hat, 15% Haste spell... you're already @45%. Then tack on Swift belt for 4% more haste and you seem to be golden with very little gear investment (2 pieces, in fact). If you really need that extra 1%, you know where the Blitz Rings are kept.

As for actual casting time reduction: Relic body, AF head, Loq earring = 21% cast time reduction. And it looks like that's the best a RDM can do w/out /sch...

1) I was on an all-nighter at work yesterday and totally omitted Swift Belt.

2) You got Fast Cast backards, the FC# is the amount off of cast time, while the recast reduction is half of that.

Fast Cast + AF Hat + AF2 Body + Loq gives 42% off casting time, 21% off of recast. Add on Haste(spell) to 36%, Swift to 40%, leaves you missing 10% which is easily made up by a single Victory March. Thanks for reminding me of Swift.

Also, in regards to /SCH and casting time reduction, I think that minimum casting time may be capped around 40%, as when I played with /SCH I didn't seem to noticeably break the 42%~ that I usually cast at w/ Chapeau/Tabard/Loq.
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So Haste is the same as Reduction? IE, 15% Haste reduces delay and recast by 15%?

Yes, the Haste % is the % taken directly off of recast. Basic RDM(JTs, AF1, Haste) leaves you needing 20%, 14% with AF2/Loq.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Tanking

Well 5% can be knocked off directly from Dusk, so I'll theoretically be missing 15% off the cap, and that's just AHed gear. Swift Belt (which is feasibly easily obtainable) would bring it to 11%...

Thanks, Callisto!

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Tanking

'feasibly easily obtained' lol

I'm still dreading popping my codex, LSmate just got his swift, he went 1/21.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Tanking

:-/ That's not even anything near being funny. I'm trying to see how it would be possible for me to solo the DC Taurus'.

I might have to raise Ninja to 40 and then do it that way.

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Tanking

If you have BST or BLU at or near 40 that's probably the easiest way, both of those jobs smoke them. My LSmate has BST and actually had some very good luck on Codex drop rate at the least, so it wasn't super difficult for him to attempt the Swift Belt NMs, but still that's gotta be an excruciating drop rate.

From the runs I've actually attended I've seen it drop about 4/15, although other LSmates have said that their runs went like 7/8 when they got theirs, so it seems a bit up in the air.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM Tanking

I refuse to do Swift Belt runs without a Thief anymore; it's like tossing a perfectly good Fomor Codex when popping the NM sans Thief.

[Lmnop]

Re: RDM Tanking

1) I was on an all-nighter at work yesterday and totally omitted Swift Belt.

2) You got Fast Cast backards, the FC# is the amount off of cast time, while the recast reduction is half of that.

Between the 2 of us we'll get it right!

[Tokagawa]

Re: RDM Tanking

leave tanking to Paladins, ninjas, and warrior RAWR! ;]

[Silent Howler]

Re: RDM Tanking

So...is Red Mage tanking viable for exp parties? And if so, when does it start?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Tanking

Ruic started at level 52.

But I suppose that as soon as we get Haste, then maybe.

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Tanking

So...is Red Mage tanking viable for exp parties? And if so, when does it start?

I personally don't find it viable for XP parties, at least not in the /NIN sense that we've been discussing. For the most part, RDM requires more time than other tanks to gain hate, though once they have hate they have much more solid hate than any other type of tank. In a normal XP party, the mob is going to be half dead and hate will be all over the place before a RDM can reign it in without the use of TA.

For the most part I'm considering this for HNM-type mobs where you have the time necessary to build hate.
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leave tanking to Paladins, ninjas, and warrior RAWR! ;]

I'm actually currently taking PLD to 75 as well, it's kind of a win-win situation: Either I collect several unwanted Askar/AF+1/AF2 scraps on my way to 75 and ding into nice gear, and I get to use the Enmity gear I have from RDM already, or I don't get any decent gear and the fact that my PLD is so mediocre makes my LS leader complain less about me tanking as RDM.

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Tanking

I finally got to attempt a 'real' tanking scenario over the weekend with Proto-Omega. I co-tanked with a PLD, and it was actually much easier than I expected it to be, I think primarily due to Omega not having Double Attack. It was a relatively low-manned run, 12 members, tank party of RDM(me) PLD RDM BRD BRD SCH, then BLU RDM RDM SAM DRK BLM for the DDs.

I was using stuffs along these lines:

Tankage

Macahuitl +1 x2
Lamian Kaman
Warlock's Chapeau +1
Harmonia's Torque
Eris' Earring
Loquacious Earring
Duelist's Tabard
Duelist's Gloves
Balrahn Ring(really need a Mermaid's :/)
Bomb Queen Ring
Resentment Cape
Warwolf Belt
Crimson Cuisses
Crimson Greaves

It came out to +19 Enmity including merits, while my PLD co-tank had +36, which I figured would be a bit of an issue but we decided that he wouldn't use Sentinel or Rampart unless it was really needed. I used Carbonara for the extra HP, when full I sat around 1460.

After the initial Spirits Within the PLD used Flash/Shield Bash, and I figured I'd have trouble getting hate, but after my first 2 volleys of Dispel/Sleep/Sleep 2 I started pulling it. We ping-ponged Omega for a good while, then the PLD took a decent chunk of damage from something. I topped him off with a Cure IV and bam, hate was all mine for the next 6 minutes or so. I tanked him without any problems down to 25%, then the PLD took over to kite it so that we could milk Gunpod pops. I will say this, while RDM spells make some really nice hate, they're nothing compared to Sentinel + Rampart + Shield Bash. The PLD did this to take over for kiting, and it took me nearly 8 minutes to create enough hate to get Omega to even look at me, and even then it took me Converting and dropping 3 Cure4's on myself to do it.

Other things I took away from the fight: 1) Tanking as RDM is busy as shit compared to other tanks. It was somewhat difficult to count shadows while constantly casting hate spells and keeping an eye on Refresh/Haste, though I changed the font color for my evades/shadows so they stood out from the log, and that helped a good amount. 2) Capped recast timers is insane. There were spans where Paralyze would proc a couple of times and I'd parry, and wouldn't even be using Ichi because Ni would be back up before all 3 shadows were taken, and the low Stoneskin timer was fantastic. And lastly, 3) MP was very easy to keep up with 2x Ballad, but I have to wonder how it'd be with only 1 BRD. I was a little worried going into the fight with only 600~ MP, but it was never an issue, although I can see the value of having Chapeau/A.Body/Morrigan's for tanking.

The main LS tank won't be able to make Sky tonight, so I'm hoping to give Suzaku + Seiryu a try after work.