Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Im not saying they are limited too it, since the entire practical use of -ga spells from sch revolves around use of stratagems. According to you having a 1 minute timer makes it an impratical use, basically I took the 1 minute timer from your phalanx arguement, and applied it to the same pretense for your SS point. You think Phalanx is no good, but SS is. Fact SS at best last 4 hits in endgame. That is 16 seconds.

4*25 = 100

an aditional attack is gained by Phalanx for a total of 20 seconds of 0 damage.

Meanwhile for about 10 seconds you wont have SS so Phalanx will there,

thats an additional 50+ damage mitigated. Over the course of a endgame battle, Phalanx will mitigate a fair amount of damage close to the same amount of damage as SS if you add up all the consecutive 50 damage per 10's of SS downtime.

20 minute fight

1200 seconds

1200/4 (delay) = 300 attacks

300/4 = 75 will take 75 SS's to mitigate all 300 hits
= 60 with phalanx



75*30 = 2250 (1000 over the time limit)

so lets see how many SS we can get

1200/30 = 40

40*4 = 160 hits for 0

that leaves 140 hits that are un protected with phalanx this drops to 100

140*25 = 3500
without phalanx you miss out on 3500 points of damage mitigation

or 5 cure 5's

100*25 = 2500 post SS failing.

with Phalanx you save 2500 damage or 3 cure 5's and a 4

a diference of 1000 damage mitigated, or a Cure 5 and a cure 4

But Phalanx is useless and isnt pratical for any purpose, Phalanx 2 is uselss, but phalanx is not.


But ya I guess thats an epic fail isnt it

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Fact: If you take 0 from Stoneskin you can finish casting Utsusemi: Ichi
Fact: If you take 1 after subtracting the damage from Phalanx, you're just 25 points less roadkill than you were without because like as not it's interrupting your cast.

Any questions?


Icemage

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Not everyone is a Blink tank, you never seen a PLD/WAR endgame? You ever see paper mache ninjas get torn up at 150+ a pop, i figure 125 is alot better then 150. PLD/NIN would apreciate this more than anyone because even when utsu is down they are not completely paper thin and can take several hits before trouble arises.

The fact is SS+Phalanx on any tank is > SS alone. Anyway you slice it.

I do have some questions for you.

1. How do you consider SCH's use in endgame situation.?

Myself I see it as the ultimate support job, it can buff BLM output by using 2 Stratagems and Buff Tank survivability by using 2 stratagems. It can back up heal, back up nuke, without the use of stratagems. So essentially debating over the use of stratagems is meaningless, there are 2 real roles they will play in end game and that is offensive and defensive support. Nothing works better then weather+Klimaform, and Phalanx+SS. (all casted from light arts I beleive)

2. Where do you see SCH using other stratagems.

Most endgame events have several BLM's so no need for a SCH to go out and waste its MP on a potentially resisted Nuke leave it to the BLM's. WHM's are plentiful so SCH wont be needed to AoE buffs such as Pro or Shell, -na spells will be taken care of. Enfeebling will be handled by the RDM. That leaves support, party buffs that other jobs cant do effectivley.

3. How do you consider the fact SCH makes phalanx 2 uselss

You have stated some pretty good facts on why SCH shouldnt use phalanx, although i disagree ill credit them to you, but you havent stated your opinion on the OP. The fact of the mater is Phalanx 2 is useless in endgame now when a SCH is around. SCH can make phalanx 2 redundant which I already showed a couple pages back with the equations. Its not a debate wether or not SCH should use 1 stratagem to use for phalanx, which in my last post evidently shows it should.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Myself I see it as the ultimate support job, it can buff BLM output by using 2 Stratagems and Buff Tank survivability by using 2 stratagems. It can back up heal, back up nuke, without the use of stratagems. So essentially debating over the use of stratagems is meaningless, there are 2 real roles they will play in end game and that is offensive and defensive support. Nothing works better then weather+Klimaform, and Phalanx+SS. (all casted from light arts I beleive)

I'd rather have any mage buff that COR can offer than weather spells from a SCH. SCH can be useful to a Tank PT, but SMN can be almost equally as useful in a tank PT.

Klimaform is self-only and also black magic, which cannot be used with Accession (Light Arts). Manifestation does not AoE support magic. SCH can only offer BLMs Weather effects, which might proc on occasion, COR's Evoker's Roll, Wizard's Roll, Scholar's Roll, Warlock's Roll and Healer's Roll cover everything else a mage could possibly need. SCH would go better with a COR and four BLMs, but without to COR, I wouldn't consider SCHs just for weather magic.

2. Where do you see SCH using other stratagems.

Most endgame events have several BLM's so no need for a SCH to go out and waste its MP on a potentially resisted Nuke leave it to the BLM's. WHM's are plentiful so SCH wont be needed to AoE buffs such as Pro or Shell, -na spells will be taken care of. Enfeebling will be handled by the RDM. That leaves support, party buffs that other jobs cant do effectivley.

You'd be right if B skill magic was like B skill melee, which its not. If there's enough healing to go round, there's no good reason to not put SCH's out there for nuking. I'd pair them up with COR and BLMx4 in a heartbeat, but not for thier weather spells, not even close. I've done enough manaburns on COR to know that we're far superior support to BLMs than BRD and RDM are, I'll just take a SCH for extra nukes.

Weather spells on top of what COR can do are just luxury, but not the main attraction to putting SCH in a BLM PT with BLMs, that would be Scholar's Roll (provided it was even needed at all) and another job that can T4 nukes.

[Tsrwedge]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Klimaform is self-only and also black magic, which cannot be used with Accession (Light Arts). Manifestation does not AoE support magic.

Actually, no. Just tested this, Manif. will AoE Klimaform.

Also, if the BLMs have sea obis, those storms suddenly are a free +10% to damage.

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

My mistake about klimaform I thought it was a White Magic Spell. On the topic of COR i have yet to see anybody bring one to endgame events such as sky, Still pretty sure cor and pup are still off the list for most endgame peices. I wont argue that COR is hands down the best BLM support job its head and shoulders above the competition. However for the most part they just arent around, and generally serve the melee groups better in the long run.

Magic Skill is a huge effect, hile SCH can attain an A+ in skill with its AF and corresponding torque, these slots are then unusable to increase INT or MAB. You cant have both on SCH the same as RDM, I can crank the hell out of my ACC but then I cant nuke hard, or I can nuke hard but get resisted more. The fact is its not worth the MP to have them tossing out partially and fully resisted nukes. Rep them with a 5th BLM and you will have a far more superior Nuking force.

Personally I feel SCH would fit better as a support roll in any given party then a NUKE or Main healing specialist (kinda like how rdm used to be).

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Actually, no. Just tested this, Manif. will AoE Klimaform.

I've just checked it, too, but it shouldn't work with Klimaform and not with Ice Spikes.

I think its bugged, personally, since it working with Manifestation doesn't comply with the definition of Manifestation. If we're supposed to be able to AoE Klimaform, then SE should fix it so we can AoE Spike spells as well. If we're not supposed to AoE Spike Spells, then Klimaform shouldn't work either.

But then, there's a lot of kinks in Manifestation that need to be worked out. Some enfeebles will AoE, but things like Choke or Rasp won't from /BLM.

Also, if the BLMs have sea obis, those storms suddenly are a free +10% to damage.

Big if, Those things take quite a bit of time to make.

On the topic of COR i have yet to see anybody bring one to endgame events such as sky, Still pretty sure cor and pup are still off the list for most endgame peices. I wont argue that COR is hands down the best BLM support job its head and shoulders above the competition. However for the most part they just arent around, and generally serve the melee groups better in the long run.

"Not around" doesn't mean you shouldn't consider them in a conversation or mission shout if the situation calls for skills they have. A big problem with FFXI players is their failure to consider all jobs in the face of a situation. Endgame is somewhat spoiled with what came before ToA, its time to acknowledge five other jobs added in the last two years and rewrite the RoZ/CoP endgame playbook.

Most endgame shells hotly desire BRDs, yet don't want to play them because they know they'll be babysitting a BLM PT most of the time and reduced to a Ballad monkey when they can be doing a lot more. Personally, I don't know why LS endgame shellholders and officers don't grow the balls to fill thier own needs. BRD isn't that hard to level, COR is a little bit more pricey, but still not that hard to level. I'm not afraid to have words with any sack or leader that puts a BRD with the BLMs over a COR, that BRD can be doing a lot more good in melee or tank PTs than a BLM one.

If its the price tag scaring people from COR, its a lame excuses since 95% of CORs just gimp thier way to 75 on /WHM anyway and never shoot a shot. If that's how most people are playing it, I don't see the difficulty in getting it to 75 specifically for proper BLM support. Only difficulty I see (or just the problem I have with that) is that its not playing the job right.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Mag, Kaeko just had an extensive post about the fact that SCH, in almost all situations, is as good, if not better, than BLM end-game.

I don't feel like regurgitating it. Here it is

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Wow that was a good read thanks wish

[Karinya]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

The post linked to doesn't mention what subjob he's using for BLM (although he does mention SCH/RDM at one point), so I'll assume both his BLM and SCH are subbing WHM or RDM for stoneskin/blink, and that not doing so will get them killed. Otherwise the BLM can /SCH and get dark arts MP cost reduction, sublimation, and half as many parsimony uses as full SCH *including parsimonious AM/AM2/-ga3*, while still having superior skill, MAB and in all probability INT, compared to any SCH, even SCH/BLM.

Even with that being said, the post assumes that scholar buffs like weather are only available to the scholar, which is true in solo, but not in endgame alliances where scholars are quite capable of casting weather buffs on BLMs. (And note that if they use Accession to do so, they must switch into Light Arts, use a stratagem for Accession, and then if they want to T4 nuke, switch to dark arts *and* spend another stratagem charge to reopen Addendum:Black. This won't leave many, if any, stratagems for parsimony, but the improvement in the BLMs' damage will probably exceed what the SCH would have done casting more resistable nukes himself.)


Finally, I'll also point out that in order to reach "nearly" acceptable resist rates on HNM, he has to use almost every equip slot on skill and INT gear, leaving no slots for MAB gear; this will make the MAB gap much larger than in the solo case where skill stacking wasn't necessary. You can't wear an elemental torque and an uggalepih pendant at the same time, nor your AF body and a yigit or other MAB body, nor moldavite, novio, elemental and abyssal earrings all at once (even if you HAVE all those earrings).

You can't assume that a SCH is wearing the best possible skill and INT gear while also assuming that they're wearing the best possible MAB gear, unless it happens to be the same gear. BLM, with much less of a skill gap to close, can afford to wear more MAB, which is going to be reflected in their damage output even if the SCH does manage to attain the same resist rate.


SCH certainly do have some neat tricks, but this analysis has some definite flaws (or at least oversights).

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

One of the major flaws I noticed was a comparision via damage from a BLM under weather vs a SCH under weather I know for a fact who will win but it would be nice to see the % difference done. Needless to say, the above post shows SCH offers more to supporting BLM's then being a quasi BLM itself.