Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

It's less about an 'edge' and all about fairness. Smn's AoE phalanx is on the same timer as Sch's, but the Smn one costs more then twice the MP, has a shorter duration and a lower potency. It's a glaring balance issue, that while not extremely detrimental to the overall gameplay, is something that should be addressed.

Are you advocating SMNs to get a cheaper and more powerful Noctoshield, then? Not that I'd be personally averse to that specifically, but making every job equally potent at all the shared abilities would dilute the uniqueness of each job.

It's not like this one tiny thing would be hard to balance out either, a tweak here a buff there and voila, this problem no longer exists.

And I don't see anyone saying it's a major problem with the game, they're just pointing out that it *is* a slightly unfair issue that would be nice if it was more balanced.

Unfair, perhaps, but as I've mentioned previously, there are far more impactful changes than Phalanxga. Arguably the change to Stoneskinga is much more troublesome, since it's stepping much more on the toes of Summoner and Blue Mage than Phalanxga does for Summoner and Red Mage.

I thought the resist traits just lowered the duration of the effect rather then allowing you to complete prevent it. Like the Bar spells.

In theory, yes. In practice, hardly ever. I've actually managed to get a full Evade against Silence and/or Petrify effects a few - very few - times. Once in a very, very long while the effect will wear off on me faster than other people, but not often enough to be useful in any context (Dynamis-Bastok, for instance) - and I've never resisted silence enough to avoid me diving straight for the echo drops.

I never said it was 'suddenly useful', but there are, and always were, times when there *is* a use for it. There's plenty of times where lots of people get hit often in a party. But even if it is just for the Tank, the Sch's version of Phalanx is *still* better to use because it's longer lasting and has a higher potency. It's not the "why" that's up for debate here, whether it's just one tiny, specific environment that this spell is needed to be cast, the fact remains that Sch's ability to use this spell totally blows away Rdms and especially Smns ability to do the *same* thing. It's a minor issue, but it's still a glaring lack balance where this spell is concerned.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king?

Phalanxga is a marginal ability. Period. It costs a Strategem charge and 40ish MP, and for that you would need to absorb some 220ish damage (9 hits) for the duration for it to even pull even with an unmodified Cure III.

For a blood-tanking PLD/WAR (single), it's rougly equivalent to Phalanx II - slightly better perhaps due to potency, but the MP cost isn't enough to quibble over, especially as Red Mages have access to FAR more MP than Scholars do.

For any tank that is blinktanking, getting hit a lot more than 9 times over the course of three minutes means you're doing it wrong in most cases.

Despite the limited amount of 'use' it might see, it's not about Phalanx's potency or practicality *at all*. It's that Sch's do it better in every way, shape and form, just like -na spells. Before when it was just Rdm and Smn with the ability, despite Smn's being able to AoE it, Rdm's still had an edge because theirs was better and cheaper. Now a job comes along that blows away the balance that *was* there by doing it better, cheaper and easier then *both* of those jobs combined. Even if it's used in one single, solitary, never-will-be-repeated fight, it's still an unbalanced situation.

All I see here is a lot of bellyaching over an ability that no one really cares much about.

And why aren't these same people complaining that Red Mages heal better than White Mages due to having twice the MP flow? If you want to talk about silly game balance, that's a much bigger issue than trying to pontificate over which job is the best at doing something that no one actually uses.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Yeah, because there's totally not dozens and dozens and dozens of countless mobs that use AoE debuffs

...oh wait.

Humor me and list the common AoE debuff mobs that people constantly EXP on.

• Crabs AoE STR down. Can't do anything about that at Qufim/Valkurm levels anyway. Kuftal tunnel, OK AoE Erase works.
• Mandies AoE MND down. Holy shit! Wait, that's not even worth removing.
• Bats AoE Evasion down. Erase the PLD or NIN, let the melees tough it out.
• Crawlers do cone AoEs, just worry about the one or two people that got hit, no need for Accession here
• Funguar type, more cone AoE and single target, again, no Accession needed
• Anitcan - AoE Stone and Silence. not commonly EXPed on, either because half of them are PLD and killing is so slow its not worth it. Accession maybe here.
• Puks - AoE Flash. Accssion > Blinda? Oh wait, its Flash. it'll wear off in five seconds.
• Wivres - totally common EXP target :roll: AoE Attack down. Better idea, don't fight them.
• Imps - AoE Silence. Better idea: Let's not fight Imps at all. Carry your own damn echo drops if you want to fight then, even with the existance of Accession.
• Poisonga? Depends on the tier. Tier 1 poison shouldn't be a priority for Accession. Higher HP per tick? Then we'll talk.

Again, I'm not seeing the major applications aside from AoE STR or Attack Down and various endgame mobs. For EXP, there's better things to do with Strategem charges.

But you guys keep making that mountian out of a molehill.

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Are you advocating SMNs to get a cheaper and more powerful Noctoshield, then? Not that I'd be personally averse to that specifically, but making every job equally potent at all the shared abilities would dilute the uniqueness of each job.

Either cheaper or more powerful would be good, but not both. Honestly, I just think that upping the duration a noticable amount would be good enough a boost for Smns version.

Unfair, perhaps, but as I've mentioned previously, there are far more impactful changes than Phalanxga. Arguably the change to Stoneskinga is much more troublesome, since it's stepping much more on the toes of Summoner and Blue Mage than Phalanxga does for Summoner and Red Mage.

Honestly, I'm not sure which of those three Stoneskins are strongest, I assumed they had similar durations. It's not about multiple jobs doing the same thing, it's about multiple jobs doing the same thing, but one of them has numerous obvious, advantages to it to the point it's blatently stronger.

Phalanxga is a marginal ability. Period. It costs a Strategem charge and 40ish MP, and for that you would need to absorb some 220ish damage (9 hits) for the duration for it to even pull even with an unmodified Cure III.

For a blood-tanking PLD/WAR (single), it's rougly equivalent to Phalanx II - slightly better perhaps due to potency, but the MP cost isn't enough to quibble over, especially as Red Mages have access to FAR more MP than Scholars do.

For any tank that is blinktanking, getting hit a lot more than 9 times over the course of three minutes means you're doing it wrong in most cases.

All I see here is a lot of bellyaching over an ability that no one really cares much about.

Then you're saying that Phalanx(including Phalanx II) in general is all but useless?

And why aren't these same people complaining that Red Mages heal better than White Mages due to having twice the MP flow? If you want to talk about silly game balance, that's a much bigger issue than trying to pontificate over which job is the best at doing something that no one actually uses.

They did, for years. It was a constant and repeated complaint that Whms were being pushed aside because Rdms could cure just as well but have more endurance and utility. And SE has been directly addressing that same exact situation, namely in the form of Repose(so now Whm can effectively sleep stuff too) and /Sch with Sublimation (mp cost and casting time reductions as well as an effective drain/aspir on top of an ability that simulates refresh without the need of an outside caster).

and yes, it is a very small and minor point of misbalance. But then when has that ever stopped someone from arguing a point when they're bored at work
______________________________

Humor me and list the common AoE debuff mobs that people constantly EXP on.

Yup, because EXP is the only thing to do in this game where you get hit by AoE debuffs

...oh wait.

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

I was under the impression that RDM couldnt cast phalanx on another target until he/she unlocked he ability phalanx 2, a 90second 14 damage reduction paper thin wall at the first teir. This was all fine and dandy and I was asked to merit it by my endgame shell for use against fast hitting enemeis (Byakko comes to mind).

BBQ you can say everyone is missing the point you are trying to make, however you missed the point and have been missing it since page 1. Its not about SCH being able to aoe Phalanx, it is about the lost time etc from making it worth while to use from a rdm standpoint. I had mine originally at teir 3, but now that our resident sch can AoE buff the party why do I need to use it.


The only other practical use SCH has in endgame is providing weather effects to BLM's, is this redundant and not usefull as well? I mean it cost the same stratagem to cast Klimaform, and weather effects for the BLM's to get enhanced which is generally an inefficent use of 2 stratagems based on your logic, regarding AoE Phalanx.

I still think you look to blandly on what AoE phalanx can do, take a multi hit ws for example. Each hit is counted seperately, so in a 4 hit WS this equates to an auto matic 100+ damage detered, but that isnt worth the MP cost right. Lets look at a regular attack with say PLD/WAR, with sentinel, defender most hits will be doing double digits (under 100) bust out a Phalanx on top of that its an additional 25+ damage removed from the attack. Now sub in phalanx 2 for 14 damage reduction woooo. Thant means on a 4 hit WS you save 56 damage, and 14 per regular attack.

In this sense of phalanx 2 it is not as effective as Phalanx. Even at teir 3 it isnt as effective just look at the equations for both

Phalanx

Enh.Magic/10-2

so with 256 enhancing your lookin at 23 damage
at 300 your looking @ 28

Phalanx 2

Enhmagic/25+1 + (3 per merit level)

at 256 your looking at 14 damage mitigated

at 300

16

2 more levels gives you 6 more (level 3 gives you 180 seconds max duration)

so 22.

Now if the arguement is why would SCH be using this because it is ineffective, 1st off why is SCH in the tank party, If you need a healer bring a WHM. RDM is used for refresh and haste. Assuming you have a SCH in the tank party why wouldnt they use AoE SS and AoE phalanx and to the extent of AoE blink, this will greatly conserve the amount of MP needed to use for cures. Arguably you can look at it like this, why is a SCH in the BLM party, to use Weather and Klimaform to increase the damage output from BLM's.

It is one of the tools the job has to offer for the betterment of the party, you can argue the practical use of this, however being able to AoE phalanx to all party members is much more mp efficent then a RDM using it several times on all tanks. Given the basis of the original arguement from the OP, SCH makes RDM phalanx 2 redundant and unnecasary to cast, Phalanx is much more effective then its merited counterpart.

As for the practical use of it by a SCH, it can be said about many jobs, is it practical for a blu to use diffusion + refuling not overly, but if/when they do it adds haste to the party members. Is it practical for a SMN to use Hastega, not really however 1 spell with proper gear that can be as effective as RDM or WHM casting it, for the 3x Cost is incredebly efficent to the parties MP pool. As is a SCH who casts Phalanx, it may only lower 24-28 damage per hit but after 4 hits, that saves 100HP of damage, after 12 hits that saves 300 damage after 24 hits that saves 600 damage. Most endgame mobs have a 3-4 second delay so lets look at this

180/4 = 45
45*24= 1080

1080 damage mitigated for the duration of its effect, or 1 cure V and a Cure 4, or 2 Cure 4's and a Cure 3

that saves you 200MP+ for the casting AoE phalanx for 40ish MP. But no its not practical by any means.

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Aww dammit, MrMageo is defending the same points I am? =(

That's it, I'm out

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Honestly, I'm not sure which of those three Stoneskins are strongest, I assumed they had similar durations. It's not about multiple jobs doing the same thing, it's about multiple jobs doing the same thing, but one of them has numerous obvious, advantages to it to the point it's blatently stronger.

Right now, the only reason to bring a Blue Mage into endgame is either because:
(a) You're short on melees and you need someone who can self-skillchain Light for magic bursting.
(b) You want someone who can cast Diamondhide (for protecting vulnerable melees, such as at Kirin for Stonega IV, or Fafnir's Hurricane Wing, etc.)

Summoner's Blood Pact: Ward - Earthen Ward absorbs 200 damage, max with a recast timer of 1 minute (minus whatever the Summoner has in BP- time gear) for 112+ MP.

Diamondhide absorbs Blue Magic * 2/3 in damage, which for a level 75 Blue Mage is 276 + 15 (AF) capped. This results in a potency of 194 damage absorbed, for 99 MP.

A Scholar using Accession has a base potency of around 250-270 damage absorbed on their Stoneskin naked (depending on race - I don't know the exact figures because it depends on their MND score), but it's not terribly difficult for a Scholar to hit the 350 damage cap for Stoneskin, with a cost of 54MP.

That's almost TWICE as strong as either of the above, with less setup time, lower MP cost and faster recast than either of the other two jobs.

I'll re-iterate:

Summoner
MP: 112+
Recast: 60 seconds - BP gear
Absorbs: 200 damage, max

Blue Mage
MP: 99
Recast: 90 seconds - whatever fast cast they have (unlikely to be much)
Absorbs: 194 damage, max

Scholar
MP: 54 + 1 Accession charge
Recast: 27 seconds on Stoneskin, 1 minute on Strategem charges (but can stockpile up to 4 at any time)
Absorbs: 250-350 damage

And you're complaining about Phalanxga? Heh.

Then you're saying that Phalanx(including Phalanx II) in general is all but useless?

Outside of a very small minority of endgame situations? Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And doubly so for Phalanxga.

They did, for years. It was a constant and repeated complaint that Whms were being pushed aside because Rdms could cure just as well but have more endurance and utility. And SE has been directly addressing that same exact situation, namely in the form of Repose(so now Whm can effectively sleep stuff too) and /Sch with Sublimation (mp cost and casting time reductions as well as an effective drain/aspir on top of an ability that simulates refresh without the need of an outside caster).

And WHM/SCH is very much an amazing combination. But even so, my 75 Taru RDM/WHM or RDM/SCH with only slightly above average gear still out-heals my 75 Taru WHM/SCH which has pretty amazing WHM gears.


Icemage

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

*snip*And you're complaining about Phalanxga? Heh.

Actually I said I wasn't sure about the specifics of the different Stoneskin-gas, infact I thought the Blu one was supposed to be stronger then it actually is. But that just points out again even moreso how unbalanced the Sch's ability is.

And WHM/SCH is very much an amazing combination. But even so, my 75 Taru RDM/WHM or RDM/SCH with only slightly above average gear still out-heals my 75 Taru WHM/SCH which has pretty amazing WHM gears.

In every and all situations? I always thought Rdm had more trouble main healing in big mob fights but excelled at exp merit and small group situations.

Though again, the point was that many people DO complain about Rdm healing as well, if not better, then Whm and that SE has been taking steps to help boost Whm without hurting Rdms.

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

And you're complaining about Phalanxga? Heh

Last I checked RDM couldnt cast SS on people other than itself, so your comment is redundant.

SMN

200/112= 1.78 damage mitigated per MP

BLU

196/99= 1.97dmg/mp

SCH
*meeting you in the middle of 250-300*

300/54 = 5.5dmg/MP

again SCH wins hands down, BLU and SCH recast is both about 90's. SMN can reuse it in 60's but when they do they are then paying 4x the MP a SCH would.

using SS with phalanx-ga is still more efficient then not using either. If a sch is involved in the tank party not using both these damage mitigation tools is not doing the job. You can argue till your blue in the face, if you are able to mitigate 300+ 100(phalanx over 4 hits) and choose not to. You have no place in an endgame LS.

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Actually I said I wasn't sure about the specifics of the different Stoneskin-gas, infact I thought the Blu one was supposed to be stronger then it actually is. But that just points out again even moreso how unbalanced the Sch's ability is.

Oh no doubt. I'll be the first to say I think SCH is a little bit overpowered in this respect, but Phalanxga is not at the top of the list of exhibits... or anywhere close to it.

In every and all situations? I always thought Rdm had more trouble main healing in big mob fights but excelled at exp merit and small group situations.

About the only time my WHM will outperform my RDM is in extended fights like Tiamat, where enmity gain becomes an issue (Cure 5, Regen III), or where Stona is necessary (Alastor Antlion, Proto-Ultima). Everything else is just a convenience (Raise II Rod, Raise III, Reraise III, Protectra/Shellra). There's some marginal gains in Shellra V, and my Barspell merits.

In just about any other case... yeah, pretty much my RDM75/WHM37 can wipe the floors with my WHM75/SCH37 for longevity. I will almost always choose to bring RDM/WHM over WHM/SCH for things like Assault, Campaign or Besieged, as well as small-party activities.

Though again, the point was that many people DO complain about Rdm healing as well, if not better, then Whm and that SE has been taking steps to help boost Whm without hurting Rdms.

WHM got a nice boost from /SCH, it's true, but the scales still aren't balanced. I have both jobs at 75, and can attest to this personally.


Icemage

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Last I checked RDM couldnt cast SS on people other than itself, so your comment is redundant.

SMN

200/112= 1.78 damage mitigated per MP

BLU

196/99= 1.97dmg/mp

SCH
*meeting you in the middle of 250-300*

300/54 = 5.5dmg/MP

again SCH wins hands down, BLU and SCH recast is both about 90's. SMN can reuse it in 60's but when they do they are then paying 4x the MP a SCH would.

using SS with phalanx-ga is still more efficient then not using either. If a sch is involved in the tank party not using both these damage mitigation tools is not doing the job. You can argue till your blue in the face, if you are able to mitigate 300+ 100(phalanx over 4 hits) and choose not to. You have no place in an endgame LS.

Lalalala... Ok, Mr. Lack of Reading Comprehension.

Scholars can recast Stoneskin in 27 seconds or so due to the Light Arts recast time buff. They are limited only by their available Strategem charges in this respect. In no case will they be restricted to 90 seconds.

Epic fail.


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Just for the record when I level SCH I'm gonna cast both Phalanxga and Stonskinga on my tank parties. Because I'm awesome like that even if I don't have a 2k-tan sig.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Yup, because EXP is the only thing to do in this game where you get hit by AoE debuffs

...oh wait.

Thanks for not reading this:

Again, I'm not seeing the major applications aside from AoE STR or Attack Down and various endgame mobs. For EXP, there's better things to do with Strategem charges.

I mentioned endgame mobs in there along with EXP. I also mentioned the whole Dyna-Jeuno thing. I don't bring it up if I'm not going to be all-encompassing about it.

Yeah, and if MrMageo is defending your points, its a fairly good sign you're arguing the wrong side

Stuff about BBQ missing the point about merits. Boo hoo, piss and moan, RDM didn't get shinies.

OK, what about BRDs that merit Troubador and COR getting Winning Streak on top of the superior buff duration they already had with Phantom Roll? What about RNG getting Snapshot merits and not COR? What about BST having to merit Terrorize when BLU gets it as a spell in the 40s? What about DNC getting AoE Endrain when DRK or RDM didn't?

Why is this about PHALANX?

SCH can AoE stoneskin better, Icemage just threw up the numbers. I've sat in PTs main healing and watched PLDs take 4-5 hits before that AoE-ed stoneskin goes down and if the melee gets hit, its barely enough for me to need to cure them. Phalanx isn't as worthwhile as that.

SCH can AoE Enspells based directly on thier own Enhancing Skill as of the March Update. Where's the complaints about that? RDMs love to talk about thier Enspells, but no protests there.

Or Alacrity > Stun. Its not close to CS/Stun, but we can get back to that second stun before anyone but BLM/SCH or DRK/SCH could.

Speaking of CS/Stun, how enamored do you think DRKs and BLMs are about RDM/DRKs being able to do that? Was there an uprising over it? Or did they go "Wow, RDMs can actually do something useful with Chainspell?" I don't recall there being one when it was popularized for CoPs and endgame.

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Just for the record when I level SCH I'm gonna cast both Phalanxga and Stonskinga on my tank parties. Because I'm awesome like that even if I don't have a 2k-tan sig.

Should note you can't cast Stoneskinga via Accession on SCH/RDM until level 68, so it's not so very many levels of being awesome like that. :p


Icemage

[Raydeus]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

It's ok, I'll have 68 levels of hitting on SCH (hume) girls to keep me entertained while I get super awesome for tank parties in Dynamis.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

You can do AoE Stoneskin at level 56SCH/WHM28, though, which is what I've been doing for a bit now. ToA PTs don't always encompass a lot of nuking. Doesn't mean I don't try, mind you, but I'm better off putting all my MP into protective buffs and cures than damage, especially when dealing with T2 and T3 Colibri.

When you get to 68 SCH, you can just sub /RDM and never look back at /WHM again.