Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

If you hate it so much, why play it?

[Tsrwedge]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

At this juncture, can we just say don't feed the troll?

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

I play it because RDM is the reason I bought the game I dont play it for the satisfaction of main healing a party, or enfeebling a moster, I play it because I like the concept of RDM every peice of it, from melee to nukes. I dont play this game to comfort other people nor do I play it to please other people. I play it for me, I like RDM because properly geared I can do anything in the game, which is evidently wrong according to most people here. I like the versatility, I like being able to come on everyday of the week and say to myself I think im going to melee today, or I think im going to nuke today. RDM as a comunity job sucks now since ToAU it has been downgraded by the community to refresh that is it which is why outside of doing things endgame wise that assist the community, I could care less about other people. I dont like the community because of how they veiw my job so in that sense I dont conform to the pigeon hole. Icemage BBQ Itaz and others assume I shirk my duties to get what I want, while that may be true to a degree, when I come to party I come as what I feel like playing, which means If i want to main heal I gear for it and only it, if I want to melee I gear for it and only it. You want a RDM who comes with 3 different gear setups on him at any time then find one. If im going to be playing you get the job I advertize in my search con, and if you dont like it, find someone else I can campaign, or build my own party.

[Mhurron]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Wall-o-text

Penny Arcade! - The Bad Boys Of Punctuation

At this juncture, can we just say don't feed the troll?

The problem is there is a slight difference between feeding trolls and destroying misinformation.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

• Brd need two spells to match Refresh's potency and Cor needs lucky rolls to be as strong/stronger.

A BRD can also give 3 MP/tick to five BLMs faster than any RDM can. At no cost to its MP. Two songs is a small price to pay for such convenience.

• Smn's haste is weaker in potency and duration and Brd's haste (which again needs two songs to equal the spell) can stack with the spell

AFAIK, SMN's Hastega is identical in potency to Haste from RDM and WHM. Duration is modifiable with skill+ equipment, too. BRD's March x2 can exceed RDM/WHM's Haste with the right instrument, IIRC.

However, Sch's can cast Phalanx on others at an earlier lvl, hitting more people, with a more potent version, for similar MP costs. Which is completely different from all the other situations you mentioned. Your list shows things that are similar, but an obvious balance can be seen. With Phalanxga, Sch's can do it earlier, stronger, wider and not lose out on very much. And seeing as it's stronger then the Rdm's version, there really is no reason the Rdm should cast it if you have a Sch in the party. Just like how people prefer Whm or Rdm haste over Smn's Hastega.

Well, at least the conversation is finally turning the right way; is it worth it the JA timer to Phalanx the party.

Keep in in mind that this discussion is about Phalanx II vs. Accession Phalanx. In situations where only one or two people take hits regularly, it's better overall for RDM to cast Phalanx II and the SCH to use Stratagems in other ways.

RDM Enhancing caps at 256; lets say a particular RDM has Lv.2 Phalanx II merit, and +20 in enhancing skill equipment to make better use of it. A SCH has same cap with Light Arts, and let's give it same amount of enhancing skill gear.

Phalanx II benefit:
- ~18 damage/hit mitigation
- 90 second duration
- 1 person (can be targeted far away)

Accession Phalanx benefit:
- ~25 damage/hit mitigation
- 180 second duration
- All party members near Scholar.

Looking at the benefits, there's no argument that Accession Phalanx is the clear winner except in a running fight. (Just don't be too dazzled by the AoE aspect, since it's fairly rare that more than one or two people need it.)

What's missing from the picture is the cost.

Phalanx II cost:
- ~3 second cast time
- 42 MP

Accession Phalanx cost
- ~6 second cast time
- ~40 MP (? I see it listed as 44, but Phalanx I is only 21 MP, and should be less with Light Arts)
- 1 Stratagem

The MP really isn't an issue here, whether it's 40 or 44, the difference is small enough from Phalanx II's 42 that it makes little difference. The 6 second cast time would really blow for running fights, but the big issue is the Stratagem. How much is that Strategem worth?

If the SCH is responsible for putting Stoneskin on the tank, and the tank is getting get enough to make Phalanx useful, would it be better to save the Stratagem for reapplying Stoneskin or use it on Phalanx?

On an HNM, how many more hits would Stoneskin last with Phalanx? Is that enough to last the one minute recharge time? I think most tanks would say, "Screw Phalanx--keep one Stratagem at all time so you can cast Stoneskin on me whenever it goes down."

Compare that to RDM's situation; there's no 1 minute timer to worry over; just reapply as needed, and can even roll it into the Refresh/Haste buff cycle, turning it into a Refresh/Haste/Phalanx II cycle.

Even for a SCH dedicated to just servicing the tank(s) in a party with both RDM and WHM, Phalanx would be a distant second to Stoneskin due to the need to conserve Stratagems. When 4 charges are up, sure. When down to 1, though, the opportunity cost of using it up on Phalanx is just too high.

The question is, why restrict a SCH, job which can efficiently turn MP into damage with Stratagems, to just servicing the tank?

Sch's seem to be big fans of AoEing Stonskin, so why not throw a Phalanx on top of that if you can spare a charge?

It's a good question, the answer is that in part because AoE Stoneskin is more useful than Phalanx, since the former can help with magical as well as physical damage, and there are more magical than physical AoE damages to worry about.

And, in part because Stratagem is extremely valuable--there is no spare. (If there is a "spare" for which the player has nothing planned for, he's doing it wrong.)

[Sevv]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

I play it because RDM is the reason I bought the game I dont play it for the satisfaction of main healing a party, or enfeebling a moster, I play it because I like the concept of RDM every peice of it, from melee to nukes. I dont play this game to comfort other people nor do I play it to please other people. I play it for me, I like RDM because properly geared I can do anything in the game, which is evidently wrong according to most people here. I like the versatility, I like being able to come on everyday of the week and say to myself I think im going to melee today, or I think im going to nuke today. RDM as a comunity job sucks now since ToAU it has been downgraded by the community to refresh that is it which is why outside of doing things endgame wise that assist the community, I could care less about other people. I dont like the community because of how they veiw my job so in that sense I dont conform to the pigeon hole. Icemage BBQ Itaz and others assume I shirk my duties to get what I want, while that may be true to a degree, when I come to party I come as what I feel like playing, which means If i want to main heal I gear for it and only it, if I want to melee I gear for it and only it. You want a RDM who comes with 3 different gear setups on him at any time then find one. If im going to be playing you get the job I advertize in my search con, and if you dont like it, find someone else I can campaign, or build my own party.

Ok I am gonna finally comment on your posts, I have been good and not said anything for awhile. You play Red Mage to melee and nuke, well guess what you can do all this while soloing or in campaign battle! You should play it to make a good name for your self one not consisting of lolrdm, Yes you may be able to do almost anything in the game; but the difference is being able to do it well. Anyone can melee, but you can't melee well, anyone can tank but not everyone does it well. I am sorry that you haven't done endgame and feel that ToAU killed the game. Red Mage still to this day Enfeebles in endgame even will sub dark for stun. Some GOOD red mages even tank on certain HNMS, You want things and upgrades in terms of melee which is not what the job needs it what a few whiny kids on forums want so they can not have to main heal because they find it boring and are too lazy to level... dare I say it a second job!

Oh no lets not level a second job lets just bitch and complain to fix the job so I can be lazy and not put forth effort. Your posts make people view with a troll with little knowledge or one who is intentional trying to sound a bit slow.

/Pegs the troll with food

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

A BRD can also give 3 MP/tick to five BLMs faster than any RDM can. At no cost to its MP. Two songs is a small price to pay for such convenience.

Though in this situation Brd does win out, Rdm's refresh is still better in other situations. Though from my understanding, a good Cor would be better for a Blm PT as they can AoE refresh and boost magical abilities. Thus the balance.

AFAIK, SMN's Hastega is identical in potency to Haste from RDM and WHM. Duration is modifiable with skill+ equipment, too. BRD's March x2 can exceed RDM/WHM's Haste with the right instrument, IIRC.

Smn's Hastega is weaker in potency, shorter in duration, and equal to, if not similar in costs to 3(?) Hastes from a Rdm. And both March and Haste can stack, so it's not a matter of better in that situation as many times people would want both to reach that magic Haste cap.

Well, at least the conversation is finally turning the right way; is it worth it the JA timer to Phalanx the party... *snip*

To be honest, I had no idea Phalanx had a 3 minute duration.

That's three full recharges for Sch abilities. Much longer then stoneskin, which can wear off in 1-2 hits. And having that extra layer of protection on everyone in the PT, especially against AoE using mobs, sounds like a good thing to me. Though I will admit that a 25dmg reduction won't be all that useful against the super big hits.

In the end, it does all come down to the Charge used as that is the only downside to this ability. And I'm not going to sit here and argue that it's best to use Phalanx over other stuff, as I'm no Sch expert. All I'm just trying to suggest that A) it's not all that worthless a technique and B) it's still far better then what a Rdm, and even Smn who are in a similar situation as Sch, can do.

It's a good question, the answer is that in part because AoE Stoneskin is more useful than Phalanx, since the former can help with magical as well as physical damage, and there are more magical than physical AoE damages to worry about.

Doesn't Phalanx also cut down on Magical damage as well? They're both buffs meant to decrease the damage one takes, so if you're casting Stoneskinga to prevent AoE DMG Phalanx could still help.

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Though in this situation Brd does win out, Rdm's refresh is still better in other situations. Though from my understanding, a good Cor would be better for a Blm PT as they can AoE refresh and boost magical abilities. Thus the balance.

RDM's primary power in this context is that it doesn't have to sacrifice other job functions to provide Refresh.

Sure, a Bard can provide double Ballads to a tank party, but unless there are clearly defined spaces where mages and tanks are, the rest of their song repertoire aside from a fistful of offensive songs is off limits. Ditto for a Corsair.

Smn's Hastega is weaker in potency, shorter in duration, and equal to, if not similar in costs to 3(?) Hastes from a Rdm. And both March and Haste can stack, so it's not a matter of better in that situation as many times people would want both to reach that magic Haste cap.

Hastega has the same potency as Haste (15%). Duration is 90 seconds, plus 3 seconds per skill level over the cap, up to 180 seconds. At level 75, it is reasonable to assume that most summoners have at least +30 in skill gear available to them, which puts their duration on Hastega equal to that of the standard spell.

To be honest, I had no idea Phalanx had a 3 minute duration.

That's three full recharges for Sch abilities. Much longer then stoneskin, which can wear off in 1-2 hits. And having that extra layer of protection on everyone in the PT, especially against AoE using mobs, sounds like a good thing to me. Though I will admit that a 25dmg reduction won't be all that useful against the super big hits.

When was the last time you only took double digit damage at any endgame event if you're not a tank?

In the end, it does all come down to the Charge used as that is the only downside to this ability. And I'm not going to sit here and argue that it's best to use Phalanx over other stuff, as I'm no Sch expert. All I'm just trying to suggest that A) it's not all that worthless a technique and B) it's still far better then what a Rdm, and even Smn who are in a similar situation as Sch, can do.

It's not worthless, but it's certainly marginal. You don't generally see Summoners using Noctoshield - why would you assume that Scholars would be using Accession + Phalanx? The differences aren't so profound as to make you use one and not the other.

Doesn't Phalanx also cut down on Magical damage as well? They're both buffs meant to decrease the damage one takes, so if you're casting Stoneskinga to prevent AoE DMG Phalanx could still help.

No one's arguing the point that Accession + Phalanx is the most efficient/potent way to get Phalanx on a whole party. What we're questioning is the practical applications. There's just not many calls for cases where you have an entire party taking small bits of damage on a regular basis.

If you agree that Phalanxga, as a combat tool for players, is as marginal as I have been suggesting, then this whole argument is a tempest in a teacup.


Icemage

[Feenicks]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

How do I add people to my ignore list?

Edit: Nevermind, just worked it out.

[Raydeus]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Because you never would merit with me on kujata ; ;

You were always busy anyway.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Some RDMs think Refresh = Role definition for a RDM. If you're irked by BRDs and CORs being to AoE it, I'd remind you that Ballad came before Refresh ever did. RDM was one of the first jobs where roles started to be diluted and shared a little bit.

So then we had two jobs that could dispel and refresh. Only two. You couldn't have a good PT without a BRD or RDM from FFXI to the end of Chains of Promathia. Sure, there were mobs that didn't need dispel and people could just make juice, but the majority of players - at that time - were too chickenshit to fight a bird over a crab. Birds stripped Utsusemi like nobody's business and hitting the haste cap back then was a flight of fancy, hence why we didn't fight them, this forced us onto the dispel mobs and made RDM and BRD essential.

Along the way SMN gets Fenrir. Another means to dispel, though seldom used.

ToA comes along, Corsair is added. Another AoE "refresher." Many rushed it to 75, but discarded it after the expense became to high for them and some never bothered to learn what the value or just found it all too complex. Months later Dark Shot is adjusted to dispel. BLU mage gets dispels, too.

Three refreshers, four dispellers.

BLMs are forced to start adopting solo careers when colibri become popular and, thus, the use of /RDM is popularized by BLMs. Gravity, Phalanx, Blink, Stoneskin and Fast cast traits being the most commonly desired. /RDM was underutilized at endgame functions prior to ToA, but now is common place. Unfortunate side effect: fewer mages to cast raise, but then, many reraise items had made its way into the game by this time.

Moving into WotG, many issues are left unaddressed. There's a lack of players in the healer position, many jobs are still incapable of soloing anything and WHM and SMN are suffering from a lack of MP endurance. SCH - in my view, was just incomplete at the time of release.

DNC becomes the second job to have a native erase and plays like an inverse of BRD, enfeebling monsters for the benefit of melees hitting it instead of just buffing allies directly. PLD, NIN, PUP, WAR, SAM and COR really ended up making the best use of /DNC thus far, so now melee-oriented jobs can also be healers and status removers at the expense of thier TP.

This leaves the mage side to be dealt with.

SCH gets updated and pretty much completed. Klimaform, Addendum: White, Addendum: Black spells are added; Sublimation is also added as a job ability. SCH is freed up a bit from subjob dependancy and 70+ mages can gain more MP endurance from Sublimation.

SMN gets Spirit Siphon, which can be used in tandem with sublimation to regain a respectable amount of MP. COR and BRD now able to access Sublimation to restore MP even while they're buffing melees and Evoker's/Ballad buffs are down for them. DRG/SCH and BST/SCH are granted further solo endurance options aside from /DNC.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So let's look at all of this for a second. Lots of good has been done for the game, yet we're quibbling that SCH can AoE Phalanx, which hasn't been exclusive to RDM since we could hit 75?

Really? That's it? Where were you when Genkais were added? Where was the protest then?

I can point out SCH can AoE Enspells, Gravity, Drain, Aspir, Sleep II and that's not a problem for ya, its just that SCH can AoE Phalanx and restore its own MP through an ability that's unstackable with Refresh.

RDMs fail to look at how this liberates them. You just go uncorked from mage PTs at endgame to an extent, now BRD (or more preferably COR) can focus on supporting BLM PTs with thier AoE refresh stacking to a BLM/SCH's Sublimation. This means you have more direct access to tanking PT support and other possibilities instead of sinking your MP into babysitting BLMs.

Not to mention /SCH's Dark Arts raises elemental and dark magic skill for RDM, allowing thier Tier IIIs to be on par with SCH and get real benefits from Aspir instead of the lolAspir /BLM once gave. Additionally, Alacrity would allow you to use that Aspir more often or pass out raises more quickly.

But no, the princess RDMs aren't happy, they're frightened that they're losing thier little thrones. Well, tough shit, its about damn time you did. Guess what? BRD and COR are no longer requisite either, I've main healed plenty of PTs without the help of Refresh/Ballad/Evoker's.

If you've levelled a melee or mage, not needing RDM/BRD/COR can only be seen as a good thing. Now RDM/BRD/COR are a luxury invite instead of a mandatory one. I like that.

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

RDM's primary power in this context is that it doesn't have to sacrifice other job functions to provide Refresh.

Sure, a Bard can provide double Ballads to a tank party, but unless there are clearly defined spaces where mages and tanks are, the rest of their song repertoire aside from a fistful of offensive songs is off limits. Ditto for a Corsair.

I know that, and completely agree.

Hastega has the same potency as Haste (15%). Duration is 90 seconds, plus 3 seconds per skill level over the cap, up to 180 seconds. At level 75, it is reasonable to assume that most summoners have at least +30 in skill gear available to them, which puts their duration on Hastega equal to that of the standard spell.

If this is true then I stand corrected as I saw information that showed Smn haste being lower in potency and duration.

When was the last time you only took double digit damage at any endgame event if you're not a tank?

But I just said it wouldn't be that useful againt big hits...so in the end I'm agreeing with you on that point

It's not worthless, but it's certainly marginal. You don't generally see Summoners using Noctoshield - why would you assume that Scholars would be using Accession + Phalanx? The differences aren't so profound as to make you use one and not the other.

I thought it was because the Phalanx effect is weaker, has a shorter duration and costs a large amount of MP all while limiting what other buffs a Smn could give. Like I said, Smn is similar in Sch to the effect their buffs are all on a shared timer, but unlike Smn, Schs can do the same spell, on the same timer, with FAR more efficiency in both effect and MP costs.

No one's arguing the point that Accession + Phalanx is the most efficient/potent way to get Phalanx on a whole party. What we're questioning is the practical applications. There's just not many calls for cases where you have an entire party taking small bits of damage on a regular basis.

If you agree that Phalanxga, as a combat tool for players, is as marginal as I have been suggesting, then this whole argument is a tempest in a teacup.

But the major gripe from the start wasn't even about the effectivness of Phalanx itself, it was the fact that a Sch can cast Phalanx on other members of the pt with FAR more efficiancy then both Smn and Rdm combined. The spell itself does have use, though as it was pointed out it's somewhat limited, but that doesn't change the fact that Rdm and Smn's ability to grant the same ability fall short in almost every way compared to the ability of a Sch.

And the same could be said about Sch's ability to AoE -na spells, though it does take 2 charges(1 if you already have add: Whm up or subbing Whm) to do so initially, it's still FAR more efficiant then a Whm could ever do. It's little things, but it's still somewhat off putting to see how easily Sch can trump two of the older jobs so easily in casting things that they used to be the best at.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

And the same could be said about Sch's ability to AoE -na spells, though it does take 2 charges(1 if you already have add: Whm up or subbing Whm) to do so initially, it's still FAR more efficiant then a Whm could ever do. It's little things, but it's still somewhat off putting to see how easily Sch can trump two of the older jobs so easily in casting things that they used to be the best at.

You're still missing the point.

Whether RDM and WHM were "the best" at these things or not, they weren't highly utilized by either job. There's only a handful of situations where SCH might have an edge on RDM and WHM for thier ability, but just as few situations as WHM and RDM had the advantage of using these abilties.

So basically SCH has an edge to AoE a -na spell in ... what? Dynamis-Jeuno? Oh yes, this totally crushes Divine Veil.

Last time I saw Noctoshield I can't even remember, so I don't really see how SCH's AoE Phalanx is a huge edge for them.

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

I thought it was because the Phalanx effect is weaker, has a shorter duration and costs a large amount of MP all while limiting what other buffs a Smn could give. Like I said, Smn is similar in Sch to the effect their buffs are all on a shared timer, but unlike Smn, Schs can do the same spell, on the same timer, with FAR more efficiency in both effect and MP costs.

No, the potency isn't really even the issue. It's just not often that non-tanks take damage. Since Phalanx absorbs damage on a per-hit basis, its effect on overall battle is minimal for anyone who isn't taking many hits within its duration.

But the major gripe from the start wasn't even about the effectivness of Phalanx itself, it was the fact that a Sch can cast Phalanx on other members of the pt with FAR more efficiancy then both Smn and Rdm combined. The spell itself does have use, though as it was pointed out it's somewhat limited, but that doesn't change the fact that Rdm and Smn's ability to grant the same ability fall short in almost every way compared to the ability of a Sch.

Bards have four levels of Resist Silence. Red Mages have four levels of Resist Petrify. Would you like to know how often I've resisted Silence as a Bard 75, or Petrify as a 75 Red Mage? (answer: hardly ever... as in I can probably count the occasions on one hand for both jobs combined over the past four years)

Just because a job has the capability of doing something does not mean that said job ability is going to be particularly useful.

Saying that Accession + Phalanx is suddenly useful because it's more efficient than Noctoshield is like saying Bards are awesome at resisting silence because they have four times the trait of a Scholar.

And the same could be said about Sch's ability to AoE -na spells, though it does take 2 charges(1 if you already have add: Whm up or subbing Whm) to do so initially, it's still FAR more efficiant then a Whm could ever do. It's little things, but it's still somewhat off putting to see how easily Sch can trump two of the older jobs so easily in casting things that they used to be the best at.

Mana efficiency isn't really at issue here. The point of AoE -na spells that makes SCH good in that regard is that they can do it 8-10 times more often than a WHM (which is pretty retardedly stupid if you think about it). THAT ends up being a very useful application, since there are many cases when you'll have many players affected by a particular affliction frequently.

The same can not be said for Phalanxga, which has less than a handful of situations where it's practical in any context.


Icemage

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

So basically SCH has an edge to AoE a -na spell in ... what? Dynamis-Jeuno? Oh yes, this totally crushes Divine Veil.

Yeah, because there's totally not dozens and dozens and dozens of countless mobs that use AoE debuffs

...oh wait.

Last time I saw Noctoshield I can't even remember, so I don't really see how SCH's AoE Phalanx is a huge edge for them.

It's less about an 'edge' and all about fairness. Smn's AoE phalanx is on the same timer as Sch's, but the Smn one costs more then twice the MP, has a shorter duration and a lower potency. It's a glaring balance issue, that while not extremely detrimental to the overall gameplay, is something that should be addressed.

It's not like this one tiny thing would be hard to balance out either, a tweak here a buff there and voila, this problem no longer exists.

And I don't see anyone saying it's a major problem with the game, they're just pointing out that it *is* a slightly unfair issue that would be nice if it was more balanced.
______________________________

No, the potency isn't really even the issue. It's just not often that non-tanks take damage. Since Phalanx absorbs damage on a per-hit basis, its effect on overall battle is minimal for anyone who isn't taking many hits within its duration.

Ok, but I listed far more things then just the potency.

Bards have four levels of Resist Silence. Red Mages have four levels of Resist Petrify. Would you like to know how often I've resisted Silence as a Bard 75, or Petrify as a 75 Red Mage? (answer: hardly ever... as in I can probably count the occasions on one hand for both jobs combined over the past four years)

I thought the resist traits just lowered the duration of the effect rather then allowing you to complete prevent it. Like the Bar spells.

Saying that Accession + Phalanx is suddenly useful because it's more efficient than Noctoshield is like saying Bards are awesome at resisting silence because they have four times the trait of a Scholar.

I never said it was 'suddenly useful', but there are, and always were, times when there *is* a use for it. There's plenty of times where lots of people get hit often in a party. But even if it is just for the Tank, the Sch's version of Phalanx is *still* better to use because it's longer lasting and has a higher potency. It's not the "why" that's up for debate here, whether it's just one tiny, specific environment that this spell is needed to be cast, the fact remains that Sch's ability to use this spell totally blows away Rdms and especially Smns ability to do the *same* thing. It's a minor issue, but it's still a glaring lack balance where this spell is concerned.

Mana efficiency isn't really at issue here. The point of AoE -na spells that makes SCH good in that regard is that they can do it 8-10 times more often than a WHM (which is pretty retardedly stupid if you think about it). THAT ends up being a very useful application, since there are many cases when you'll have many players affected by a particular affliction frequently.

I know, that's why I brought it up.

The same can not be said for Phalanxga, which has less than a handful of situations where it's practical in any context.

Despite the limited amount of 'use' it might see, it's not about Phalanx's potency or practicality *at all*. It's that Sch's do it better in every way, shape and form, just like -na spells. Before when it was just Rdm and Smn with the ability, despite Smn's being able to AoE it, Rdm's still had an edge because theirs was better and cheaper. Now a job comes along that blows away the balance that *was* there by doing it better, cheaper and easier then *both* of those jobs combined. Even if it's used in one single, solitary, never-will-be-repeated fight, it's still an unbalanced situation.