Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

[Akashimo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

In any case, it's not anything to get upset about; Phalanx II is a merit option which few people would ever demand a RDM to have. If you don't want it, don't merit it.

Phalanx II is probally the only merit II spell I'll even consider maxing out just because I'm in a tank party majority of the time for events. Lets not forget, its both magic and physical resistance ;3
It saves plds from Genbu, destroyer of worlds!

Seriously though, I've barely see any sch on seraph to really raise the whole AoE phalanx from sch/rdm to be concerned with. But I am tempted to level it on Aka just to see how would sch/drk's aoe effect for the absorb spells work for myself ;x

Last statement for this post, this thread is starting to beat a dead horse on older issues.

[Karinya]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

So basically Itazura, you're telling me that it's not worth it for your SCH/RDM to Accession/Phalanx on the entire party for 44 MP, turning a tank into an even better tank and DDs into potential tanks, and that somehow years of successful soloing have not proven the value of stacking AoE Phalanx and Stoneskin?

Years of successful soloing have indeed proven the value of stacking Phalanx and Stoneskin... against easy prey mobs. Maybe decent challenge if you load them up with enfeebles.

Against an even match, you're going to have to be PLD/RDM to be able to rely on phalanx and stoneskin to take hits in the face and keep fighting. RDM main just doesn't have the def. Against anything higher than that, if a RDM is soloing it, they're either sleepnuking or dot kiting, probably subbing nin too.

Against an exp mob, a tank will get hit for 80 or so and some DDs will get hit for 150-200 (more if berserk). Phalanx (II or Accession) is not going to close that gap.

Meanwhile, meriting Phalanx 2 for 3 levels at 120k experience points toward the effort, all to spend 42 MP per person for less damage mitigated than the original spell and equal to what SCH/RDM offers... that's totally worth it.

You can cast it any time you want, without interfering with whatever else you're doing (aside from the MP, which isn't that much anyway). That's not true for SCH.

How many times are you going to want to phalanx more than 1 or *maybe* 2 people anyway? AoE Phalanx is about as useful as AoE ice spikes (which SMN has had forever, but does anyone care? heck no.)

As for SCH's aoe stoneskin - aren't they better off efficiency wise using aoe regen 2 instead?

[Sevv]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

guys why would s-e wasting time fixing your phalanx II when he could be fixing your melee! -.-

[Akashimo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

guys why would s-e wasting time fixing your phalanx II when he could be fixing your melee! -.-

made me lol.

And to answer, they're more likely to fix that and give us melee =p

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Mag, your post regarding the "alternate options" was actually decent.

BBQ, you like complaining so much, you often lose sight of the main discussion.

Honestly, this conversation is a lot more petty than it should be.

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

I really don't see what all the crying is about.

Does anyone really, really, REALLY want or need SCH for Accession + Phalanx instead of the host of other (much more useful) abilities they have?

Sure, it's an option, but how often would it actually see use? Chances are, even in a full-on endgame tank party, you're not working with more than 3 tanks at most.

Let's look at that tank setup, shall we?

It's usually:

Tank
Tank
Tank
Support
Support
Healer

If the tanks are Ninjas, the Supports tend to be Bards and/or Corsairs, and the Healer tends to be a Red Mage or White Mage.

If the tanks are Paladins, the Supports tend to be Bards, Red Mages and Corsairs, and the Healer tends to be a White Mage.

Let's say you replace the White Mage with a Scholar. He saves your RDM some MP for Phalanx II, but also has to spend Accession charges to manage Protectra IV and Shellra IV, unless you've got someone outside with a large amount of MP flow (like another RDM) who's going to be spending the better part of 1000MP every 30 minutes to keep these buffs up on the party - assuming they don't get dispelled/tanks get KO'd sooner.

Is this really the best use of a Scholar? I doubt it. Not when they can use those charges to become a quite effective nuker, or excellent crowd controller with Graviga or Bindga.

With a Phalanx II RDM, though, you don't give up anything to get access to Phalanx on your tanks. Sure, it costs a little extra MP, but there's a reason why RDM have the best MP flow in the game.


Icemage

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Years of successful soloing have indeed proven the value of stacking Phalanx and Stoneskin... against easy prey mobs. Maybe decent challenge if you load them up with enfeebles.

Against an even match, you're going to have to be PLD/RDM to be able to rely on phalanx and stoneskin to take hits in the face and keep fighting. RDM main just doesn't have the def. Against anything higher than that, if a RDM is soloing it, they're either sleepnuking or dot kiting, probably subbing nin too.

Against an exp mob, a tank will get hit for 80 or so and some DDs will get hit for 150-200 (more if berserk). Phalanx (II or Accession) is not going to close that gap.

Haven't Rdm been able to directly solo gods and other super HNM through the combined usage of Stoneskin+Phalanx+Utsu+other def boosts?

See, the thing is, Phalanx, on top of Stoneskin, noticably extends the amount of time Stoneskin is able to stay up. And if you're fighting an AoE using mob...which is just about most mobs in this game, shadows alone aren't always enough to prevent damage. But having a full strength Stoneskin+Phalanx stacked up every two minutes is pretty useful in my eyes.

And there's also the fact that the AoE Sch version costs 2 MP more then Phalanx II while being more potent from the beginning. And a 1 minute recast on a JA timer isn't really all that much of a limiting factor. If you want limiting, ask Whms with their 10 minute recast timer on a JA that has to be overwriten by their trait just to AoE -na spells.

As a melee, I can see why Rdm dislike the way this is set up. It takes something that was unique to Rdms and does it far better then they ever could.

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Haven't Rdm been able to directly solo gods and other super HNM through the combined usage of Stoneskin+Phalanx+Utsu+other def boosts?

See, the thing is, Phalanx, on top of Stoneskin, noticably extends the amount of time Stoneskin is able to stay up. And if you're fighting an AoE using mob...which is just about most mobs in this game, shadows alone aren't always enough to prevent damage. But having a full strength Stoneskin+Phalanx stacked up every two minutes is pretty useful in my eyes.

When using Utsusemi, you don't use Phalanx usually. The damage mitigation is relatively minimal for the MP expenditure and time spent casting.

And there's also the fact that the AoE Sch version costs 2 MP more then Phalanx II while being more potent from the beginning. And a 1 minute recast on a JA timer isn't really all that much of a limiting factor. If you want limiting, ask Whms with their 10 minute recast timer on a JA that has to be overwriten by their trait just to AoE -na spells.

As a melee, I can see why Rdm dislike the way this is set up. It takes something that was unique to Rdms and does it far better then they ever could.

There's no denying that Phalanx II is somewhat underpowered. It really should at least match Phalanx I at level 3, and not cost nearly double.

Even so, I don't see any convincing arguments in this thread about why you would actually want a SCH to be spending their time casting Phalanxga.


Icemage

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Against anything that uses AoEs that can't be blocked by utsu, against mobs that are too fast for Utsu to block against, for those fights and missions where it's not just the entire PT killing a single target and moving to the next and really, I see no reason not to cast it on a tank because Phalanx does help them take hits.

It may not be viable to keep it up 100% of the time, but there's no reason not to cast it, especially if you're also using SS because combining that with Phalanx is a very potent boost.

But in the end, it's not so much the 'use' of Phalanxga, but more the fact that a Sch can take one of Rdm's most unique tricks and do it much better. At least with Diabolos the MP cost was higher and the effect was lower (which also needs to be fixed imo). But Sch use similar MP to cast a stronger version and their only limiting factor is a 1 minute recharging JA.

[Icemage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Against anything that uses AoEs that can't be blocked by utsu, against mobs that are too fast for Utsu to block against, for those fights and missions where it's not just the entire PT killing a single target and moving to the next and really, I see no reason not to cast it on a tank because Phalanx does help them take hits.

It may not be viable to keep it up 100% of the time, but there's no reason not to cast it, especially if you're also using SS because combining that with Phalanx is a very potent boost.

But in the end, it's not so much the 'use' of Phalanxga, but more the fact that a Sch can take one of Rdm's most unique tricks and do it much better. At least with Diabolos the MP cost was higher and the effect was lower (which also needs to be fixed imo). But Sch use similar MP to cast a stronger version and their only limiting factor is a 1 minute recharging JA.

That's all besides the point, though. Aside from the single case of early Salvage rounds, where else is the 20-some-odd damage absorbed by Phalanxga going to be a tangible benefit, particularly at endgame, when most things are hitting for at least 200 a hit for non-tanks? lolAbsoluteVirtue?


Icemage

[Ziero]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

People grind, struggle, bite, scratch and claw their ways into items that give +1 or +2 stat boosts to a single stat just to optimize their efficiancy. And any sort of Dmg reduction is highly prized as being wanted and useful. I see no reason *not* to cast Phalanx on as many people as you can as long as it's not interfering with your overall performance as a job. Most people here say they'd rather cast Stoneskin-ga and that has a limited amount of HP saved, so how is casting Phalanx-ga, which ultimately does something very similar a bad thing? Especially when you can combine them and increase both buffs usefulness.

And again, it's not about actually casting the spell, it's that Sch's can do it far better then Rdm. They get it earlier, they cast it with the same amount of MP and it's far more MP efficient and potent then what a Rdm can do. And all of this with the only downside being that you need to use a charge on a 1 minute recast JA. Even if it's being used just to help the tank it's still better then having a Rdm do it.

[Malacite]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

That's not the point (to me anyway) Icemage. The point is SE is stepping on job's toes more and more and in ways that are fairly harsh. Yes, SCH has to choose which set of skills to use at any given time but the fact that it can nuke almost as well as a BLM and at the same time cast dispel is stepping on RDM's toes a bit, while Addendum: White is a steeltoed boot kick in the balls to WHM.

What's next, PLD (finally) getting provoke or a JA that essentially does the same thing? I'm all for spreading out abilities, but SE's gotta be more careful IMO. We're slowly creeping towards the point of nixing jobs into niche scenarios.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

I see no reason for a SCH to buff the party with their charges, then wait for the tanks to build hate, and use their charges offensively.

It's the beauty (and curse) of being a SCH.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Years of successful soloing have indeed proven the value of stacking Phalanx and Stoneskin... against easy prey mobs. Maybe decent challenge if you load them up with enfeebles.

Against an even match, you're going to have to be PLD/RDM to be able to rely on phalanx and stoneskin to take hits in the face and keep fighting. RDM main just doesn't have the def. Against anything higher than that, if a RDM is soloing it, they're either sleepnuking or dot kiting, probably subbing nin too.

Against an exp mob, a tank will get hit for 80 or so and some DDs will get hit for 150-200 (more if berserk). Phalanx (II or Accession) is not going to close that gap.

While not completely accurate, in a vacuum, you're correct--but it only drives my point further.
If indeed Phalanx just doesn't matter that much, then yeah, the SCH has better things to do with his Accession.

But wait! If that's the case, then the RDM too would have better things to spend on merits.

You can cast it any time you want, without interfering with whatever else you're doing (aside from the MP, which isn't that much anyway). That's not true for SCH.

How many times are you going to want to phalanx more than 1 or *maybe* 2 people anyway? AoE Phalanx is about as useful as AoE ice spikes (which SMN has had forever, but does anyone care? heck no.)

As for SCH's aoe stoneskin - aren't they better off efficiency wise using aoe regen 2 instead?

The minor interruption and charge you lose on Accession seems like a minor loss to extend the spell to the entire party. That's not just the tank, but anyone in the party with any tanking potential that doesn't involve shadows or Evasion.

If AoE Phalanx is really that useless, then a targetable Phalanx 2 is no different. And not worth meriting.

As a melee, I can see why Rdm dislike the way this is set up. It takes something that was unique to Rdms and does it far better then they ever could.

That's not the issue. That was NEVER the issue.

The issue is a standard having been re-established that must be addressed. In the past, it was Phalanx. Cheap, very good for it's price. Then came Noctoshield. Hefty price, weaker effect, but that was okay because it was giving an effect normally limited to one, to an entire party.

Same with Phalanx 2. Hefty price, inferior effect, but what you were paying for was the ability to give others an awesome effect normally reserved for yourself.

And along comes SCH, the 10 Mar update, and pays the same as RDM, minus merits, for an effect better than Noctoshield. At a lower level, no less.

The developers came and changed the standard with the update. Before they said "you must pay a hefty price to cast this on others," then said "oh, SCH doesn't have to." The value of RDM and SMN's equivalent spells must be addressed.



Not a single one of you here would go to a store with your buddy, put $2 down for a single can of beer, then watch your buddy get the same brand(or better) for the same price... in a six-pack.

If you're gonna try and defend RDM's Phalanx 2 over SCH's version, just be honest: you just like the way the spell looks, or you don't wanna go back and re-merit something else.

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

personally ive got 1 merit in each thing and dont care, they all suck monkey dick