Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

I can't really see myself using Accession+Phalanx unless it's an exp party where the front line people don't have Utsusemi and don't have a tank. Even then, Stoneskin has the priority when it comes to Stratagem usage.

In situations where I would use Phalanx II on RDM, typically there are no melee DDs in the tank party, and the DDs are supposed to respect the enmity threshold set by the tanks. My SCH isn't there yet, but I can easily imagine things I'd rather do with Stratagems instead of putting Phalanx on tanks or DDs.

SCH/RDM may get the stronger Phalanx on others, but it's less practical than RDM's Phalanx II in practice. Phalanx II is a nice little bonus for a RDM who wants it; it's not the end of the world SCH can do an AoE version by blowing a JA. No more than BRD's and COR's AoE refresh effects should make RDMs cry in distress.

It certainly isn't anything worth complaining about.

* * *

If I have to complain about anything, it'd be about other people using Sublimation making my Refresh bounce off. Now, that's really annoying.

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

well if you look at all past ff games the RDM type always had 1 type of damaging magic that the others couldnt cast. Hell Id even go for Demi or something that dealt 5-10% of a <T>'s hp based from our enfeebling skill. I mean our merits fucking suck bottom of the barrel mish mash of crap.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

SCH/RDM may get the stronger Phalanx on others, but it's less practical than RDM's Phalanx II in practice. Phalanx II is a nice little bonus for a RDM who wants it; it's not the end of the world SCH can do an AoE version by blowing a JA. No more than BRD's and COR's AoE refresh effects should make RDMs cry in distress.

It certainly isn't anything worth complaining about.

* * *

If I have to complain about anything, it'd be about other people using Sublimation making my Refresh bounce off. Now, that's really annoying.

Wow, backwards much?

SCH's AoE Phalanx is BY FAR more efficient than our own, because it lands on EVERYBODY. For us, we have to cast, wait for recast, cast again for the same effect. Not only that, giving other people our Phalanx subbed in the first place would be far more potent than us giving anybody a Phalanx II.

Bringing BRD and COR in to the argument is meaningless, since their own buffs fall in an entirely different category of their own.

Meanwhile, I don't see why Red Mages everywhere don't rejoice over the addition of Sublimation: all it does is gives us one less mouth to feed per person that uses the ability. It honestly doesn't get any sweeter than that lessening of our workload! The fact that it doesn't stack with Refresh is more a blessing than anything, and, like I said, since Rolls and Songs are entirely different things on their own, more dedicated Mages can still get Refreshes from them. It's a win-win situation!

[BurningPanther]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

I can't really see myself using Accession+Phalanx unless it's an exp party where the front line people don't have Utsusemi and don't have a tank. Even then, Stoneskin has the priority when it comes to Stratagem usage.

In situations where I would use Phalanx II on RDM, typically there are no melee DDs in the tank party, and the DDs are supposed to respect the enmity threshold set by the tanks. My SCH isn't there yet, but I can easily imagine things I'd rather do with Stratagems instead of putting Phalanx on tanks or DDs.

SCH/RDM may get the stronger Phalanx on others, but it's less practical than RDM's Phalanx II in practice. Phalanx II is a nice little bonus for a RDM who wants it; it's not the end of the world SCH can do an AoE version by blowing a JA. No more than BRD's and COR's AoE refresh effects should make RDMs cry in distress.

It certainly isn't anything worth complaining about.

* * *

If I have to complain about anything, it'd be about other people using Sublimation making my Refresh bounce off. Now, that's really annoying.

So you're telling me you wouldn't save up charges to stack Stoneskin and Phalanx on your team? RDMs have been doing it to great effect for years, I see no reason why they should be mutually exclusive now.

And really, what would be so much better for the tank party that you would say "I'm busy with this now, the RDM has lolPhalanx 2, right?" Tell me what else your SCH could possibly be doing other than improving the tanks' defense, or giving the DDs in that party a manner of taking capability.

If Phalanx 2 a "useful little spell?" Yeah, with emphasis on the little. In the same way that Aquaveil is useful. But the cost is not little at all. We pay a great deal more to do less. It's like SCH, SMN, and RDM walking into a bar, each of them putting down $5, and the SCH getting Guinness from the tap, RDM getting Natural Light, and SMN getting Pabst Blue Ribbon.

Phalanx 2 is good to some degree, I'll grant you, but before--and especially now--not worth meriting.

Not worth meriting.

If it were as accessible as every other spell 1-75 at a reasonable MP cost, then I'd give it a fair shake. But it's not, so I don't.

well if you look at all past ff games the RDM type always had 1 type of damaging magic that the others couldnt cast. Hell Id even go for Demi or something that dealt 5-10% of a <T>'s hp based from our enfeebling skill. I mean our merits fucking suck bottom of the barrel mish mash of crap.

Which FF games were those? RDM has historcally been middle of the road in it's spells, with the option to pick a path and become more wizardly or warrior-like. In what game was that different?

We're not WHM--we shouldn't heal as good, and as such, we're not BLM--we shouldn't nuke as good as one.

There's other things they can do with merits than add something as inappropriate as another nuke.

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Hey common now there is nothing wrong with PBR, I did a 3 week bender last summer with PBR alone its a damn fine brew.

As for the nuke thing it wasnt implied to just give us a nuke, it was more on the emphasis to focus on things we call our own. Sure we are the masters of enfeebling but those could easily be targeted 60-75 when we get teir 3 nukes, pro and shell (thats it iirc). The only spell outside of our cruddy merits that is acctually our own is Refresh @ 41. Now we are also the masters of enhancing (hold your whm has -ra arguement) possibly providing an addition spell in the merits that was an enhancing spell for rdm only, perhaps something like Wall (pro/shell combo) or reflect (reflects a spell back at the mob). Or focus more on our trade mark RDM only enfeebles, gravity for one. Perhaps give us another one stop for instance, can be a stun like spell on a similar timer.

All I know is Teir 2 enfeebles are shit at best, Phalanx 2 is nice with 5 levels but that leaves you none for anywhere else. I think a possible restructure of merits should be in order, that or some additional RDM only spells in the higher levels of the game 60-75 (wall, reflect, stop, demi) hell Ill take a self targeting spell that changes me into a moogle. I just want something to call my own.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

So you're telling me you wouldn't save up charges to stack Stoneskin and Phalanx on your team?

Stoneskin, yes, but probably not Phalanx.

Scholar is very flexible, but chained to the recast of Arts and Stratagems. Any full-time use of Accession has to be justified; Protectra and Shellra are a definite; two JAs, and lasts for 30 minutes. Stoneskin to cover AoE damage or occasional DD going over enmity line, sure, plus it'll save curing MP on the tank.

Blowing a Stratagem every three minute for AoE Phalanx, which only the tank really get use out of, though, is more questionable. How much does the tank need it? Would the party/alliance benefit more from using the Stratagem in some other way? In short, what is the opportunity cost?

For the RDM, it's the same idea: What is the opportunity cost? Is there something better a RDM can do with the 42 MP and 3 second cast time? (Obviously, no JA is involved for RDM.) Is it worth it for the duration?

On the balance, it's more worthwhile to a RDM who has Phalanx II to use it than for a SCH/RDM to keep up Phalanx-ga. Of course, Phalanx II isn't for every situation, but it's certainly nice for the likes of Faust or Byakko.

RDMs have been doing it to great effect for years, I see no reason why they should be mutually exclusive now.

For soloing? Sure, I stack Stoneskin and Phalanx and Blink and Aquaveil all the time.

In heavy toe-to-toe alliance fight? Phalanx II for tanks. No Phalanx for me--not worth the MP or time.

And really, what would be so much better for the tank party that you would say "I'm busy with this now, the RDM has lolPhalanx 2, right?" Tell me what else your SCH could possibly be doing other than improving the tanks' defense, or giving the DDs in that party a manner of taking capability.

If you limit yourself to damage mitigation, sure, you're right. Then again, SCH is much more flexible than that, isn't it?

Regen II-ga
1/2 MP cost on Tier IV nuke.
1/2 time Raise II
Stoneskin-ga
Gravity-ga
Bind-ga
Aspir-ga (for quick MP restore)

(Probably left out quite a few things.)

Whether a SCH should use Accession+Phalanx depends on whether doing more of the other things with Stratagems would be more useful.

Phalanx 2 is good to some degree, I'll grant you, but before--and especially now--not worth meriting.

Not worth meriting.

It depends on what you do, really. Keep some perspectives; there's nothing you have to merit. Or level to 75. It's a game, and only a game...

If Phalanx II just make you mad, don't touch it. It costs you no gil or time to leave it alone.

* * *

Phalanx II is working out for me, since my Sky/Limbus LS is full of RDMs who have other things merited. Having it makes me useful, in a slightly different way, so I don't have a real complaint against it.

Now, would I recommend other RDMs to merit it? That depends on what they do and what they want to do.

Opportunity cost is the real question, again. Would spending those limit points on other merits be better for the person? Spending time other than on meriting be more fun? Etc. Each person has to answer that for himself.

Heck, the "real" reason I merited it was because a friend who I thought will become the main tank said it'd be nice to have--good enough of a reason to grind the limit points for me.
______________________________

Wow, backwards much?

SCH's AoE Phalanx is BY FAR more efficient than our own, because it lands on EVERYBODY. For us, we have to cast, wait for recast, cast again for the same effect. Not only that, giving other people our Phalanx subbed in the first place would be far more potent than us giving anybody a Phalanx II.

It's great, when everyone needs Phalanx.

Now, tell me, when does everyone need Phalanx?

In the context how the game is played, it really only amounts to a marginal advantage over RDM, and only when there's nothing better to use a Stratagem for.

Let me put it this way: as someone who actually has Phalanx II merited (Lv.2), I'm more amused than miffed.

Bringing BRD and COR in to the argument is meaningless, since their own buffs fall in an entirely different category of their own.

If AoE Phalanx is great in your book in part for being AoE, then we can compare, well, comparable buffs from RDM that's single target vs. from other jobs which are not.

Granted, it's not a perfect comparison, but the point is that just because another job is capable of AoE version of certain type of buff doesn't put RDM out of business.

* * *

Honestly, way too much useless anger and angst in this thread. It's not even a new issue; we knew SCH can Accession+Phalanx pretty much right from the start.

[Malacite]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Again though you're missing my point BBQ, which you inadvertently helped and that is that SE, for all their efforts has dropped the ball on a number of areas. We've got a lot of jobs stepping on each other's toes now.

Oh yeah and so what if BLU can AoE Memento Mori? That's still a 10-minute JA at best where as COR can do it with little to no trouble and at fairly reliable potency. It's not the same at all as a SCH being able to spend 1 stratagem to AoE any white magic buff when @ 70 they will be gaining charges once every minute. Never mind what a complete slap in the face the Addendums are to WHM BLM and RDM.

Now, for the record I actually do like the addendums, but in light of this said mages could use a few more unique spells or abilities to even things out. Like, how about Haste II or a healing spell to remove Amnesia for WHM? Some kind of offensive party buff for BLMs would be great (I'm looking at you, Steel!) and as for RDM, well, apart from soloing aspects I see no good reason not to give them that 3rd MAB trait now that SCH can out nuke them.

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

RDM dosent need an MB trait, we need MAC traits, id much rather MDB, MAB traits we currently have to be replaced by MACC traits. We are not designed to be a damaging job, No amount of MAB will help us if we have the all mighty crap acc that RDM's have.

I agree with the WHM having amnesia curative spell that move is nasty as hell and chances are, there will be no rings. Of course you could always pull the same card as a BRD/COR/RNG I know and say that its their responsibilty to bring tools themselves not the job that can help them.

All in all the dynamics of RDM are pretty sound and its not really flawed, it just needs some perks to bring its other useful traits back to the game. That may mean an increase in spell potency a rework of merits etc. I strongly prefer a merit reworking. To offer some more RDM only spells in the MID-Late game. Personally when I was leveling RDM the only thing I looked forward too was my excalibur (on teir 4 only need 50 mil gil to finish ^^). I think more jobs will make it through the grind if there were more spells offered at those levels. It may also help to bring enfeebling back to the game since NIN can overwrite our teir 1's.

lvl 63. Slow 2 (potency of a base merit skill)
lvl 66. Para 2 ( " ")
lvl 69. Blind 2 (" ")
lvl 72. Dia 3 (1 minute duration)
lvl 75. Bio 3 (1 minute duration)

all spells RDM only

and in their place add some more usefull merits

Sleep 3 (same duration as sleep 2 ) each additional increases ACC
Stop (based off enfeebling magic same effect as stin) increase length of stun
Gravity 2 (increased gravity effect) each additional point increases effect
Wall (single target Shell/Pro same effect as teir 3) additional points increase effect
Demi (deals damage proportionate to base enfeeblings skill 100% at maximum of 10% to mob minimum 5%) increases damage % by 10 of enfeeb skill (27.6 at 75)

basically how I see demi working, is like this

276(enfeebskil) + 5% <t> HP

so on a 10000 hp mob that would equate to

500+276 or 776

adding 27.6 for each extra skill. (damage will lessen per use in reflection of mobs HP)

additionally you can use enfeebling merits to pump this to a higher out put.

allternativley on a 1000 HP mob you can only deal 100 damage then 90 then 80 and so on.


Sleep 3 will be used as a more accurate sleep 2


Wall will be used as a cheap way to buff the party or self with a maximum defense boost to equate a pro 4 shell 4.

Keeping phalanx 2 as a 6th and final group 2 merit.

In this you will have the option of using lesser effective merits (ie. sleep 3/wall)
or focus on more effective merits such as demi stop and gravity

Im just spit ballin, personally I wouldnt like new spells but a direct fix to the shitty merit spells we already have seems like a waste of effort since the overall use of these spells compared to other jobs group 2 merits is highley limited as is.

[BurningPanther]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

So basically Itazura, you're telling me that it's not worth it for your SCH/RDM to Accession/Phalanx on the entire party for 44 MP, turning a tank into an even better tank and DDs into potential tanks, and that somehow years of successful soloing have not proven the value of stacking AoE Phalanx and Stoneskin?

Meanwhile, meriting Phalanx 2 for 3 levels at 120k experience points toward the effort, all to spend 42 MP per person for less damage mitigated than the original spell and equal to what SCH/RDM offers... that's totally worth it.

Is that what you're trying to say? I'm just trying to understand here.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Again though you're missing my point BBQ, which you inadvertently helped and that is that SE, for all their efforts has dropped the ball on a number of areas. We've got a lot of jobs stepping on each other's toes now.

Would you like it better if no jobs could refresh themselves but RDM? It used to be that way. Would you like it if BRD and RDM were the only dispellers? It used to be that way. Would you like RDM and WHM to be the only viable healers in the game? It used to be that way.

I'd rather not go back to the way things were just for the sake or some hackneyed concept of "balance." RDM and BRD were forced on PTs for a lot of things and now they're no longer a neccessity and players are are starting to realize that they can move forward and level without these jobs just fine.

Oh yeah and so what if BLU can AoE Memento Mori? That's still a 10-minute JA at best where as COR can do it with little to no trouble and at fairly reliable potency.

You're making my point for me. The function is similar, but not an exact duplication of what Wizards Roll does, which ultimately wins out for the duration it is active. A lot of the abilities and merits I pointed out have a similar function, but those functions aren't duplicated exactly by another job, they differ.

It's not the same at all as a SCH being able to spend 1 stratagem to AoE any white magic buff when @ 70 they will be gaining charges once every minute. Never mind what a complete slap in the face the Addendums are to WHM BLM and RDM.

But the choice is in fact the tradeoff here. To even be doing AoE Erase, for example, I have to activate two strategems for that to happen and have Light Arts active to even do it.

SCH can't do everything its effective at all the time, that's the whole catch and what distinguishes its job from others - it has to choose its specialization at any given time. That's the balance of the job.

[Malacite]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Yes and no BBQ. How often do you find yourself flipping between LA and DA repeatedly in the same fight?


I agree that more jobs being able to do the same thing is a good thing in general, but there are certain boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. Using RDM's tier 2 merits as an example again, let's look at the possible (or at least what was at the time) damage done by this;

Dia III: Okay, that's fine. RDM gets Dia before everyone else anyway.

Bio III: WTF? They gave them a spell that BLM's get first, and don't even consider DRK (or now SCH)

Slow II: Well, there went any possibility of Time Mage.

Blind II: Pointless, stupid spell. Should have just been a scroll.

Phalanx II: Already talked about this.

Paralyze II: Again, should have just been a higher level scroll that was RDM only.


I really don't agree with making so many spells exclusive. Most jobs are differentiated by their abilities and not so much their magic. I just don't think it's a good idea. Make more scrolls, and make them difficult to get (how about Relic spells? Shit SCH already has an AF spell.)


Then there's the general lack of abilities for RDM (being a mage and all). This is where a melee while casting trait would have been awesome, or maybe something like Crimson Seal that would boost the potency of your next enfeeble? (similar to how QD boosts spells only stronger)


This goes double for the absolute shit some of the other jobs got like Protectra V and Martyr (Honestly wtf? Devotion is good, but sacking HP to give HP? Niche much?)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

It depends on the PT, I don't always affix myself to Light or Dark Arts.

If I really need to keep Dispel up, I'll accept the higher cost and longer casting time of white magic just to be able to have the spell available through Dark Arts and Addendum: Black. It wouldn't be completely beyond reason to nuke from Light Arts, but it would be much less effective than the reverse.

But then Regen II just duration based anyway and some white magic cures would still be passable with D skill. It would cut deeper into my MP, but it really depends on the damage the PT is taking if I'll stay in that mode or not.

[MrMageo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

speaking of bio 3 200 drark skil ftl

[Akashimo]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

Skill only effects damage for landing the effects.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Phalanx II we hardly knew ye

So basically Itazura, you're telling me that it's not worth it for a SCH/RDM to on the entire party for 44 MP, turning a tank into an even better tank and DDs into potential tanks, and that somehow years of successful soloing have not proven the value of stacking AoE Phalanx and Stoneskin?

It's 44 MP and a job ability. Don't forget the JA part and the implication of recast timer!

Of course the 44 MP isn't an issue, compared to Phalanx II's cost. The real question is, can the SCH find a better use for that shared job ability timer? The answer is "Yes, usually."

Now, for DDs without Seigan or Utsusemi, and when there's no real tank, then Accession+Phalanx can be the best way to use the Stratagem. That's probably the only scenario I'd endorse the use of it, though. Can't really think of another common situation, outside of oddball activities like attempts to melee-burn Faust or something. (Is that even possible? I don't have much experience with 'zergs'.)

By the way, I pretty much said Phalanx II isn't good for all situations, but it's worth reiterating--there are plenty of instances where keeping Phalanx from any source on a tank isn't worth any MP or JA. The effect of Phalanx is just not that useful unless a person keeps getting hit by physical attacks. Don't be too dazzled by SCH's AoE trick. At least, not this one.

Meanwhile, meriting Phalanx 2 for 3 levels at 120k experience points toward the effort, all to spend 42 MP per person... that's totally worth it.

Is that what you're trying to say? I'm just trying to understand here.

That's a blatant distortion of what I've written.

My position is fairly nuanced; in situations where tanks do need Phlanx, and both RDM and SCH are available, is the alliance better off with RDM casting Phalanx II or SCH/RDM using Accession Phalanx?

The answer is that most of the time, I'd rather the RDM do it, if the RDM has the spell.

Obviously that precludes situations where everyone's getting hit by physical attacks constantly. When and if that is the case, of course, SCH/RDM should consider putting Phalanx on all, since it'd be impractical for a RDM to do so with Phalanx II.

* * *

Concrete example of Phalanx on tank

Let's check out one real example where Phalanx on the tank is good, and see what a SCH can do if added to the mix.

Kited Ix'Aern (DRG) fight

Tank Party:
PLD/NIN
WHM/BLM
RDM/BLM

BLM Party:
BLM/RDM
BLM/RDM
WHM/BLM (dual box'ed)
RDM/BLM
BRD/WHM

This Ix'Aern hits like a truck, so PLD/NIN kites.

At the start of the fight, Gravity lands well, and lasts a long time. Phalanx? Not needed at all, by anyone but one the BLM/RDM's. (The BRD and one of the BLM are responsible for kiting the three Wyverns.)

The PLD/NIN runs around the perimeters of the room, while the mages DoT and BLMs nuke. However, Gravity will start to last for shorter and shorter duration, and becomes more and more difficult to land. Eventually, it'll wear off almost instantaneously even when it lands.

When Gravity becomes iffy is when Phalanx becomes handy for the PLD; don't think anyone would dispute that.

The RDM in tank party has Phalanx II, but let's add a SCH/RDM to the alliance; how would you use the Scholar?

Scenario 1:

SCH/RDM joins the tank party, and keeps up Accession+Stoneskin and Accession+Phalanx.

This isn't too useful at the start of the fight. With Gravity landing well, it's actually fairly low risk for the PLD to take a hit or two, recast Utsusemi, run away, then cure himself with enmity gear to generate a positive CE blance.

Mid fight, when PLD has the Ix'Aern pretty much secured, while Gravity becomes inconsistent, Stoneskin and Phalanx definitely be helpful. Except, the PLD is still running around in a circle, so landing Stoneskin or even Phalanx with Accession can be tricky.

Can coordinate with the PLD to stop moving for it, but without blowing Celerity, too, it'd be rather dangerous for Stoneskin (and maybe even Phalanx). Besides, that'd be 3 Strategems for two buffs if done that way, for the benefit of the PLD, at the same time adding to the danger by making PLD stop running at SCH's buff times.

Scenario 2:

SCH/RDM leaves the PLD to the care of WHM and RDM, and kites the Wyverns x3 with Gravity-ga and Bind-ga.

This takes the pressure off BRD and BLM, neither of which are terrible well suited for kiting those unsleepable Wyverns. Of course, this means the SCH would be away from the main fight a good deal of time, and won't be applying Stoneskin or Phalanx to the tank much, if at all.

Scenario 3:

The SCH/RDM is inexperienced with kiting and the layout of the place, so elects to play as a nuker in the BLM party. Instead of just applying helix, uses Addendum: Black stratagem as needed to toss out tier IV nukes, and abuses Parsimony to reduce MP cost.

Given the original alliance had only one BLM full time and one BLM part time (since he's kiting), SCH as nuker will substantially shorten the fight time.

Remember the building resist to Gravity? And the nasty Wyverns x3 fluttering all over the place? By shortening the fight time, the SCH would contribute substantially to the PLD and the alliance's safety, without ever casting Phalanx or Stoneskin on anyone else.

Not to mention getting things done faster so people can go eat dinner or go to sleep.

* * *

That was not a contrived example; I did Ix'Aern (DRG) last night with that exact setup, sans the Scholar. As I am leveling SCH (when time permits), I was thinking about how exactly I would help out in that fight, if on SCH.

Acession+Phalanx definitely is not the way to go, especially when a RDM has Phalanx II; it's quite easy to find much better things to do with SCH's Stratagems.

My preference would be Scenario 3 (nuker) until I get used to the layout of the place, then move to Scenario 2--SCH/RDM is tailor made for kited crowd control.

Even if stuck in Scenario 1 for some reason, shouldn't the SCH offload the Phalanx to the RDM, who can apply Phalanx II while the PLD is running full out?

Which of three scenario would you pick? And, if you're the SCH, would you ask the RDM to take on Phalanx for the tank or use Accession for that?

* * *

It really isn't that Accession+Phalanx is bad per se--it's just that a SCH really do have much better things to do with the Stratagems most of the time.

* * *

Now, do I think Phalanx II's potency can be boosted a bit without wrecking the game balance? Sure. But, that's a very far from saying Phalanx II is worthless.

In any case, it's not anything to get upset about; Phalanx II is a merit option which few people would ever demand a RDM to have. If you don't want it, don't merit it.