RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

My overall problems the this "guide" are that its not comprehensive, poorly organized, too "mathy" and that the OP admits what most people would have argued in the first place:

In most EXP PTs and alliance situations, RDM melee just isn't effective. This is especially at endgame, save for possible Salvage and Limbus scenarios.

Most of all, any good Enspells could do, the update changed things so SMN and SCH could make them more effective for other party members. The effect is now determined by the caster's Enhancing skill, not the target's. So in situations where a DNC isn't present, SCH and SMN can give a greater cumalative effect with the enspells than a RDM could give by themselves.

SE kicked RDM in the nads March 8th, and RDMs just kept smiling. Maybe you had Stoneskin up, but you'll feel it later.

I don't see a single thing in the update that affected RDM gameplay in the slightest(this isn't exactly a positive thing). Yes, a SCH and a SMN can now give party Enspells, SMN ones are barely 13 damage unresisted, a SCH could actually hit a decent 19. However, neither of these jobs have Refresh or 15% Haste, they aren't going to be taking RDM's spot in the party anytime soon, unless they feel like playing main healer, which is fine with me, they can have that spot. It frees me up to be a buffer/puller, not like most RDMs enjoy being stuck in the Pink Mage role to begin with.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

SE kicked RDM in the nads March 8th, and RDMs just kept smiling. Maybe you had Stoneskin up, but you'll feel it later.

LOL!

It's true that RDM is now slightly less necessary for XPing in the 41+ range at least for the time being, since Scholar is currently the most common main job mage in the non-75 XP levels, and Scholars don't particularly "need" a RDM (though they still get some benefit if there's one present).

I'll add that I don't really see how much of anything has changed for RDM melee. RDM weaponskills without an EX-capable sub like /PLD or /DRK for Vorpal Blade aren't particularly amazing. Enspell damage is still laughable in an XP setting, even with the new improved accuracy on Enspells.

Mostly where I think RDM melee really shines is in solo or small group (2-4 players) going after specific targets like NMs. This, more than anything, is where the boost to Enspell accuracy makes the most difference.


Icemage

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

LOL!

It's true that RDM is now slightly less necessary for XPing in the 41+ range at least for the time being, since Scholar is currently the most common main job mage in the non-75 XP levels, and Scholars don't particularly "need" a RDM (though they still get some benefit if there's one present).

I'll admit there's probably better things to do with my strategems than do Accession + Enspells, but if there's no DNC present to override it with Sambas, I don't see the harm, especially now that SCH can viably use any sub and still access the needed WHM tricks via Addendum: White. Its just now that I can give enspells to a whole PT based on my own skills, its going to add to the party DoT more than just some RDM Enthundering himself and thwacking the mob with his sword.

As far as the sword goes, the native WS RDM gets aren't terribly amazing. I would know because COR gets the same exact sword skills. Thing is, I use that joytoy to feed a boomstick TP, I can now proc a drain effect and with the right amount of Store TP gear and buffs and I can pop a slug shot and usually have enough TP left over to toss out a cure. Compared to all that, enspells are so cool.

The addition of SCH and DNC to FFXI is much more radical than the additions or RoZ and ToA jobs, designed to make PTs less dependant on "refreshers." I was hoping for a paradigm shift when COR, BLU and PUP came, but it never really happened, but with DNC and SCH it has and not only that, its made many jobs prior to WotG radically different. Its not going to hurt a RDM, BRD or COR's invite rate, but at the same time, they're no longer "needed" for every last thing in the game, which I consider a good thing.

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Head butt is a nice addition for stunning TP moves however it tends to fail fairly often due to the lower skill level.

Interrupts spells almost 100% of the time though, and that was with a lvl 12 Blu sub vs EM mobs to a lvl 75 Drg.

DoT is the best way to play as a RDM melee. Here I will focus on a dual wielding Justice and Joyeuse. This is to represent the best overall DoT.

Ok I will assume that Player A is using Fencer Ring, and hollow earring for +8 to enspells

I will say Player B is a Dark Knight/WAR using Orichalum Scythe hitting @ 85% consistently for 150 damage.

For the purpose of this both players will not have haste

*note this is a theoretical comparison of DoT, not a comparison between RDM vs. DRK melee*

Problem with this comparison is that you have the Rdm fairly pimped out while the Drk isn't. With all the work that goes into getting a Hollow Earring I have to ask where is the Drk's Brutal Earring and Askar Korazin? You also aren't taking into effect Berserk, the fact that the Rdm will be eating sushi and the Drk will be eating meat dishes, which will skew the numbers more in the Drk's favor. The Drk also isn't using any of their spells by your comparison, while granted, neither are you, but a Drk's spells factor more into their damage than a Rdm's do with the Absorb spells.

Your comparison is highly biased by comparing a well geared Rdm vs a Drk without being as comparably well equiped, and this statement:

As you can see the well equipped RDM with enspells has dealt roughly the same amount of damage over the course of 24 seconds as the DRK.

Is highly inaccurate if you are wanting to make even a theoretical comparison of DoT. I would expect the gap to widen further once WS are brought into account.

The result is further biased since there are different accuracy forumlas for two handers vs one handers.

Just for comparison purposes, let's take a look at a hume lvl 75 rdm/nin and hume lvl 75 drk/war.

Rdm/nin has a max dex of 66, sword skill caps at 250
Drk/war has a max dex of 70, scythe skill caps at 276

50% of 66 = 33
75% of 70 + 26acc from higher skill = 78.5 =78 rounded down.

So a 78-33= 45 accuracy difference between the two of them.

There really ought to be more than a 5% accuracy difference between the two of them if that is the case.

[Ziero]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

I don't recall offhand if ranged attacks reset the attack timer, but spellcasting definitely does not; they just put the attack timer on hold while you're casting.

Ah, ok, I thought it was something like that. And if that's the case, then it throws off the OPs 'battle walkthrough' timer completely.

[Phanex]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

While it is true, MrMageo sounds like a broken record about melee RDMs, lol, flaming him over this, again and again, is kinda redundant. A few things I saw while reading this guide:

A few things he can add to his guide if he wishes.

/drk (listed as a Light Con) offers Stun.

I know he mentioned it in the paragraph below /drk, but meh, it’s a con.

/blu you can get Beast Killer, Auto Regen, Lizard Killer, Undead Killer and Resist Sleep.

/nin MP free & MP agro free Invisible/Sneak Spells for those hard to reach areas



As for the things I saw while reading the replies of others.

Meh, the only people I see getting kicked in the nuts is MrMageo. I see him getting bashed more than most people on this server.

While it is something he’s stating what subs he has atm, I’m sure he’ll update his little guide as time goes on and he’s able to try all his /subs while as a melee RDM. Plus I’m sure he’ll add more info as he gets some from the community, those few who will help him.

Plus I don’t recall anyone/anything stating on this particular forum that someone can’t post something they feel like sharing with the rest of the community. Or did I miss that somewhere when I signed up? So bashing someone is kinda…moot. IF that’s a real word…

Yeah the Headline is kinda misleading, but he never stated “The new Abilities given on the update on 3/08/08 to help a melee RDM”. So he’s sorta just saying, a new Guide, right? I dunno.

I personally don’t DD while in Merit Party or any Party on my RDM, mainly because I’m a Pink Mage atm. The only time I do DD is when I am coffer hunting, while we are hunting for NMs or helping others with missions.

Now if I had a WHM or SCH present who is Main heal, and I’m there to just REFRESH and HASTE…meh I might throw my sword or dagger around for fun. If the others don’t mind, which often times they won’t.

So in a nut shell what I’m trying to say is this. You don’t beat a retarded child, he can’t help it, same goes for MrMageo, he loves the idea of a DDing RDM in a party. Is he wrong? Some most would say Yes, others would Say No, but please stop beating a dead horse with the flames.

[Ziero]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

While it is true, MrMageo sounds like a broken record about melee RDMs, lol, flaming him over this, again and again, is kinda redundant. A few things I saw while reading this guide

So in a nut shell what I’m trying to say is this. You don’t beat a retarded child, he can’t help it, same goes for MrMageo, he loves the idea of a DDing RDM in a party. Is he wrong? Some most would say Yes, others would Say No, but please stop beating a dead horse with the flames.

I don't see anyone flaming anyone in this topic. If you consider countering and correcting information provided as flaming then that's a problem in and of itself. It's not that people are against melee Rdm, infact there are plenty of guides that show great examples of how, why, when and what is needed to excel at meleeing as a Rdm.

It's just when biased information and incorrect assumtions are used in something called a guide, people will step up and correct that information. And if someone considers that to be flaming then it's their problem, not the communities.

[Phanex]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Well I'm also including a bit of the other posts in other threads as well, my bad, I should've mentioned that part too.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

While It is true that the update didint offer us anything RDM particular. Enspells being more effective mean a great boost to our overall damage over time. Prior to this update enspells were very finiky, sometimes you could hit for consistent damage other times it was all over the map. All this update has done is made our Damage consistent, and thats a boost in my eyes.

As for my mini battle walk through it is accurate. With RDM/NIN using a Justice, Joy there is 6 seconds between attacks. Our longest spell casting @ 4 seconds (refresh), properly time you can get all your spells of between swings.

As for the RDM-DRK comparison. I have a hollow earring because being a RDM requires an utmost respect to gear. It is very expensive, and often takes alot of work to aqquire peices. Any RDM who has not spent an equal amount if not more on his/her melee set vs casting setup has no business even thinking about melee.
I have spent nearly 1.5mil on my gear so far and I am still missing a few key peices SH + PCC come to mind.

SubChoice wise, /BLM, nor /WHM do not offer optimal preformance as a melee sub. They simply lack any bonus' to melee. While it is true that RDM melee is not damage but DoT, it dosent hurt to extend that DoT as high as it can go.

As for its usefulness or effectiveness in a party, I agree that most situations require RDM to pick up a staff. However there are times when you want to get XP and can only find a handfull of people, sometimes you settle yourself for a WHM,RDM backline or other times you may have a RDM,RDM back line. In these situations where you are not 100% responsible for your parties maitnence, rdm melee is useful and effective.

This guide is mathy because without facts to back up my numbers, this could be taken as another whine thread. I chose to included enspell math, as well as DoT math to provide you with formulas to use for your own calculations.

For example PLAYER X wants to see how well he will melee, he uses the enspell chart to figure out his damage. He uses the delay to figure out is time between swings. The accuracy to find how many hits he will land. Its simply a tool for others to use.

In no way is Stun a slight con or a con at all. Stun offers the greatest tool outside dual weild from all the subs. A 100% garunteed lull in combat for the mob, enough to replae SS, enough to have someone escape, replace shadows, re apply sleep. Its probably the greatest utility tool a RDM melee can bring to a party.

Headbutt for me only goues off about 30% of the time and that is being generous, all though my sub is not 37 yet. However it still fails to proc even on EP, or TW's in certain areas. I dont know if blue magic works like BST sub or not but If it only proc's @30% on TW then I dont see it changing much over the next 7 levels.

As for the ACC comparison to dark admitedly I do not know much outside of what I see in parties. Id say 90% of the time they do no cast spells (on my server at least) When they dont sub SAM they are wiff machines. Missing an attack on them really hurts 16 seconds of no damage (in the above examples weapon choice.) Not tryig to over glorify RDM melee but a consistent 80% ACC over 6 second intervals (less if not dual weild) is more effective than a slightly more accurate drk who misses once and is doing no damage for 16 seconds.(prolly why DRKs dont get parties me thinks)



Planned Additions
- Moar Damage
- MACC Isues
- Macros

[LadyKiKi]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Planned Additions
- Moar Damage
- MACC Isues
- Macros

In a melee guide? Or do you mean the accuracy of enspells (resists and what not).

[Ziero]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

As for my mini battle walk through it is accurate. With RDM/NIN using a Justice, Joy there is 6 seconds between attacks. Our longest spell casting @ 4 seconds (refresh), properly time you can get all your spells of between swings.

But it's not. Spell casting, as confirmed by Icemage, PAUSES the auto-attack timer. So it's not that you can cast spells inbetween your 6 seconds of swing time, it's that spell casting *adds* the casting time of the spell to your swing. So if you swing, then cast a 4 second spell, it *adds* 4 seconds to that 6 seconds between swings, making your next hit come 10 seconds after your last attack round. Infact this is one of the biggest detractions to meleeing as a Rdm and Spellcasting as a Drk. Because the more spells they cast, the slower they swing.

As for the RDM-DRK comparison. I have a hollow earring because being a RDM requires an utmost respect to gear. It is very expensive, and often takes alot of work to aqquire peices. Any RDM who has not spent an equal amount if not more on his/her melee set vs casting setup has no business even thinking about melee.
I have spent nearly 1.5mil on my gear so far and I am still missing a few key peices SH + PCC come to mind.

As for the ACC comparison to dark admitedly I do not know much outside of what I see in parties. Id say 90% of the time they do no cast spells (on my server at least) When they dont sub SAM they are wiff machines. Missing an attack on them really hurts 16 seconds of no damage (in the above examples weapon choice.) Not tryig to over glorify RDM melee but a consistent 80% ACC over 6 second intervals (less if not dual weild) is more effective than a slightly more accurate drk who misses once and is doing no damage for 16 seconds.(prolly why DRKs dont get parties me thinks)

The point of their comments was that you were comparing a 'well equiped' Rdm with a poorly equiped Drk. And their numbers show just on base stats alone you as a Rdm have to overcome a 45 point accuracy difference when compared to a Drk. Your gear only offers you 31, so even *with* all your gear you still don't have the same accuracy as a Scythe wielding Drk so there's no way you could have so much higher Acc then them. If an endgame Drk, or any melee for that matter, is getting a less then 90% acc rate on EXP mobs then they're doing something wrong.

Add to that the fact a Drk can get far more Acc then you can from gear, while getting higher Damage per swing due to higher weapon Dmg, more Str, more Att, Abs spells and JAs that increase all of those things, and your numbers are fairly biased. And that's the point that was brought up.

And of course this is totally ignoring WS and haste gear.

[Celeal]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

But it's not. Spell casting, as confirmed by Icemage, PAUSES the auto-attack timer. So it's not that you can cast spells inbetween your 6 seconds of swing time, it's that spell casting *adds* the casting time of the spell to your swing. So if you swing, then cast a 4 second spell, it *adds* 4 seconds to that 6 seconds between swings, making your next hit come 10 seconds after your last attack round. Infact this is one of the biggest detractions to meleeing as a Rdm and Spellcasting as a Drk. Because the more spells they cast, the slower they swing.

For casting timer add to swing timer, what Icemage and Ziero has stated is correct. My experience as PLD and NIN tank also can confirm with that too, which those 2 jobs basically cast magic and melee most of time in general.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

But it's not. Spell casting, as confirmed by Icemage, PAUSES the auto-attack timer. So it's not that you can cast spells inbetween your 6 seconds of swing time, it's that spell casting *adds* the casting time of the spell to your swing. So if you swing, then cast a 4 second spell, it *adds* 4 seconds to that 6 seconds between swings, making your next hit come 10 seconds after your last attack round. Infact this is one of the biggest detractions to meleeing as a Rdm and Spellcasting as a Drk. Because the more spells they cast, the slower they swing.

Spell casting does in no way pause, stop, skip the attack timer. If you cast a 3 second spell between the 6 second window, you will still swing at the 6 second interval. If you cast a 4 second spell and a 3 second spell you are at 7 seconds, and will attack at the 8th second of the interval.

Squeezing in spells is the only effective way to ensure that your melee ability and casting ability work hand in hand.

MACC in a melee guide yes, you are still responsible for maintaing enfeebles on the mob. Macroing in gear which raises acc without switching your weapon is an effective means for keeping your sword equipped. (Warlock Tabard, Enfeebling Torque, Wise Gear INT/MND accesories and gear.) The more MACC you stack on
the greater chance you have of sticking a full effect enfeebe without the aid of staves. Since Equip chains are instant and dont effect your TP (unless you swap weapon) and can be set to switch between attack cycles as well. Here is a Macro I use for a basic cast of Paralyze and Slow

Macro 1
/equip body "Warlock's Tabard"
/equip neck "Enfeebling Torque"
/equip ring1 "Hale Ring"
/equip ring2 "Aquamarine Ring"
/equip ear2 " Geist earring"
/equip legs "Warlock Tights"

Macro 2

/ma "Paralyze II" <t>

Macro 3

/ma "Slow II" <t>

Macro 4

/equip body "Narashima's Vest"
/equip neck "Wivre Gorget"
/equip ring1 "Woodsman's Ring"
/equip ring2 "Woodsman's Ring"
/equip ear2 "Accurate Earring"
/equip legs "Wise Baraconi"

That gives me +22 enfeebling skill +14 MND for the casting of slow and para, not as much mind as I would have on the backline But respectable non the less.

[LadyKiKi]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

/equip body "Narashima's Vest"

Don't you mean Scorpion Harness? Otherwise it's an odd change from what you had before.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

No i dont have a SH I need it along with, PCC, I had borrowed those in the past but thought is was obligatory i gave my current gear.

Also casting spells does not pause the delay, only using spells that go over the delay will cause a pause. Like I said in a 6 second delay you can cast refresh (the longest cast spell we have next to Stoneskin or nukes) @4 seconds. If you start casting during the animationof swinging you can fit it in with no dealy interuption. (also does not affect DA proc by joy).