RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

yes i put filters on everything but my attacks and spells. Dont need to be flooded with me getting hit, and since I am in K tunnel I dont need to pick up crap from anyone else. 1 person has already complained about the clutter of the log. I refuse to use 3rd party software that is not licensed and recognized by FFXI online as usable. That Includes widower time stamp TP crap etc.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

yes i put filters on everything but my attacks and spells. Dont need to be flooded with me getting hit, and since I am in K tunnel I dont need to pick up crap from anyone else. 1 person has already complained about the clutter of the log. I refuse to use 3rd party software that is not licensed and recognized by FFXI online as usable. That Includes widower time stamp TP crap etc.

That's as may be, but it doesn't help the strength of your (lol) "proof".

Your whole argument is based around the chatlog. My point is that the chat log is ridiculously unreliable (as is the animation on-screen).

Would you like to explain how I managed to cancel Stoneskin before the log even showed that I had the effect? Not just by a fraction of a second either... two seconds in advance. By your definition of time, I must be able to time travel, like Callisto.


Icemage

[Mhurron]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

I refuse to use 3rd party software that is not licensed and recognized by FFXI online as usable. That Includes widower time stamp TP crap etc.

I have no problem with this position however it makes it impossible for you to prove a point, or see that you are wrong, which you are. Eyeballing always shows you what you want to see, especially when the timeframes you're talking about are really too small to be reliably perceived.

[Mhurron]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

By your definition of time, I must be able to time travel, like Callisto.

By all evidence you are quite good. Now Callisto, that was just hax.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

You know what this reminds me of? When Icemage and Apple Pie used to argue.

No no no, I'm not comparing Mag to my own personal hero, I'm just stating that even against Apple Pie, Icemage was never wrong.

Never.

Ok maybe like once.

But I'm sure that if Icemage could go toe-to-toe with the man who single-handidly gave us the (NA Translation) equation to Stoneskin and Enspells, then Mag should just stop.

Honestly.

[Feenicks]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

He's just a misguided troll who refuses to believe that he's wrong about anything. Just ignore him. Any post I see by him I don't give any credence at all.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

I'm trying to get to Oracle status, so I'm just using it as an easy catalyst.

[MrMageo]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Ice mage your offering up the same "proof" against me, whats your point, if we are going to be posting chat log photos like you started when you dropped your non existent ownage bomb. I dont have any way to prove it to you, you dont have any way to prove I am wrong. You continually say that the chat logs #s dont mean anything. Isnt it odd however that the spell castings and such, in both our logs take the same amount of time. Isn't It irionic how you argue your 14-16's when I can back it up with the exact same photo's from me doing. (My 14's is a little bit more acurate seeing as it fell right between 14's) Im not debating you on the fact that casting a spell in the timer will cause delay. All I am saying is if you time it right you can squeeze certain spells In.



Here ya go a nice little list and some equations, you can play around with for each time you cast pre-atk (like I claim) On the-Atk (another claim i have to squeeze spells in) and after the attack (the common knowledge delay extender). Way back when, if you guys would have read my post instead of looking for "potential flaws"
you would have noticed I said If timed right you can fit in certain spells without comprimising delay. However It was over looked so several of the local residences can try and cheap shot another one of tidbits of knowledge.

Anyhow Play around with this for a while get good at it and come back to me with what you think then. In every thing I saw you post to discredit me your chat logs (which shows the exact same time differences then mine) was as factual against me as I was in trying to prove it.

Spell Timer List vs My theroy of pre atk casting


Thanks to help from Ice Mage I dont have to test the other half of this to draw logical assumptions

Ice mage drew the conclusion that when he casted on his attack while casting stoneskin his weapon would be delayed to 15 seconds 15s-8s (delay) = 7

it just so happens stoneskin is a 7 second cast, or first know fact is when casting on an attack the delay is held by the full spell cast time.

Ice mage also provided proff that casting ater an attack pushed his delay to 16 (I have also confirmed this)

so we can now draw to the logical assumption that 16s-8s (delay) = 8
When casting after a sword swing in inadvertantly gain 1 delay.

I have provided on 2 seperate cases where casting just prior to the attack either dosent affect your delay or extends it by a lesser amount.

From my photos we can logically conclude casting just prior to the spell cast will reduce your over all delay by 1.

More on this Later.


Here is a list of the more common spells a RDM will use in a fight solo/melee (in party)


Dia 1 second cast

Pre atk cast : 0 second diferential
On atk Cast : 1 second diferential
Post Atk Cast: 2 second differential

Stone Skin 7 second cast

pre atk cast : 6 second differential
on atk cast : 7 second differential
post atk cast: 8 second differential

Slow 2 second cast

pre atk cast : 1 second differential
on atk cast : 2 second differential
post atk cast: 3 second differential

Paralyze 3 second cast

pre atk cast : 2 second differential
on atk cast : 3 second differential
post atk cast: 4 second differential

Blind 2 second cast

pre atk cast : 1 Second differential
on atk cast : 2 second differential
post atk cast: 3 second differential

silence 3 second cast

pre atk cast : 2 second differential
on atk cast : 3 second differential
post atk cast: 4 second differential

Dia II 1.5 second cast

pre atk cast : .5 second differential
on atk cast : 1.5 second differential
post atk cast: 2.5 second differential

Cure III 2.5 second cast

pre atk cast : 1.5 second differential
on atk cast : 2.5 second differential
post atk cast: 3.5 second differential

Cure IV 2.5 second cast

pre atk cast : 1.5 second differential
on atk cast : 2.5 second differential
post atk cast: 3.5 second differential

Haste 3 second cast

pre atk cast : 2 second differential
on atk cast : 3 second differential
post atk cast: 4 second differential

Refresh 5 second cast

pre atk cast : 4 second differential
on atk cast : 5 second differential
post atk cast: 6 second differential

Sleep II 3 second cast

pre atk cast : 2 second differential
on atk cast : 3 second differential
post atk cast: 4 second differential




Ok so now for some equations Into how this above differential counts to your delay

Pre Atk Cast.

Because you are acctually casting ahead of your sword swing you gain 1 second over your weapon.

-X,-X,0,x,x
0 , 1,2,3,4

The top row represnts time casting counting up from -X where x equals the total cast time. Lets use refresh + blind as an exapmle

The bottom row represents Your Atk delay

Ok lets look @ refresh

-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,4,5
0, 1, 2, 3, 4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Refresh runs over your delay by 2 seconds resaulting in a pause for 2 seconds

lets check something with a lower cast lets go with blind

-2,-1,0,1,2
0, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8

Here you can see that blind will fit within the 8 second delay.

Since I discussed this with a 6 second delay in mind simply use this equation

-X,-X,-X,0,X,X,X
0, 1, 2,3,4,5,6

where the X represents the cast time

spells in this list that work

-Dia
-Blind
-Dia 2
-Slow
-Para
-Sleep2
-Haste
-Cure 3
-Cure 4

Now lets look at Castin at the Same time as you attack

For this the equation

-X,-X,0,X,X
1, 2,3,4,5

Is used as you can see your Delay and Casting times start at the same time and run together.

we will use the same spells as topic one and I will lower the Delay to 6

Refresh

-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,4,5
1, 2, 3, 4, 5,6,7,8,9,10,11

Here you see Refresh will delay your attack by 5 seconds.

Blind

-2,-1,0,1,2
1, 2,3,4,5,6

Blind will still fit in to this

These spells are known to work

-Dia
-Dia 2
-Cure 3
-Cure 4
-Sleep 2
-Haste
-Silence
-Paralyze
-Slow

Now for when you cast after the attack animation

this equation will be used

0,-X,-X,X,X
1, 2, 3,4,5

Using refresh again

0,-5,-4,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2, 3, 4, 5
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,7,8,9,10,11,12

Refresh Now Adds 6 seconds to the delay

Blind

0,-2,-1,0,1,2
1, 2, 3,4,5,6

Here you see blind just fits in


other spells that work.

-Dia
-Dia2
-Slow


The Top Most strategy is dificult to do, contrary to popular beleif in this thread I have found if you watch your charecters attack patterns you can pick up on the timing. Now I understand that acheiving the #1 way of doing (attack before you swing) Is probably not possible, In some instances it is very possible, Dia,Dia2,Cure3,Cure4,Blind require very little maitnence. They key is to get your attack timer timed. Once you have a feel for when you are going to atack you can pop the cast just before you swing.

Alternativley you can cast as you swing, this requires the same techniques as aabove but you will notice that most times your attack action wont show but the damage will. This is an efficient way to cast spells and with the certain delay you find yourself able to cast spells without throwing off your attacks.

Lastly you can opt to cast after you attack this requires not real attention just to know what spell your casting.

All in all you only save 1-2 seconds through meticulous effort, some think its not worth it and over look it. Myself I look at it like this. If I am able to save 2 seconds of a regular cast for 3 spells a fight thats an additional 6 seconds or with the delay I posted with this 1 more attack.


*Attacking before Casting*

Go to a kinda croweded area to simulate possible lag I chose to do this In Korroloka Tunnel around a few parties and a bunch of mobs to kinda "Bog" down my system. (More often than not you will be partying in uncrowded areas so lag wont be an issue) Engage a mob and watch your charecter. They bob kinda in and out when facing the mob. Just count the bobs between sword swings. Once you have a feel for it, try casting the spell usually about 1/2 second - 1 second prior to your guys attack. It may sound lame but I do the ol 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 etc. The ands represent a half second. Just tinker around casting there and you will eventually find the successful time.

Once you have the rythym and a ballpark casting time down, head out to a non lagy area. Eastern Altepa Desert is good not many people out in the middle of the dunes there. Just set up and do the same thing you may notice the timing may be a bit different just work it back in. Once you get practice in laggy and non laggy area's you can quickly adapt it to a party situation as the differential is on +/- a second or so.


On that note I am pretty much done debating wether this works or not, I have found it does provided a list of spells I have fit in in the past. I have also provided equations so you can check your own +/- dealy. Ice Mage posted some really good proof it works, His +/- lag is backed by my +/- lag and show the exact same resaults, depending on the cast you get a 1-2 second window. Wether it is under or over the delay timer has no bearing. Its still 1-2 seconds that you can gain or lose, either way its your choice, Ive provided the tools, its up to you if you want to use them or not.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Okay, and with that last piece of "wisdom" I think this topic has long since played itself out.

TOPIC CLOSED before MrMageo lands himself on any more ignore lists.


Icemage
FFXIOnline Forum Super Moderator

[Lunaricia]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

I found this guide useful in that it confirmed many of the things I already knew about the meleeing rdm. I play RDM/DRK or RDM/NIN for added dmg while partying, but at the same time I perform my other red mage duties such as refreshing, enfeebling, enhancing, and backup curing. I see no reason why someone wouldn't allow a person to play front row rdm as long as they are well equipped. What can it really hurt to have a decent amount of extra damage while getting all the same benefits as a back row red mage? My equipment for lvl 50 rdm/drk is:
Main: Knight's Sword - dmg:32 delay:low200s(doing this from memory)
Sub: Strike Shield - def6 attack+6( Hope to upgrade to Viking Shield soon)
Head:Valkyrie's Mask - def16 mp+10 attack+7
Body: Brigadine - def32(i think) dex+2 vit+2 hp+10
Hands: Combat Caster's Mitts - attack+5 (don't recall def)
Legs: Combat Caster's Slacks def18 eva+5 In home control: Mp+14
Feet: Magna F ledelsens - def5 mp+20 agi+2 int+1
Ear1: killer earring - attack+5 (activates to /drk)
Ear2: beetle earring+1 - attack+3 eva-2
ring1: assailant's ring - attack+5 (macro in Fencer's Ring Enspell dmg+5)
ring2: assailant's ring - attack+5
belt: Life Belt - accuracy+10
ammo: morion tathlum mp+3 int+1
ranged:N/A
It all comes out to a grand total of att+36 acc+10 dex+2 which I also combo with sole sushi for extra acc and att. I'd say that's not bad buffs considering RDM can't wear a lot of damage equipment. Couple that with my elvaan's naturally high str, last resort, enspells, and DoT spells, I have become a formidable attack mage and have gained the respect of much higher level player's who thought that I was a joke when I first joined the party. Really, the only trick is you have to be a good player and you can't skip your mage duties just bc your playing front row. If your an average or less player and you try this then all you will get is a party kick but if you know what your doing you can quickly become the most valuable member of your party.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

TOPIC CLOSED

Don't you believe it!

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

*head asplodes*

[Phanex]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

TOPIC CLOSED before MrMageo lands himself on any more ignore lists.


Icemage
FFXIOnline Forum Super Moderator

Meh I haven't seen anything from him lately, mayhaps he's found new and more exciting forums to convert to his guides.

[Callisto]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

I had almost forgotten how much reading MrMageo posts made me want to put my head through my monitor.

[BurningPanther]

Re: RDM Melee Guide Post 03/08 Update

Meh I haven't seen anything from him lately, mayhaps he's found new and more exciting forums to convert to his guides.

Or maybe another minor update note to blow out of proportion.

Shouldn't "TOPIC CLOSED" have equaled "THREAD LOCKED?"