RDM Rambles

[The Mauva Syndicate]

I've read a - ahem - number of threads on here where there are a lot of complaints about "RDM Melee" - um, maybe it doesn't show until higher levels, but the only people in my static who melee better than me are WAR's, my DoT is higher than our THF, MNK and forget the squishies (our BLM is lowest of the group). Spark Bilbo/ Battery + Enthunder is nicely potent, TYVM. Yeah the WHM's Cure's are more potent than mine, so what, 60 vs 63? it's not like 3 hp won't keep you alive, sure it will, but it's not that big a deal, when you stay yellow or better. I can go/WHM or /BLM if I want to be better at one or the other. Now none of us have advanced jobs, so we don't have SAM's or DRK's or PLD's or BLU's and the situation apparently gets more dramatic at higher levels, but I'm not seeing what the issue is.

I've only played the 6 Main Jobs so far, and RDM is my highest, but, um RDM is, and again this is IMHO, the best job in the game. I'm looking forward to SMN, and now I'm really looking forward to SCH (Stratagems must take pressure off of several jobs, and wont occupy the SCH for very long if used thoughtfully) as well - SCH/RDM has possibilities, SCH/BLM too. And I still think they will be rare (at least on Remora) And that brings up another point I'm curious about...

A general lack of Support Job players - Why? Are there that many "Crush Kill Destroy" folks or is it that they are easier? I've played Tank and DD, and while there is less to do, in terms of pushing buttons and being aware of everyones status, there is a good of amount of attention involved in hate management and effective Skillchaining. More glamorous? DRK gets the prettiest armor IMHO, (meh, I like the badboy look) More sought-after? I'm a night person, so I play from NA hours well into JP hours and I notice there are a lot more mages during the JP hours. During most of the NA hours, pffft rare... ??? And BRD? I see them - almost always /anon - practically hiding while they are waiting for their LS to gather or what have you. Must be what it's like to be a supermodel...

I do have to mention that the folks in our group have played many games together, including paper and dice games, With three couples and three singles we are actually too many to form a single party, but we rarely can all play together, but when we do (saturday nights) we usually go with two smaller parties, but we rotate a lot so we know each other well, and that level of team cohesion may be opening up new possibilities for us that a scratch pick-up party just won't see, but I don't even hear folks from big tight LS's talking about interesting or innovative strategies. AV generated some interest, but that apparently went away quickly and people went back to Campaign or Dynamis or whatever other endgame activity holds their interest.

So RDM got nothing in the update. Good, RDM already has so many abilities, spells, uses and skills I can barely keep up, and I'm not even that high level! RDM kicks ass.

[Tomato_Kai]

Re: RDM Rambles

If you don't see the difference yet, you will see it soon. MNK should (read: should. Some Mnk don't gear/eat properly, but that's another matter) be outdamaging you at *any* level, and War also (unless they're using daggers...?). Either way though RDM isn't a class "designed" to Melee as a priority in group dynamics. I'm not saying it can't (or even that it shouldn't) be done, just that it's not something the game is specifically geared towards doing specifically.

Your level is lower. At lower levels, it's all gonna come out in the wash in terms of melee. It's not entirely uncommon to see spare BLMs or WHMs meleeing in those circumstances, either. Honestly though, this small portion of the game is not a good crosssection of your class. You don't have the vast majority of your spells or abilities yet, and won't for a little while. I'd wait til you get to that point to give a definitive decision on the abilities of various jobs and their party interactions.

So RDM got nothing in the update. Good, RDM already has so many abilities, spells, uses and skills I can barely keep up, and I'm not even that high level! RDM kicks ass.

This, however, is absolutely correct. More people should agree with it.

[Murphie]

Re: RDM Rambles

I've read a - ahem - number of threads on here where there are a lot of complaints about "RDM Melee" - um, maybe it doesn't show until higher levels, but the only people in my static who melee better than me are WAR's, my DoT is higher than our THF, MNK and forget the squishies (our BLM is lowest of the group). Spark Bilbo/ Battery + Enthunder is nicely potent, TYVM. Yeah the WHM's Cure's are more potent than mine, so what, 60 vs 63? it's not like 3 hp won't keep you alive, sure it will, but it's not that big a deal, when you stay yellow or better. I can go/WHM or /BLM if I want to be better at one or the other. Now none of us have advanced jobs, so we don't have SAM's or DRK's or PLD's or BLU's and the situation apparently gets more dramatic at higher levels, but I'm not seeing what the issue is.

What works well in the lower levels doesn't necessarily work well in the higher levels, and vice versa.

A general lack of Support Job players - Why? Are there that many "Crush Kill Destroy" folks or is it that they are easier?

Yes and yes, sorta.

So RDM got nothing in the update. Good, RDM already has so many abilities, spells, uses and skills I can barely keep up, and I'm not even that high level! RDM kicks ass.

I can agree with this.

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM Rambles

Tomato Kai said it pretty well.

I'd expect you to be able to melee up to say.... Lvl 30ish, up to say when you're done with Kazham areas. Once you hit Altepa/Garliage/Crawler's Nest, it's a whole other game that tends to hit DD players hard even with eating sushi in the olde days before the two handed buff. Might be different now for them though.

You also start to fight more monsters that buff themselves, and so as a Rdm you will be busy debuffing, enfeebling, I'd probably expect some nuking and backup healing too, so your time is really better spent resting when you have a spare moment.


The problem at higher levels is that most parties aim to kill a mob in say, 45 seconds or less for the TP burns. There is little time for resting, and a good Rdm should be able to manage their MP so that they don't run out inbetween Converts. Obviously with some form of help such as a Brd or Cor or backup healer. 99% of the time the melee will be coming either /sam or /nin for Seigan+TE or for Utsusemi. If they are either a Samurai or Ninja then they sub something else. This is to help reduce the amount of healing and actually make having a one healer party feasable.

The problem with Rdm meleeing in this enviroment is they miss what rare moments that they are given to rest. If you are meleeing you are not using your staffs to enhance your spells. You are forced to eat melee food in order to hit and wear melee gear in order to hit and hit well, forcing you to drop out on the mage food and gear that might have helped your performance.

In certain situations Rdm can melee just fine, normally smaller parties, BCNMs, Assaults, and in general most level capped areas. However for exp parties where everyone is concerned with getting the most exp in the shortest amount of time possible, it only hinders you.

I'd expect a static party to be able to work around it if they wanted to though. Alot of different strategies open up with people who you get to know well and play with alot.

[Pteryx]

Re: RDM Rambles

I've read a - ahem - number of threads on here where there are a lot of complaints about "RDM Melee" - um, maybe it doesn't show until higher levels, but the only people in my static who melee better than me are WAR's, my DoT is higher than our THF, MNK and forget the squishies (our BLM is lowest of the group). Spark Bilbo/ Battery + Enthunder is nicely potent, TYVM. Yeah the WHM's Cure's are more potent than mine, so what, 60 vs 63? it's not like 3 hp won't keep you alive, sure it will, but it's not that big a deal, when you stay yellow or better. I can go/WHM or /BLM if I want to be better at one or the other. Now none of us have advanced jobs, so we don't have SAM's or DRK's or PLD's or BLU's and the situation apparently gets more dramatic at higher levels, but I'm not seeing what the issue is.

The issue does not occur at Dunes levels, where you apparently are. RDM melee doesn't start falling behind in effectiveness until level 25 to 30. Meanwhile, RDM healing ability catches up to WHM's quickly. Then Refresh comes along at 41, making RDM too busy to get a sword swing in edgewise -- and the game's high-level accuracy issues begin to slowly creep in as well. Then elemental staves come along at 51 to alleviate those accuracy issues somewhat -- and to ensure that you'll never swing a sword on anyone else's time again. And by then, your melee is rather wanting anyway, even for private purposes.

Backline RDM's effectiveness isn't a bad thing, mind you -- but for a job to get a series of spells for meleeing with only to be an ineffective swordsman by the time they get them all, and then be forced to abandon that side of their nature completely in order to keep being remotely useful magically, is a decided bait and switch.

A general lack of Support Job players - Why? Are there that many "Crush Kill Destroy" folks or is it that they are easier? I've played Tank and DD, and while there is less to do, in terms of pushing buttons and being aware of everyones status, there is a good of amount of attention involved in hate management and effective Skillchaining. More glamorous? DRK gets the prettiest armor IMHO, (meh, I like the badboy look) More sought-after? I'm a night person, so I play from NA hours well into JP hours and I notice there are a lot more mages during the JP hours. During most of the NA hours, pffft rare... ??? And BRD? I see them - almost always /anon - practically hiding while they are waiting for their LS to gather or what have you. Must be what it's like to be a supermodel...

There's a number of reasons why many people want to be melees to the exclusion of all else. Some of it is the relative ease; many people get into video games specifically for easy wins to boost their egos with, to make up for feeling like losers in real life. Heck, I used to play Starcraft, and by far the most common format of game was having three human players gang up on an AI player just to get that visceral "win" feeling. It wasn't even a challenge. Neither, for that matter, is the DD's role in a meleeburn.

Some of it is cultural. It's not the "support jobs" that are the heroes of stories; they're the love interests, or the guys who stay at headquarters or in the cool ship's engine room, or the comic relief. The warriors are the heroes. It doesn't matter to some that the effects of the support jobs' abilities are necessary to maximize their potential as badasses; heck, many feel outright entitled to them, seeing these "non-hero" character types as their servants and themselves as the only real heroes.

Some of it is simple rage. Healing and buffing isn't much of an outlet for rage. Knocking a quarter off of some mob's life bar is. 'Nuff said.

So RDM got nothing in the update. Good, RDM already has so many abilities, spells, uses and skills I can barely keep up, and I'm not even that high level! RDM kicks ass.

My sentiment is different: So RDM got nothing this update? Good -- I wouldn't want them to rush it. RDM's balance could easily be upset if they were too hasty about buffing RDM's melee usefulness in mid-to-late levels. The obvious solution of raw strength is probably not the best choice for balance purposes or the most Red Mage-ish choice. I want a more indirect, carefully considered solution, one that merely allows us to melee without neglecting our duties, one that doesn't just turn us into yet another DDer. That's going to take time to conceive of and test. If they'd given RDM melee an update now, it would probably have been something rash and hasty. -- Pteryx

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: RDM Rambles

I've read a - ahem - number of threads on here where there are a lot of complaints about "RDM Melee" - um, maybe it doesn't show until higher levels, but the only people in my static who melee better than me are WAR's, my DoT is higher than our THF, MNK and forget the squishies (our BLM is lowest of the group). Spark Bilbo/ Battery + Enthunder is nicely potent, TYVM.

What level is the THF? THF15+ should be able to dish out very hard hitting SA WS, either SA+Fast Blade or SA+Combo. At Lv.30, it'd be SATA WS, followed by Viper Bite at Lv.33 (or is that 34? It's been ages since I was there. lol). IIRC, my parses at lower levels showed well played THF15+ to be one of the top damage dealers at Valkrum Dunes, Qufim Island, and the Y. Jungles ranges. (DRG and RNG were also consistently strong.)

DoT is not damage per swing, by the way; it's cumulative damage over time. I would be surprised if a well set up MNK can't easily out DoT your RDM by Lv.30.

I do have to mention that the folks in our group have played many games together, including paper and dice games, With three couples and three singles we are actually too many to form a single party, but we rarely can all play together, but when we do (saturday nights) we usually go with two smaller parties, but we rotate a lot so we know each other well, and that level of team cohesion may be opening up new possibilities for us that a scratch pick-up party just won't see,

Heh. Sounds like a very nice LS.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Rambles

I've read a - ahem - number of threads on here where there are a lot of complaints about "RDM Melee" - um, maybe it doesn't show until higher levels, but the only people in my static who melee better than me are WAR's, my DoT is higher than our THF, MNK and forget the squishies (our BLM is lowest of the group). Spark Bilbo/ Battery + Enthunder is nicely potent, TYVM. Yeah the WHM's Cure's are more potent than mine, so what, 60 vs 63? it's not like 3 hp won't keep you alive, sure it will, but it's not that big a deal, when you stay yellow or better. I can go/WHM or /BLM if I want to be better at one or the other. Now none of us have advanced jobs, so we don't have SAM's or DRK's or PLD's or BLU's and the situation apparently gets more dramatic at higher levels, but I'm not seeing what the issue is.

What level is your Red Mage? Spark Bilbo is a level 13 weapon.

For what it's worth, Red Mages do quite decent damage in melee (assuming appropriate weaponry) all the way through about level 32 or so (due in large part to the presence of Centurion Sword at level 30). It really falls off quickly after that, as the gap in melee skill gets to be higher with each successive level, compared to main job melees. By the time you get to Convert at level 40, your melee accuracy will be pretty dismal without lots of gear plus sushi, and you have access to less and less of the decent swords and daggers from that point on. Refresh at 41 puts another crimp in your combat time, and then the final straw is elemental staves at 51, which give you a strong reason to put the pointy weapons away completely in a party situation.

And that brings up another point I'm curious about...

A general lack of Support Job players - Why? Are there that many "Crush Kill Destroy" folks or is it that they are easier? I've played Tank and DD, and while there is less to do, in terms of pushing buttons and being aware of everyones status, there is a good of amount of attention involved in hate management and effective Skillchaining. More glamorous? DRK gets the prettiest armor IMHO, (meh, I like the badboy look) More sought-after? I'm a night person, so I play from NA hours well into JP hours and I notice there are a lot more mages during the JP hours. During most of the NA hours, pffft rare... ??? And BRD? I see them - almost always /anon - practically hiding while they are waiting for their LS to gather or what have you. Must be what it's like to be a supermodel...

It's a sad fact that few players want to play support roles. Something to do with youthful exuberance and testosterone-fuelled egos. :p

I do have to mention that the folks in our group have played many games together, including paper and dice games, With three couples and three singles we are actually too many to form a single party, but we rarely can all play together, but when we do (saturday nights) we usually go with two smaller parties, but we rotate a lot so we know each other well, and that level of team cohesion may be opening up new possibilities for us that a scratch pick-up party just won't see, but I don't even hear folks from big tight LS's talking about interesting or innovative strategies. AV generated some interest, but that apparently went away quickly and people went back to Campaign or Dynamis or whatever other endgame activity holds their interest.

What you won't see looking in "from the outside" is what really goes on internally inside the best end game linkshells. I suspect many of the best LS are like the one I'm in. We keep to ourselves, don't say much to anyone, and do all of our discussion inside our linkshell or inside our own private LS forum (only LS members can access this).

We do a lot of discussion internally about alternate strategies or ways to accomplish various tasks, from defeating Dynamis Lord and Absolute Virtue, to the best ways to optimize a merit party, to viable configurtions to use in Salvage and Limbus. Moreover, we'll actually try out new strategies once we hash out the details. I don't know that every good end game LS is like we are, but I suspect we're not an isolated case.

So RDM got nothing in the update. Good, RDM already has so many abilities, spells, uses and skills I can barely keep up, and I'm not even that high level! RDM kicks ass.

You'll find that RDM is the only job in the game that gets progressively busier with each successive level; as your HP/MP pool grows, you have increasing amounts of MP available to you with each new level.


Icemage

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: RDM Rambles

Right now I've got RDM 18: WHM 14: BLM 14: WAR 10: THF 9: MNK 9 We are running out of Mhaura right now still doing subjob quests for everyone in the group - Bloody robes not being a common drop.

Spark Bilbo is a lvl 13 sword, yeah, but I still get pretty good damage. I only use it when I can get batteries tho cause without the enthunder/spark stack its not as good as enthunder on the Brass Xiphos +1 which is my other sword - I'm wanting a flame sword, of course by the time I get to where I can get one, I'll want a Centurion Sword no doubt.

And yeah - I'm already pretty busy. I mostly just use the attack command so I can increase my parry proc and just get the occasional hit for TP - Even watching my timers pretty closely and throwing the correct (and correctly timed) spells when we fight VT's or IT's my RDM still manages to get in a hit now and again - is there a "middle row"? I tend to stand between the close up folks and the back row folks tend to stand about 8 feet farther away (1.5 body lengths in either direction) essentially at the very limit of sword range.

Our THF was never seriously into THF - always behind a bit in gear - has gone back to WAR now - I might level it at some point for the SATA WS myself - and the additional hate management sounds like it could be useful.

Oh and were gonna get a LS going when we get to Jeuno, hopefully we can get one (I understand they are not always available).

*edit* to add sword info
*re-edited* to add DING 19

[Vyuru]

Re: RDM Rambles

Oh and were gonna get a LS going when we get to Jeuno, hopefully we can get one

If you're running out of the Windurst area, go to Port Windurst. Down by the docks where the 3 boats sell magic and armor there are two mithra that will sell you Linkpearls for 8k I think it is.

I think the ghosts in Gusgen Mines have a high bloody robe drop rate. I know the skeletons there, in the Shrakami Maze, and the Outter Horutoto Ruins all seem to have a very good Magic Skull drop rate. Might be the Inner Houtoto Ruins, I can't recall now.

I will stress however that these areas and mobs may be dangerous for your level to attempt. It's been a long time since I last checked those areas in the lvl 18ish range.

And Parry is just a pain to level, so good luck with that Once you hit lvl 70 you might be able to take on some Chigoe solo, which make damn fine parry/evasion skillup mobs. There are some Chigoe in Rolanberry Fields [S], but I don't know what level they are.

[Ziero]

Re: RDM Rambles

Actually, the Bloody Robe is a VERY common drop, at least 50% iirc. I know I would get one almost every time I killed a Bogy. The only problem is that Bogys are a *pain* to kill at 18. But if you have enough people it shouldn't be too hard.

And at low lvls, Thf isn't really all that impressive. Yea SA is a great attack, but their normal melee, no matter what weapon they use, is pretty lack luster. It's not until 30ish when you get better gear, better weapons and better weapon skills, that Thf starts to stand out.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: RDM Rambles

I had capped sword on PLD (from leveling RDM) all the way till 70.

I haven't seen a sword skillup in about two years. It was so weird..

[Armando]

Re: RDM Rambles

The only problem is that Bogys are a *pain* to kill at 18. But if you have enough people it shouldn't be too hard.

For the record, no amount of Level 18s will kill a Bogy. At the very least someone 25+ and a healer would be needed. To a Lv.18 it's a VT-IT WAR mob that can cast all BLM spells up to its level including -aga spells, with 75% resistances to slashing and piercing, 50% resistances to blunt, a Curse TP move way before anyone has Cursna and an AoE Drain TP move. And those are the Buburimu ones. Anywhere else, you'd be overhunting.

[Icemage]

Re: RDM Rambles

For the record, no amount of Level 18s will kill a Bogy. At the very least someone 25+ and a healer would be needed. To a Lv.18 it's a VT-IT WAR mob that can cast all BLM spells up to its level including -aga spells, with 75% resistances to slashing and piercing, 50% resistances to blunt, a Curse TP move way before anyone has Cursna and an AoE Drain TP move. And those are the Buburimu ones. Anywhere else, you'd be overhunting.

This is true.

However, I've done the subjob quest twice now in the past month for friends, and both times I opted to do the Mhaura quest. With a level 75 character that can move quickly, it's much easier to complete the quest than Selbina's, where you're at the mercy of the abominable drop rate on Magicked Skulls.

Bogy drop rate on bloody robes are, from personal experience, about 30%-40% without any Treasure Hunter traits. As long as you can kill them fast and move across the zone quickly, you can kill at least 6 Bogys in the 20 minute timespan that they're in play for game night; this is very nearly a guaranteed drop in that circumstance. By comparison, it's taken me hours to get a Magicked Skull at times, from the ghouls in Gusgen Mines.


Icemage

[The Mauva Syndicate]

Re: RDM Rambles

We've only got two people below 20 now - most of the WAR's are 23/24 and the BLM's are 24

I'll ding 20 this weekend