Update March 08 Your opinion

[Vapors]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

If you are a rdm and want to melee, than you have no idea how to play rdm. I have been rdm for over 4 years, it was my original job when i started game. you arent going to be able to solo anything super tough using swords. maybe you can solo an IT+ monster with joyeuse and justice over a period of 45 minutes since rdms sword do no dmg and neither does savage blade. i solo zipcana using gravity bind nuke, poison, bio and same with faust. i am also a blu and my sword is 297 and the dmg difference is very noticable. i think most rdms are just retarded. go level blu, instead of trying to make rdm a melee job. suck it up and stop being lazy. if you want to melee then why even bother leveling rdm? i think people just try to make jobs something they arent. when i was a lvl 18 noob i remember rdm/war and meleeing in qufim island. but i did learn. you got lvl 75 rdms that melee. i have full sword merits and u know what. rdm sucks at melee, bottom line. better off equipping hq staves and ton of magic attack gear and just nuking.

[Pteryx]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

If you are a rdm and want to melee, than you have no idea how to play rdm.

Since when do desire to to something written on the tin and ignorance that it cannot at present be done necessarily go together? Since when does that desire necessarily mean loathing or sucking at everything else RDM is able to do? I may know better than to run up and stab things with an Enspelled sword, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like the option to be there, or that said desire stops me from healing or Hasting or Refreshing people or debuffing the mob.

Why do you think we have Enspells in the first place? Or B skill in two weapons? Why do you think SE's been thinking about new frontline-oriented spells for us? They weren't thinking "let's make RDM look like it ought to be able to melee and falsely advertise its ability to, but make it actually no good at it", that's for sure.

For the record, RDM's scarcely better at nuking than it is at melee. There is, however, a difference: if RDM were truly good at nuking, what would RDM nuking do that's unique? RDM melee, at least, has the potential to be different from BLU melee or DRK melee or PLD melee. As such, the only thing you'll hear me suggest WRT helping our nuking is Magic Accuracy Bonus traits -- which help more things aside from that, including the plausibility of melee.

And I think MrMageo takes the whole argument to whiny extremes too. I'm only beating the dead horse right now in response to the fallacy quoted above. Of course, that doesn't prevent the rest of your post from being a threadcrap... -- Pteryx

[Ziero]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

Wait, how would you melee differently though? En-spells?

See, I'm not one of those people who will say Rdm should NEVER melee. Infact I'll tell Rdm they should melee when the situation calls for it. But the average high lvl exp pt, which everyone *always* seems to use as the situation no matter what the discussion, is not the time for Rdm melee. Especially if it's a TP burn because that extra Smg that a rdm is doing is just not needed.

But there are still plenty of opportunities for a Rdm to bust out the sword and shield and go to town. Assaults, Campaign, some NM and BC fights, small man exp/farming pts, quests and missions etc etc etc. And in those situations, that lower lvl combat skill and weak dmg weapon could actually be useful. Assuming the Rdm is properly geared to do it the right way at least.

[MrMageo]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

Holy Christ, you people and your melee debate, looks like this has become topic 37987 on it.

Im sick of hearing go level Blue, go level PLD. Well guess what you better learn how to melee or your not going to be partying much anymore. Hint Sublimation screwed you back liners, Hint Haste/Refresh not needed in endgame meripo with 2x BRD, 1xBRD, 1XCOR/BRD, Hint RDM not a bitch coasting job anymore. Welcome to post march update fever, SE has made us a more viable front line job but not in the way most of us predicted. Like the spells that made us sit on the back line for RDM, the abilities given to SCH, and SMN have pushed us to the front line. Guess what sublimation makes Refresh redundant, a ghetto convert every 25 seconds if you wish. Finaly i say, all you people that call us melee mages terible and job killers can now get of your lazy, coast-along asses. Im sure as hell glad i can acctually contribute fair damage to a party unlike the rest of you thinking backline haste/refresh is the only way.

SCH has replaced us as a Backline job, much like they have replaced WHM and BLM. An ungodly abomination of White magic and black magic and a ghetto convert. Seems like SE has made its intentions know, War and Thf get bunk abilities, Retaliation is junk, colabrator is on the same timer as Accomplice, and MNK got nothing. BLM+WHM get new ways to be begged to do things for people, and RDM as usual get nothing but stripmined. Hell we cant even call enspells our anymore, because SCH can cast them with 256 skill just like us, and now SCH is free to /rdm exclusivley, for enspells,gravity,dispell oh low and behold they get a whole compliment of enfeebling magic as well. So the original 6 jobs look like sock puppets now. Just there to bridge the gap to the advanced jobs. What else do RDM's have left to do with a SCH in the group other than melee? Pick daisies?

[Mhurron]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

But there are still plenty of opportunities for a Rdm to bust out the sword and shield

And now you bust it out with a dance move.

[Murphie]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

Jesus Christ. Dramatic much?

[Mhurron]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

What else do RDM's have left to do with a SCH in the group other than melee?

Seems to me it would be doubtful that there would be a RDM and a SCH would be in the same party, that is, if you're right about everything else of course.

[Ziero]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

Actually

Retaliate has been tested as having at least a 30%ish proc rate and allows full TP gain per hit, meaning that a Tanking War can now do MORE Dmg and gain MORE TP in less time to allow them to hold hate better. And when combined with the TP healing abilities of /Dnc it makes them a viable exp pt tank when properly geared for it. Especially seeing as early tests show that Vit, a defensive stat, is a possible factor in the abilities proc rate.

In other words, they boosted War's Dmg tanking potential.

And though Collaborator shares a timer with Accomplice, it does *not* have the same recast. Infact, Collaborator has a 1 minute recast meaning it can be used far more frequently, and in conjunction with SaTa to help thfs get it right. Though it's half the enmity of Accomplice, it's at 1/5 of the timer, which is a great boost.

Mnk does not need anything because they're already working as they should. They hit stuff, they hit stuff fast they hit stuff hard.

ALL Mages get a boost with Sch's new ability...except Rdm. But this ability *still* isn't as good as Refresh, so when it's availible it will still be better to take the spell. But now, there's not as much as a dependence on Rdms to be in *every single party* post 41, which allows Whm to step up some. Sch did get some sick boostage though, but I don't expect that to remain unchanged for long.

In the end though, Rdm...they're exactly where they were before all this happened. They got nothing new...though they don't really need anything...they're still just as good as they were before and will still do the things they did before. Which means there will still be those meleex5+rdm TP burn PTs in which Rdms do nothing but cure and haste.

And just one more thing, the haste 'nerf' only lowered the Haste cap from 90% to 80%. Meaning that even if you do have a Brd in your PT then CASTING HASTE WILL STILL BE USEFUL.

And no one is going to invite Rdms to be melee DDs. Ever.

[MrMageo]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

well i dont agree, with 90% of what you said i feel SE just shoved aside rdm/whm/blm/mnk/war/thf through genuinely useless abilities. How often does warrior tank there big guy. How often does WHM get invited to an endgame party, where is BLM during this whole thing. Thf's use sata post ToA wow you must live on a special wonderful server if ppl take damage there. MNK hell i havent seen a MNK since october. RDM was the only job that had a niche, we could easilysit back and watch the xp roll in. Now that SCH can "Ghetto Convert", Teir 4 MB, Raise 2, Curaga4, Erase, -na, Dispel, all without the use of a Sub job who is going to invite rdm/whm/blm to a party. Hell even SMN/SCH can do it and they get hastega. The only thing rdm will be able to do is teir 3 burst a 6 step self light SC put down by a sam. Oh well im glad im already 75 and can solo my shit sucks to be all you newbie RDM's

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

There is a difference between soloing and meleeing. RDM melee inasmuch as it goes in it's contributions to soloing is a completely different gameplay vein than RDM melee in high-damage TP burns.

You seem to be close-minded, short-sighted and very unfamiliar with the concepts of English language, therefore, I find it hard to dub you with anything more flattering than an extremely high level of ignorance, and I'll just accept that you'll never understand half of all the stuff I've forgotten about this game.

You're a disgrace to Taru RDMs everywhere.

[Ziero]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

well i dont agree, with 90% of what you said i feel SE just shoved aside rdm/whm/blm/mnk/war/thf through genuinely useless abilities. How often does warrior tank there big guy. How often does WHM get invited to an endgame party, where is BLM during this whole thing. Thf's use sata post ToA wow you must live on a special wonderful server if ppl take damage there. MNK hell i havent seen a MNK since october. RDM was the only job that had a niche, we could easilysit back and watch the xp roll in. Now that SCH can "Ghetto Convert", Teir 4 MB, Raise 2, Curaga4, Erase, -na, Dispel, all without the use of a Sub job who is going to invite rdm/whm/blm to a party. Hell even SMN/SCH can do it and they get hastega. The only thing rdm will be able to do is teir 3 burst a 6 step self light SC put down by a sam. Oh well im glad im already 75 and can solo my shit sucks to be all you newbie RDM's

As a War, I tank a lot, usually right after I BEAT THE CRAP out of something and pull hate. Now we have a full time ability that allows us to do even more damage while in a defensive position. They just added a defensive ability that allows Wars to do MORE DAMAGE. I think that's awesome right there.

And if a Thf doesn't use SaTa, then they're not doing their job. Especially seeing as how a suped up thf can potentially get 100tp in 30 seconds allowing them to do SA+WS or TA+WS at least once a fight. Oh and btw, the only problem with Accomplice was it's recast timer. And Collaborator fixed that quite nicely.

And as far as I know, a job that can heal and haste is always welcome to pts. Add in /Sch's 'ghetto convert' and healing bonuses and now they can do their job even more efficiently.

And Blms are soloing 12k+ an hour, far more then a Rdm can for Exp, while burning down all those super HNMs. Just like they always were.

And seriously, you're BURSTING in TP burns? That's certainly a lot more uncommon then having a Mnk in a TP burn. But then again, there must not be much else to do with 2 brds covering all your other duties.

SE added a few nice tricks to War and Thf, left Mnk alone because really nothing is wrong with them, gave Sch some much needed boosts, some of which can actually be used to boost OTHER jobs (like Whm) and didn't do a damn thing to Rdms one way or another.

The only 'bad'(and even that's not that big of a problem) in this update was the boost to Sam because, really, did they need it?

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

What he's taken is a few situations, made them extreme, and use them as a point for an argument.

It's like saying that RDMs shouldn't have nukes because "OMFG dis one tiem dis guy he all leik solod Bune."

For your information, the majority of parties AREN'T TP burns. Hate to burst your bubble. As a PLD @ 70, I've seen None, and as a RDM, I've been in more 6k/hr pts than I care to remember, as opposed to the small majority of TP burns I've been that have been awesome.

The only reason that TP burns seem so popular, is because so many people rant and rave about how uber they are, theyre considered the norm.

For your information, me and many other RDMs who are concerned with constant efficiency, as opposed to "Pt hanging by a thread on yellow/orange HP 70% of the time" exp, we invite WHMs. You're ignorant if you think that WHMs don't have place in merit pts.

Zeiro highlighted that BLMs solo for more an hour than they could in a party, and they only get better as their merits makes them stronger and stronger. Hell, before ToA, I knew a BLM that soloed on Elementals in the sky. Before EXP bands. Before EXP Sanction. Before MAB gear became the "New-School of thought". And he got 6k/hr.

No THF uses SATA at the same time post 60 when they have independent usage of the abilities. The concept of a "First Voke" is archaic as soon as PLDs get all the AF gear. But you're making it seem as if they don't use EITHER SA or TA.

And WTH is wrong with you and your MNK comment? MNKS are among the most consistent DDs in the game. I tanked with two RNGs who would bust out 2k Sidewinders on Dhamels when they did Berserk, and I wouldn't lose hate, but a MNKs constant high damage and constant high WSs made the mob turn away from me more often than I'd care to relate back to.

SCH's getting a "Ghetto Convert" doesn't mean RDM is extinct. If you think it does, then you're not as good as a RDM as you'd like to think you are.

You're under the impression that there are SO MANY BRD and COR out there where a RDM will be LFG for days on end with his thumb in his ass.

You're under the impression that there will be SO MANY SCH that the population won't know what to do with all the mages, and there'll be a big ol cluster fuck of exp going on.

NewsFlash- if someone didn't like being a mage last weekend, they won't want to be a mage this weekend. RDM isn't going anywhere on the desirability list.

[MrMageo]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

I think its awesome how every single possible meripo sceneraio ends up being a TP Burn, clearly you havent acctually experienced RDM melee if all you can spout about is TP burn. I generally hit 50-60(enspell included 25ish enspell with proper gear on and latents active) /BLU or /DRK (usually 60 /DRK) and when i get double from joy that is 100-120 damage per attack round, which is on par with most jobs. With NIN i get 50-50 per swing (50 Joytoy 50 e.sword) and when joytoy double attacks thats 150 damage in one round again on par with other Job's. But you know what i bring to the table a SC and a MB, not many jobs can do that. So if i have a WHM/SCH or SMN/SCH or SCH/XXX main healing my party, you bet your ass im gearing to melee because unlike other melee RDM's i know how to melee, i dont have an enhancing sword fo nothing.

[WishMaster3K]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

I'd like to see a parse of those numbers.

You know that there was a test on BG, of all places, where to silence all the RDM-Melee pundits, a naked MNK went up against a Fully Buffed and fully geared RDM. The MNK even waited for the RDM to cast all his spells before engaging, and disengaged when the RDM had to recast.

I'll fish for the link when I get home.

I'm sure everyone knows the results.

[Vyuru]

Re: Update March 08 Your opinion

First off.

Thank you IceMage, for saying everything that I was too afraid of saying for fear that the Mods might get me

Hint Haste/Refresh not needed in endgame meripo with 2x BRD, 1xBRD, 1XCOR/BRD

Hint, what in the world would make me want a Rdm when I have those?

SCH has replaced us as a Backline job, much like they have replaced WHM and BLM.

No, Sch and /Sch has replaced you as a backline job. Mages can bring their own form of Refresh to the parties now. I have no need for a Rdm now unless I have a Pld tank. Even then, Sanction/Sigil refresh, Auto Refresh, Parade Gorget, and lord knows what else means even a Pld doesn't need a Rdm anymore. Granted, with proper backup but all of my parties have that.

What else do RDM's have left to do with a SCH in the group other than melee? Pick daisies?

Haste, Protects, Shell, Phalanx II since we ARE talking merit parties here, then pick daisies. Assuming you actually fight something other than Colibri then the Rdm gets to focus on enfeebling and stuff.

How often does warrior tank there big guy.

Quite often.

How often does WHM get invited to an endgame party

All the time.

MNK hell i havent seen a MNK since october.

Had two of 'em in my party the other night.

RDM was the only job that had a niche, we could easilysit back and watch the xp roll in.

The crux of it all. Rdm was the only job that completely dominated the exp scene much like the rangers and arrowburns of olde. You *may* have been displaced from your throne, and now you're throwing a hissy fit over it.

I think its awesome how every single possible meripo sceneraio ends up being a TP Burn, clearly you havent acctually experienced RDM melee if all you can spout about is TP burn.

And guess why they are TP burns? Because the mob is so weak in defense, HP, and evasion that they can be killed quickly and easily. If they weren't TP burns you wouldn't have a ghost of a chance at being the *awesome* melee Rdm. Mamool Ja are the closest thing there IS in ToAU to what a normal exp level mob would behave in the RoZ/CoP zones, and you yourself said that you would not be able to handle meleeing them.

Fact: You yourself said that you had to have at least one Madrigal in order to reach an acceptable hit rate, while eating sushi and wearing +acc gear.

Fact: Real melee, especially two handers, have no need for +acc songs. Those songs are WORTHLESS to at least 1/2 of your party, just so that YOU can *melee*

Fact: The party would be better served if instead the bard used a +Haste or +Att song for the melee.

None of the other mage jobs are dependant solely on Rdm anymore, and that as far as I am concerned is a good thing.