Refresh II

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

You know, there is some validity to the low levels in a job yet complaining about the changes at a later level thing. Not that it's not a bit of a trap, but seriously. You do kind of have to experience those levels (on at least a job, if not the job) to really have a feel for how they work.

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh II

You just described the Blue Mage.

Frankly, I take offense at how every suggestion to boost RDM melee is rebuffed with, "That's BLU. Go play BLU." If you don't want RDM to be able to melee in any worthwhile manner, just say so instead of insisting that we're wrong for wanting what SE wants to try to give us. Has it occured to you that some of us might, in fact, actually like the idea of Enspells and don't want to have to solo in order to use them?

Would RDM suddenly be able to cast physical spells if it were modified to make melee more practical? No.
Would STR suddenly be good for its spells instead of INT and MND? No.
Would it suddenly become able to self-skillchain? No.
Would it be able to choose its own job traits? No.
Would the changes I propose lead to RDM meleeing all the time? Not as long as there are ele staves.
Would they even lead to them meleeing frequently? No.

Drop your prejudices and actually look at the words I've typed and read them, and you'll see that I'm not trying to turn RDM into BLU. I don't think it would be good for the game or for either job to turn RDM into BLU. I'd just like RDM melee to be useful for things other than mollasses-speed soloing, meleeing eles, and Enspell daggerburning one or two specific NMs. I'd like meleeing in Campaign Battle to not be regarded as an act of callous selfishness. I'd like to be able to smack things with Aspir Daze on them and contribute something useful in return. I'd like there to be a situation where someone offers me the option to melee, and to have to make a quick decision about whether or not it happens to be worth it at the time.

Backline RDM should survive. But frontline RDM should exist, secondary to backline RDM. Right now, for all practical intents and purposes, it doesn't. -- Pteryx

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

I have yet to see a workable solution that would allow for frontline RDM that doesn't sacrifice backline RDM or make the job far too powerful. If one has been posted, please point me to it, but I assure you, I've read every post in this thread (and others).

[Mhurron]

Re: Refresh II

I have yet to see a workable solution that would allow for frontline RDM that doesn't sacrifice backline RDM or make the job far too powerful. If one has been posted, please point me to it, but I assure you, I've read every post in this thread (and others).

Have a sword or grip, food or something else that takes skill levels away from enfeebling, healing, enhancing and elemental skill to enhance melee related stats. It would be up to each RDM then how they use it and play the job that day.

I dunno, it just popped into my head just now so there's very little thought that went into it which means it's most likely full of holes.

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

But aside from enfeebling, what need does RDM have for high skill in those others at any point? Healing Magic and Enhancing are a joke, and most RDM I know don't have much time for Elemental magic in parties.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

I know full and well that game design can change the opinions of the people. And so do you. /point RNG nerf. Will we pervert it? Yep. Will we only take our favorite facet and ram it into the wall multiple times? Sure. But they can still affect how we play. This isn't some universe made from holy beings. It's a billion lines of code. That's it.

BST updates - did BST start getting invites when the EXP penalties were dropped, when jug pet duration was improved and Snarl was added?

Nope.

Would BST like EXP/Merit PTs from time to time? Hell yes. I have a A- in Axe, yet BST is somehow isn't even seen as a DD. You probably don't either, but I'd most certainly beg to differ.

PUP got BLM and WHM head attachments and people still scratch thier heads about what to invite this versitile job for. The BLM and RNG automations supplant PUPs DD, the WHM head with WHM or DNC sub makes them a viable main healer.

DRG, even after the two hour adjustment, even after the Super Jump recast was lowered, even after being given a second Accuracy Bonus trait and updates to /SAM, its still seen as lolDRG.

THF - master of enmity redirection - is given further means to redirect enmity and still they don't have a place in PTs because we have a community that no longer values hate control in party situations.

RNGs hardly even exist in endgame now. This job is the one and only case where your claim holds any validity, aside from the very first updates to RDM. And its those changes that brought RDM to where it is today, its why we have all these Avesta wannabes out there.

If we go back and change RDM or take things away from there, we bacially take them back to where SCH is now, only they'll be even less special than SCHs.

A page ago, when YM posted his job levels, he was setting you up for a trap and you took the bait. But he already beat me to calling you out on the fallacy. Granted, The Internet is the last place that it'll matter, but you should be aware that it makes your argument look weak.

/point all the testing Armando did while being level 50 PLD.

Yes, but YM isn't Armando. YM has always been a RDM True Believer.

I play a job where the problem is the opposite of RDM, CORs DD is quite often accepted, but CORs refuse to spend toward the ability to DD like RDMs refuse to main heal. I find that ass-backwards. But then, the motive is sometimes the same as RDM:

Cool lookin' AF + a Refresh ability= I can play as retarded as I want.

As long as these jobs have a refresh ability, people will find a way to abuse them. BRDs complete inability to be a worthwhile DD keeps it in check, RDMs casting duties often keep it in check while expense and randomized buff values keeps the CORs in check. There are drawbacks for each and I'd like to see it stay that way.

If CORs gained the ability to tank, I think RDMs and BRDs would object to that since RDM can do it to an extent and BRDs had that ability taken away. If RDM got the ability for TP to affect thier magic or enfeebles, BLU and DNC would have something to say about it.

SE looks at each new mechanic they add rather carefully, I very much doubt they'll be cannibalizing one job to help one that already has it really good. The "strategem" update to Quick Draw wouldn't impact SCH in the slightest since the fuctions of those abilitys are completely different. SE recyled some design there, but not the function of the abilities.

The question is how to change RDM without recycling and diminishing other roles. Its the question no RDM here has given a good answer to. What we have gotten is a romantic rehash of what the instruction manual and SE says about RDM. SE makes the game, they can't tell the community how to play it.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

Has it occured to you that some of us might, in fact, actually like the idea of Enspells and don't want to have to solo in order to use them?

Actually, I do understand. In fact, I've used en- spells to the party's great advantage in some of the lower level parties; I kept my sword updated back then, just for that purpose:
- Some level 9 or 10 sword, to
- Flame Sword, to
- Auriga Xiphos, to
- Centurion's Sword, to
- Republic Sword.

Yes, many of those are HQ swords. And, yes, I only used the Flame Sword for one level. (I still have most of those swords, in fact. ) And, yes, I carried melee gear, space and gil permitting. Only stopped updating sword when I realized my duty in party was heavy enough that I would do better not having the distraction of melee'ing.

I definitely like the idea of using sword and en- spells, when it's helpful.

However, instead of "wanting to use en- spell in exp parties", I wanted something a bit more complicated--to serve the party to the best of my ability. If it meant en- spell and swing away, I'd do that. If it meant keep the wands on full time and stay in the back, I'd do that, too.

* * *

Regarding the details of difference between BLU and a theoretical version of melee RDM: Of course the details would differ. The style, though, is still full-time melee-mage, both in your description, and for BLU in practice.

Ask yourself this: how many of those dissatisfied with RDM have said "This is what Red Mage should have been!" when Blue Mage first came out?

The design of BLU is S-E's answer to the cry for a "true" melee-mage. Hence, I keep pointing the malcontent folks to it; it is the solution we already have.

Is BLU perfect? No. And, it shouldn't be, just like RDM shouldn't be either. Just as important, BLU shouldn't be RDM, and RDM shouldn't be BLU.

I'd like meleeing in Campaign Battle to not be regarded as an act of callous selfishness.

Where did you get this idea? The last thread on the site about it, all the mage players overwhelming agreed that if soloing in Campaign Battles, you are free to melee to your heart's content.

Backline RDM should survive. But frontline RDM should exist, secondary to backline RDM. Right now, for all practical intents and purposes, it doesn't.

Front line RDM really depends on the player and a group s/he is with. I do agree with the assertion that it's relatively rare, though not to the extent you wording suggests.

Perhaps I'm just too happy with all I can do right now on RDM? The back line doesn't seem to be very confining, given all the good stuff we have. I'm slowly building a melee setup for RDM more as a fun, side project; don't feel any desperate need to swing the sword (or dagger) more. (Sword skill merit Lv.4! Helpful to my PLD and BLU, too.)

In any case, S-E does agree with you (though likely not with some of the other posters and their outrageous "fixes"). Believe it or not, I do look forward to the update, trusting the Devs will make best effort to keep the changes reasonable--I'm very curious as to what they have in mind. The place of RDM in FFXI's community is something I care deeply about.

* * *

By the way, Red Mages are not "surviving" in the back line right now; we're thriving.

* * *

DRG [ ... ] still seen as lolDRG.

THF [...] don't have a place in PTs because we have a community that no longer values hate control in party situations.

Well, the thing is, I've partied with both THF and DRG quite a bit in the Greater Colibri camp. They may not be thought of as the "impossible to guage DDs", but apparently many party leaders do recognize jobs good with piercing weapons aren't a bad idea for that camp.

RNGs hardly even exist in endgame now.

We had rangers at Proto-Ultima and Sky (Genbu, Seiryu, Suzaku, Byakko) last night. (Yes, yes, more than one RNG.) They all have other jobs, I think, so it's not a matter of pity allowance. Shadowbind certainly helped us out a whole bunch.

It's a bit premature to pronuce RNG dead in endgame, I think.

The question is how to change RDM without recycling and diminishing other roles.

I think that's the wrong question. Instead, should ask: "Is Red Mage successful?"

* * *

Worth repeating... ^_^

I have yet to see a workable solution that would allow for frontline RDM that doesn't sacrifice backline RDM or make the job far too powerful. If one has been posted, please point me to it, but I assure you, I've read every post in this thread (and others).

BRDs complete inability to be a worthwhile DD keeps it in check, RDMs casting duties often keep it in check while expense and randomized buff values keeps the CORs in check. [There are] a drawback for each and I'd like to see it stay that way.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

Where did you get this idea? The last thread on the site about it, all the mage players overwhelming agreed that if soloing in Campaign Battles, you are free to melee to your heart's content.

You seem to forget there are a truckload of corpses laying around those mages, its pretty sad when all the raises are being passed out by PLD, BLMs and DRGs and not the jobs that are more commonly known to do it. That most people don't even bother to do many Campaign Ops to restock the outposts, so there's no reraise and you have to be affliated with a particular nation to buy the items from the outpost.

Sure, we can sub DNC or WHM, we could form PTs if it actually made a difference (it doesn't) but the fact remains TONs of people see RDMs and WHMs crawl over all the dead bodies to twack the mob for practically no worthwhile damage.

I've taken the policy to remember the RDM and WHM who do remember to raise and help cure allies and just leave the rest dead as they leave the rest of us.

I mean, really, while the "Regen" units are a cute take on similar RTS units, we know why they're really being added - its the only way some of us are going to see a cure. I got DNC and WHM subs.

I think that's the wrong question. Instead, should ask: "Is Red Mage successful?"

I don't think my question is wrong in the slightest. RDM is undeniably successful. But the RDMs here are a bottomless pit of wants and "needs" and all the ideas presented thus far diminish what is unique about another job by suggesting RDM be given similar traits/spells/abilities to those other jobs. Lame, lame, lame.

Where's an idea that's in-line with RDM that doesn't diminish the roles of other jobs or equipment? I've not seen such ideas.

My question is important because while the community may not look for answers in this fashion, but SE often does. The updates they make to jobs usually stay in the spirit of those jobs. What's in the spirit of RDM?

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

"Mini" off-topic aside about uncaring mages in campaign rants

You seem to forget there are a truckload of corpses laying around those mages, its pretty sad when all the raises are being passed out by PLD, BLMs and DRGs and not the jobs that are more commonly known to do it.

You're supposed to cover your own RR when you solo; any BST player would tell you that, I would have thought. (If you're not in party together, and you're not sharing exp, then, you're soloing.)

Perhaps you're right about different worlds having different population; your bleak picture of heartless RDMs and WHMs ignoring all the people on the ground just doesn't happen here on Ifrit.

Still, don't pin the responsibility for raise on the mages, unless they are in your party/alliance. Soloing means bring your own reraise solution: level /WHM, or have RR items. Simple as that.

[Saren]

Re: Refresh II

You seem to forget there are a truckload of corpses laying around those mages, its pretty sad when all the raises are being passed out by PLD, BLMs and DRGs and not the jobs that are more commonly known to do it.

Sorry about the derail but I've done a few campaign battles now as whm and I can tell you why I stopped raising people much, they already have one, they just haven't gotten up yet. At least 3/4 of the raises I have given in campaign have been to people who already have raise. It's not like besieged where you normally get enough items to just keep going without having to rest much, in campaign 100mp is a lot and resting can be dangerous.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

I figure I'll take this one at a time:

BST updates - did BST start getting invites when the EXP penalties were dropped, when jug pet duration was improved and Snarl was added?

Nope.

Would BST like EXP/Merit PTs from time to time? Hell yes. I have a A- in Axe, yet BST is somehow isn't even seen as a DD. You probably don't either, but I'd most certainly beg to differ.

I brought this first because it's kind of a "buh?" Why bring Beastmaster in to a Red Mage thread? That's something I see you do a lot of: "Oh, wah, why are Red Mages complaining when they get all the invites in the world?" Maybe you should level Red Mage if it's so good.

Oh wait: you don't, because you know full well how it is.

(And, by the way, I already know firsthand that Beastmasters are awesome DDs. And I don't think anybody here is able to deny it, either.)

If we go back and change RDM or take things away from there, we bacially take them back to where SCH is now, only they'll be even less special than SCHs.

Define "special."

The way I see it, a Scholar is just a Red Mage who traded his Sword for more magey stuff. If Scholar got Refresh alone, even if incompatible with Accession, they're invite rates will skyrocket. Hey, it worked for Red Mage, didn't it?

However, you make a good point (albeit one that has already been made): if the "magey stuff" is going to be all that valuable, we're going to have to find a way to make the sword at least as valuable, in order for the "trade" to be equal.

And as you said:

The question is how to change RDM without recycling and diminishing other roles. Its the question no RDM here has given a good answer to. What we have gotten is a romantic rehash of what the instruction manual and SE says about RDM. SE makes the game, they can't tell the community how to play it.

We haven't found a way to make the sword valuable: only ways to make it viable. An example of how to make it valuable is to half the total amount of Enhancing Magic Skill levels to increment the Enspells from 20 to 10: it won't step on the shoes of any other job, and it uses the simplest route of just increasing the base damage. (Credit for said idea to the guy who knows who he is. )

Oh, but what about misses? I have long stated that 1-Handed weapons, as in, the kind that Red Mages, Thieves, Dancers, and Beastmasters alike specialize in, should have been, and should be, given the DEX:Accuracy ratio improvement that has currently blessed 2-Handed weapons alongside their already useful STR:Attack ratio improvement.

Yes, but YM isn't Armando. YM has always been a RDM True Believer.

Please define.

Ask yourself this: how many of those dissatisfied with RDM have said "This is what Red Mage should have been!" when Blue Mage first came out?

The design of BLU is S-E's answer to the cry for a "true" melee-mage. Hence, I keep pointing the malcontent folks to it; it is the solution we already have.

This I just find backwards. Blue Mage comes in to the position that Red Mages have been promised from the word go, then people start saying "we already have a melee-mage: it's BLU." (da-bo-dee-da-bo-dah . . . )

Blue Mage hasn't even been here forever! Red Mages were the "melee mages" first, and to all of your "being a melee mage would step on Blue Mage's turf," is completely screwed up backwards! They stepped on the turf that was promised us, first, so what is wrong with us taking it back?

Plus, historically, Blue Mages have been more backline than Red Mages, and (don't quote me on this, I just read it somewhere) Blue mage wasn't actually intended to be the melee-heavy job it is today.

But, really, you can ignore all I have to say about that if you want: after all, I'm just an angry Red Mage with no experience (no "trap" intended). But I think this former quote-to-live-by from Lmnop explains it all:

Red Mages could perform many roles, including main heal. When you can do multiple things, you always end up doing what's needed most, most often.

Blue mages knew from the get-go. If they start doing "support-y" things, it's all they'll do

----

By the way, Red Mages are not "surviving" in the back line right now; we're thriving.

And this is the issue.

I don't think my question is wrong in the slightest. RDM is undeniably successful.

From your perspective of "party invites = success," this is correct.

all the ideas presented thus far diminish what is unique about another job by suggesting RDM be given similar traits/spells/abilities to those other jobs. Lame, lame, lame.

From the same perspective, this is not.

Name one place on this thread where anybody dared suggest making Red Mage anything like another job. Oh, and by the way: "You all want RDM to be BLU!" doesn't count, as I have already disputed that above.

Where's an idea that's in-line with RDM that doesn't diminish the roles of other jobs or equipment? I've not seen such ideas.

My question is important because while the community may not look for answers in this fashion, but SE often does. The updates they make to jobs usually stay in the spirit of those jobs. What's in the spirit of RDM?

Doublecast (a classic Red Mage Ability, might I add). "En-staving" Enspells. Reducing the number of Enhancing Skill Levels it takes for Enspell Base Damage to go up. Heck, not even Blue Mage can cast spells and swing a sword at the exact same time, as per another suggestion that was made.

See, the thing you have to understand about us so-called "melee-mad Red Mages" is that we don't want to step on the toes of any job, including White Mage and Blue Mage. All we want is something that more fits with "the spirit of RDM," which you of all people ironically brought up.

Protip: backline Refresh whoring is not the "spirit of RDM." What us so-called "melee-mad" Red Mages want is: the ability to utilize our frontline and backline abilities with equal proficiency. That is the spirit of the jack-of-all-trades. That is the spirit of the so-called "melee mage." That is the spirit we are trying to capture because that is the spirit of the Red Mage!

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

(>^_^<)

This is all I have to say to all you Enspell enthusiasts.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vo_9sddPlo[/ame]



Why couldn't SE have simply just implemented my favorite job ever?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

YM, you really know nothing about RDM's role past and present. You complain about a situation RDM is in now that you have not experienced yet, you also never experienced as it did function prior to ToA.

Burn PTs have hurt RDM's ability to do its job, but burn PTs have not hurt the design of RDM itself elsewhere.

Big problem is you guys sit on your asses and expect SE to fix it all for you when nothing is wrong at all, save for the fact most RDMs are too weak to resist an invite for the sake of playing the job as they'd truely like to play it.

Its really not hard to find people willing to play the way you want, the difficulty is finding those people and levelling fast, which doens't really happen unless you make sacrifices.

I have a THF I static with my DNC and a PLD. Do you know how scared shitless people are to be SATAed these days? THFs biggest job definition and source of spike damage is hurled out the window for the sake of Burn PT's EXP per hour.

Guess what I have to do as a DNC to make SATA happen for the THF?

I have to give up any hope of using /SAM 60+, go /NIN instead and I have to ration out all my flourishes more carefully to have 2 Finishing moves for Animated flourish when I could horde them away for Reverse Flourish had I not had to have been the SATA partner.

My point? Everyone has to give up a little something they want to make faster EXP happen. This has always been the case for most, if not all jobs in the game. You think I honestly LIKE subbing /NIN. Please think again. You think I enjoy pullling? No, but if it gets the faster EXP, I'll do it.

Sometimes you make a sacrifice so a friend can play how they want, sometimes you do it so the PT moves more quickly. If you don't like it, there are options, but there aren't any options that offer faster EXP. Its your choice.

If you take the invite in which you are pink mage, you have no one to blame but yourself. I know people who insist on doing things the hard way. They don't cap thier EXP. I just accept that to do things quickly I have to sacrifice things.

It doesn't stop me from trying different things or taking slower PTs at times, but at high level, I just accept the way it is because players will always find another "fast, safe, easy" way to EXP and it will come at the expense of some PT dynamics.

You want to melee? Build your own PTs. Build small PTs like SE has been encouraging and you can have a different role. But you can't do that and get fast EXP, too. Just the way it is.

Instead of trying to change the nature of EXP PTs, try changing things for your situation.

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

I don't entirely agree with you BBQ. Mainly on the matter of burn parties and it being up to us and not SE. You're partly right there in that it's largely the community's fault for RDM getting pigeon-holed into the pink make role. However, if traditional parties where you need a RDM to cripple an otherwise too powerful enemy (SC + MB) actually gave EXP that was at least comparable to burns, well then I guarantee you'd see a lot less RDM in the self-denigrating spamfest that is TP burns.

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

RDM in pre-burn parties still don't have time for melee Malacite.