Refresh II

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

I'm at a last resort, or sleep is calling me, but, I must break the taboo, to prove a point. Nerf. Samurai. Warrior. Bard. Colibri. Imps. Nerf. Fix. Change. How. Any. Possible. Sleep. Now.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

Eh, flaws, trade-offs . . . they both meant the same thing to me.

Without "flaws" or trade-offs, RDM would be perfect. Then, players of all other jobs would cry, "Make us PERFECT, too!"

Then, everyone would just play one job--PRF. Because it's the one job which can solo Kirin in the morning and Dynamis Lord in the afternoon--and it'd be every job, or just RDM--doesn't matter which the least bit, since no one in his right mind would use anything else other than PRF.

I've read that in an older FF game, a lot of players would just make a party of RDMs, because they'd destroy anything and everything with all the DD and magic capability from the one job alone. Call me a contrarian, but having FFXI full of just one job, or having it so ever job can do everything, sounds rather dull.

You probably don't want to take RDM to that extreme, I hope, but it's a slippery slope when it comes to player designed buffs to jobs.

A better way of stating what I did, then, would be "You claim that without sub-par melee, Red Mage will have no flaw."

That'd be overstating my position a bit; there's a bit more more nuance to it.

Take another "support role" job, for example: Corsair. The community more or less universally considers its damage output to be helpful, if a bit split on whether it's "supplemental" or "decent" damage.

Its B ranked Marksmanship matches RDM's B ranked Sword and Dagger. I would say 'B' isn't what's holding back the RDM's DDing capability. (Yes, yes, I know Marksmanship has better WS and better damage formula.)

Instead, it's the spell casting. Where as COR gets to keep its TP, and uses very time efficient JAs, RDMs are stuck casting and casting and casting, usually switching weapon and losing TP in the process.

That, is the "trade off"; the impressive spell list comes with the price of cast time and TP elimination. What I'm arguing is that there should be this trade off--we should not be able to handle a very heavy cast load and do decent damage with a sword at the same time.

What I was going for was "Make Red Mage more like Red Mage and make Scholar like whatever the heck Red Mage was before."

That still reads like "Turn SCH into RDM, and make RDM into something it isn't right now--I don't care how successful RDM is currently."

* * *

They're gonna be crushed when they realize that - much like THF, BST and DRG - even the most awesome changes will not change the way the community sees a job.

DRG's was first destroyed by the TP mechanism change, but its reputation has been rehabilitated to some degree. THF's reputation was briefly lifted with the dagger damage changes, but unfortunately sunk by the two-handed weapon update (which helped in part to rehabilitate the likes of DRG). Those reputations did change, in accordance to what S-E has done.

Likely nothing will ever much change BST's reputation, I'll grant you that. However, there has always been a small but entrenched minority of non-BST players who at least know they make great DDs in normal exp parties. (Some of us non-beasties even ask BSTs to "tank" with HQ crab jug pets in some situations.)

To say there's nothing S-E can do to alter player community's view toward jobs is silly; it has happened before, and will happen again--we've witnessed the full resurgence of PLD at endgame, as PLD/NIN, of all things. PLD/WAR is quite popular in pre-Lv.72 exp parties as well, thanks to the updates.

(To caution the melee-mad players that the upcoming additions to RDM won't make them great front-liners, though, is very prudent.)

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

2006 Job Updates (Still waiting for that Scythe and SMN adjustment SE!)

Red Mage
Red mage is a complex and powerful job once mastered. We are thinking about adding new magic, but the nature of the spells has yet to be decided.

Off Topic but from the same page about SMN

Summoner
Currently, the trend is for summoners to only call out their avatars to use a blood pact ability, but we want to create something that will encourage summoners to keep their avatars out for longer periods of time. Also, we will adjust the abilities that avatars use so that they are based on the summoner's summoning skill. We have no plans to add Bahamut as an avatar, because we would like to preserve his powerful image. We would have to make him weaker if he became a player's avatar, and we do not want to do that. We are thinking about new avatars for Treasures of Aht Urhgan, however, so stay tuned.

See Also:http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/gen...expansion.html

Red Mage
Considering magic to allow RDM to move up to front lines.

[Lmnop]

Re: Refresh II

I just showed you, but then, its just proof how selective a reader some RDMs may be.

Hmm, one could make the argument that you're the one guilty of that...

Magic that will provide Red Mages more chances to fight with their sword. It won't have Red Mages constantly on the front lines of battle, but since we bothered to give them such prowess with the sword, we would like to see them used more as magical swordsmen.

There. I've bolded every part of the quote that you didn't bold. The result? I see more text that agrees with YM than you. Seems pretty clear.

No one's asking for RDM to become a primary DD and S-E certainly wouldn't do that to the job. But it's clear that a) RDMs already have good melee-ability and b) many players want more reason to use it.

I'm still thinking they'll do something like en-acid bolt that they'll use to swing 'til it hits then go back to the backline. Wouldn't be much, but would make people feel better about the kitchen utensils they have equipped.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

There. I've bolded every part of the quote that you didn't bold. The result? I see more text that agrees with YM than you. Seems pretty clear.

Don't be stupid, you know full and well what SE thinks doesn't mean a damn thing when the jobs fall into the hands of the community. Their comment more or less acknowledges this. They're basically saying you're getting a situational spell. RDMs think they're getting the second coming of Christ.

No one's asking for RDM to become a primary DD and S-E certainly wouldn't do that to the job. But it's clear that a) RDMs already have good melee-ability and b) many players want more reason to use it.

I wouldn't say "no one" but I would also say someone here (who's still rather low and inexperienced with the job) wants it to be "perfect" and wipe the floor with the rest.

RDM's melee ability DoT is marred by its dependancy on casting and the demands a party makes on the role. Even in solo, the demands solo creates murder RDM's DoT, making the fight more about endurance than anything else. Have you ever farmed as a RDM? It's only slightly less pitiful than faming as a BRD, I seriously don't see what makes RDMs think they'll be a frontline force when it takes them forever to kill a too-weak mob.

I'm still thinking they'll do something like en-acid bolt that they'll use to swing 'til it hits then go back to the backline. Wouldn't be much, but would make people feel better about the kitchen utensils they have equipped.

People's concepts for "improving" any job often depend on cannibalizing a skill from one job and giving it to another. Its the basis of this entire thread and even I had to realize that and correct myself saying perhaps WHM or SCH should be given something else.

DNC was just added to the game, I doubt SE is going to give you a Defense-Down spell when (1) That's already a secondary effect of Dia (2) Its been given to DNC and additionally been given to THF, WAR, DRK, RNG through ammunition.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

They're basically saying you're getting a situational spell. RDMs think they're getting the second coming of Christ.

I chuckled, even though I'm one of those RDMs who honestly think RDMs don't need anything at the moment.

People's concepts for "improving" any job often depend on cannibalizing a skill from one job and giving it to another. Its the basis of this entire thread [ ...]

Not just this thread or this job; seems 90% of job improvement ideas are basically one form of job homogenization or another--make every job more and more alike. Left to our own device, we players will eventually come up with one job to rule them all, and in the darkness--that'd be server shutdown--combine them. (Or maybe the blob would be a better metaphor?)

DNC was just added to the game, I doubt SE is going to give you a Defense-Down spell when (1) That's already a secondary effect of Dia (2) Its been given to DNC and additionally been given to THF, WAR, DRK, RNG through ammunition.

Not to mention BLU's Frightful Roar, and Angon from DRG. Can also argue that the indirect effect from DRK's Absorb-VIT (and Absorb-AGI, sort of, for crit hit/DEX builds) counts as well.

Wouldn't count on DRK or WAR to hit an IT monster with an acid bolt, though, and even THFs are a bit iffy. At least WAR has Tomahawk for creatures with melee damage cut traits, or something. (Does anyone merit that? I'm not very familiar with the ways of Warriors at Lv.75 at all.)

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

I can't find the exact line on POL.com (it was there somewhere but I'm not digging through anymore old news @.@) but SE did say they want to make RDM "Busier" in parties, giving them more roles to fill.

Right now I find the only areas RDM is lacking in is DD (Physical & Magical). It wouldn't kill SE to give them a 3rd MAB @ 60 or 65 (following their trait pattern. Another MDB would be nice too) so that they come up just short of BLM's power. (like they've traditionally been in the offline games)


As for physical DD, hard to say here. I think A- sword rating, along with (maybe) some of the EX Sword WS would do the trick nicely. Definitely a trait that allows them to melee while casting. This would give them a unique distinction from BLU, our other fighter mage while not stepping on it's toes. RDM should be the stronger magical DD (elemental) while BLU dominates physical damage.

And you all know my stance on enspells (See my sig)


EDIT: Okay, I wanted to post into my sig but it keeps giving me shit over "BB code url not allowed". WTF is that? I tried saving the image to my desktop and changing it to .jpeg but the damn system still gives me crap...

The URL is http://www.geocities.com/rpgoat/pict...agicSwdsmn.gif sorry for the brief off-topic but this is really bugging the piss out of me.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

Here we go again with the "Make RDM God" crap.

RDM doesn't deserve A- skill in sword, they don't deserve another MAB Trait. Red Mage already has it really, really good. If you don't like what its invited for, tough shit. Build your own PTs or play another job.

RDM is supposed to be average at most things. SE realized that that was a formula for a failure of a job in MMOs, RDM needed something to distinguish itself from the pack so SE tweaked the job to have high endurance on MP and gave it a strong rating in enfeebling.

Have you even played RDM to 39 at least? It's miserable, its the best simulation of playing the job how it was before the updates to RDM. Had DNC and SCH had not been added to the game, you couldn't pay me to level it that far a second time. It has nothing special to distinguish itself at those levels.

And that's the way the job stayed to 50 originally. There was no Refresh or Convert going for RDM, they weren't wanted in PTs. That changed and now RDM has it really, really good.

Why do people not understand RDM was once this horribly broken mess of a job and now its one of the most finely tuned jobs in the game? If you don't like how it plays out at higher levels, play something else if you're not getting what you need from it. Plenty of people out there that like it how it is and strive to play every angle of the job, its not the communitys problem if you don't.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

I wouldn't say "no one" but I would also say someone here (who's still rather low and inexperienced with the job) wants it to be "perfect" and wipe the floor with the rest.

Okay, now you're just using ad hominem.

Nowhere did I ever say I wanted Red Mage to be perfect (far from it, actually). If removing Refresh entirely from our spell list entirely was a viable option, I'd take that stance. But the only time we actually had something removed from our spell list was when none of us could even use the spell yet anyways (I am, of course, referencing Cure V and its just removal from RDM before the 70 cap was lifted). But the best I can do is suggest giving it to Scholar, while making it incompatible with Accession.

Look, I think this IM sums it up fairly nicely:

The Savage. says:
Everybody wants their favorite job to be perfect.
The Savage. says:
EVRY JOB I THIS GAME should be perfect.
The Savage. says:
We should never have to ask for another tweak.
The Savage. says:
Now, they're simply afraid we're asking for the job to be ultimate.
The Savage. says:
Not true.
The Savage. says:
We're just asking for it to live up to it's theme.
The Savage. says:
And be respected for that.
[Yellow Mage] I call Lucario. says:
So by "perfect," we mean "does its job without hinderence."
The Savage. says:
That's what I take from it.
[Yellow Mage] I call Lucario. says:
No, that was probably a poor way of putting it.
The Savage. says:
If you can play your job's intended role, any part of that, at any time, then yes, the job is perfect.
[Yellow Mage] I call Lucario. says:
But the catch is basically how well it's played.
The Savage. says:
Well, that will always be a catch. It'll always depend on the player using the class.
The Savage. says:
But what we're looking for is incentive to utilize those roles.
The Savage. says:
People can weed out individual players as they see fit.
[Yellow Mage] I call Lucario. says:
I mean like Red Mage vs. White Mage in Healing, Red Mage vs. Paladin in Tanking, and so on.
The Savage. says:
Yeah, that's always a problem.
The Savage. says:
People respect spcialization in the game. They frown upon generalization.
[Yellow Mage] I call Lucario. says:
The quality of our duties should definately not even come close to those specialized jobs.
The Savage. says:
Absolutely.
Akashimo Hakubi - Nekoai Nanashi says:
still, we should be able to do something that isn't comepletly specialized, but comee damn well close to it
The Savage. says:
Agreed.
Akashimo Hakubi - Nekoai Nanashi says:
except healing
Akashimo Hakubi - Nekoai Nanashi says:
no healing for rdm >..
[Yellow Mage] I call Lucario. says:
I wouldn't say "damn well close" as much as "up to par."
The Savage. says:
Actually, I have no problem with RDM healing as necessary. We just should not be so good at it that we can easily replace the specialist.
[Yellow Mage] I call Lucario. says:
Agreed.

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh II

What I take from Elmer's translation of SE's statement is this: RDM's melee is marginalized because it's useful only in the rarest of special cases. This makes SE sad. SE wants there to be more situations where RDM melee is used. SE is not, however, interested in making RDM a true DD.

My concern is that SE won't take the steps necessary to make RDM melee practical. RDM melee is not used now because it's impractical to use it -- RDM hitting more than twice per minute and RDM using magic are currently mutually exclusive, RDMs are not accurate enough with their magic to be able to give up ther staves on a whim, and RDM melee allowed to occur at full strength (such as it is) almost always isn't remotely worth the cost of, uh, giving up a RDM. However, improving RDM melee enough in terms of raw power to make them worth a near-total abstinence from spellcasting would mean making their melee strong enough to impose upon the real melees, as well as run a high risk of making RDM the perfect job and letting loose the "omniburn".

Thus, I feel a better approach would be to make melee and spellcasting more compatible with each other for a RDM. By taking this approach, it would be possible to make RDM melee a fair tradeoff, and the use of sword vs. staff in a given situation a question worthy of debate. Another approach one could use, albeit a less effective one and one that would be easier to wuss out of doing effectively and harder to convince the community of the efficacy of, would be to make RDM better at spellcasting by meleeing. The more ways we can do that, the more situations there could be for us to have a reason to do so. -- Pteryx

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

Thus, I feel a better approach would be to make melee and spellcasting more compatible with each other for a RDM. By taking this approach, it would be possible to make RDM melee a fair tradeoff, and the use of sword vs. staff in a given situation a question worthy of debate. Another approach one could use, albeit a less effective one and one that would be easier to wuss out of doing effectively and harder to convince the community of the efficacy of, would be to make RDM better at spellcasting by meleeing. The more ways we can do that, the more situations there could be for us to have a reason to do so. -- Pteryx

You just described the Blue Mage.

This is why some of us has been say, "Go play BLU." If the style of play people prefer is already there, why bother change a successful job just to make it more alike to another (sucessful) job? Just change job instead...

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

why bother change a successful job

Given the sad state some of the jobs are/were in, it's hard to label any job as "Successful".

I really don't think another MAB trait would break RDM BBQ. It would just help make their nukes count for more, particularly @ end game and in merits. Only having 2 traits with a C+ rating is a joke. The job's never been quite that weak in nuking before, and even with 3 traits they still can't touch the raw power of BLM.

As others have suggested, the inclusion of a melee-while-casting trait (Something I've come up with on my own tyvm ) as well as Magic Accuracy Traits (that's something unique I hadn't personally thought of ^^) would go a long way towards alleviating RDM's front-line woes.

And what's wrong with A- sword rating? RDM and BLU have identical base stats in every category save Sword Skill, so why not change that? IMO they're two sides of the same coin. A- would actually justify RDM gearing up for melee (if they so choose)

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

(Something I've come up with on my own tyvm )

dirty lies!

[Coinspinner]

Re: Refresh II

I've read that in an older FF game, a lot of players would just make a party of RDMs, because they'd destroy anything and everything with all the DD and magic capability from the one job alone.

It's easy enough to do in all of them but FF3. However, you can win those games with a party of all one job, of any job.

I really don't think another MAB trait would break RDM BBQ. It would just help make their nukes count for more, particularly @ end game and in merits. Only having 2 traits with a C+ rating is a joke. The job's never been quite that weak in nuking before, and even with 3 traits they still can't touch the raw power of BLM.

If you mean in other FF games, then take a look at FF5 again. 500 damage Fire 2 vs. 3000 damage Fire 3. They're not too hot at it in the other games either, probably at their best in FF1 where there's a bug that prevents INT from affecting black magic.

As for MAB, well, Fast Cast also enhances DPS if you're on a chain nuking bent. :p

[Lmnop]

Re: Refresh II

Don't be stupid, you know full and well what SE thinks doesn't mean a damn thing when the jobs fall into the hands of the community.

I know full and well that game design can change the opinions of the people. And so do you. /point RNG nerf. Will we pervert it? Yep. Will we only take our favorite facet and ram it into the wall multiple times? Sure. But they can still affect how we play. This isn't some universe made from holy beings. It's a billion lines of code. That's it.

negative stuff about en-acid bolt idea

agreement

My apologies, I should have emphasized that this was my guess of a type of spell they'd add. I don't personally think RDMs being able to lower mob defense by 12.5% would be a good idea in addition to what they can already do. At least, not with how the job currently is (if you haven't noticed, my only real problem is how nutty good RDM and BRD work together. Make it so RDM in party means no BRD, and you could start to add enfeebles like this that mirror BRD buffs).

But that's what this is all about. The God Job argument is moot when even YM is pressing for things that lower RDM's relative advantage.

which leads into...

I wouldn't say "no one" but I would also say someone here (who's still rather low and inexperienced with the job) wants it to be "perfect" and wipe the floor with the rest.

A page ago, when YM posted his job levels, he was setting you up for a trap and you took the bait. But he already beat me to calling you out on the fallacy. Granted, The Internet is the last place that it'll matter, but you should be aware that it makes your argument look weak.

/point all the testing Armando did while being level 50 PLD.

Not just this thread or this job; seems 90% of job improvement ideas are basically one form of job homogenization or another--make every job more and more alike. Left to our own device, we players will eventually come up with one job to rule them all, and in the darkness--that'd be server shutdown--combine them. (Or maybe the blob would be a better metaphor?)

Nin+Brd+Rdm. We're 1/3rd the way there.