Refresh II

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

The idea is to make it harder to pigeonhole RDM into one and only one task...

So, you'd rather RDM be like... PUP? Not able to find a role?

"Guys, can you stop with the chaining? The cast time and recast time of everything has doubled." "Tell Jormy to stop shaking off Slow II--can't cast it again for another minute." "No more Refresh for you guys; recast is longer than duration now." "AFK 15 minutes to reset recast timer. Sorry!"

Going to be a bit selfish and say â—€No thanks.â–¶ >_>;

Unless your purpose is to make BRD (even) more popular? A least you can count on Ballads to always be available when you want to cast it. PLD will suffer again, too, with the single target Refresh messed up.


* * *

Regain?

As if SC+MB didn't have the last nail on its coffin, yet. Don't think TP Spam needs more love...

Want WHM to get more exp and merit parties? Nerf Utusemi, and adjust exp (lower VT-T exp, hike up IT exp). If substantial curing is needed, WHM will be wanted.

Not sure what can be done about SCH; it has a lot of potential (e.g Regen II-ga is a darn nifty trick, for example), but seems to be struggling to find an identity of its own. Good thing S-E is already working on that, so no need to fret too much now.

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

Take away the high cure skill from rdm, up enmity on cure 3 and 4, lower enmity down from errant, and that'll change some things dramatically.
Like, healing for rdms would be reduced to 200 native.
Enmity for cure 3 would be up to cure 4 and cure 4's to a voke and a half.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

Take away the high cure skill from rdm, up enmity on cure 3 and 4, lower enmity down from errant, and that'll change some things dramatically.
Like, healing for rdms would be reduced to 200 native.
Enmity for cure 3 would be up to cure 4 and cure 4's to a voke and a half.

Between Regens, WHMs handle healing with a lot of Cure III's and a few Cure V's; poisoning Cure III for them is a bad idea.

This "adjustment" to Cure III/IV would also add to PLD's enmity generating ability more, possibly making PLDs trivially good at that aspect of tanking (and thus invalidating a lot of enmity gear).

Nerfing the Errant set isn't so hot, either; have a look at who use it the most heavily--all the mages (sans BLU), not just us RDMs. In fact, it'll hurt the pre-endgame/pre-Assault mages the most, who have little to no comparable alternatives in many slots.

* * *

The world doesn't revolve around RDMs, and doesn't revolve around RDM players who hate curing, either. Have a care for how others (and the game) would suffer if your wish is granted...

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

Lets hear how you'd change healing so that its less desirable to have rdm play that role in meripo then. Cause I'm really running low on 'good' ideas.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

Lets hear how you'd change healing so that its less desirable to have rdm play that role in meripo then. Cause I'm really running low on 'good' ideas.

No need to change healing at all.

I keep repeating it, but seems like very few people caught it: change the exp distribution to give players more incentives to fight tougher monsters. (This isn't my idea, BTW; I stole it from Karinya.) Fighting tougher things means WHM will be welcomed as main healer, or at least a good many more parties would use a co-healer in addition to the single RDM.

That'd be the major change; lower amount of exp from Tough to Very Tough, while hike up Incredibly Tough ones.

The advantage of this over other suggestions is that it doesn't touch rest of the game mechanism--which are largely working, all in all, and don't need to be put through the blender just make RDM cure less.

* * *

Additional changes to support it would be some nerfing of Utsusemi from /NIN (put Ichi at two images, and increase recast time for Ni a bit, for example), and fixing the obviously broken (i.e. frequently abused) monsters like Imp. Those and other tweaks and can be added if and when it's determined that the exp changes weren't sufficient.


* * *

I'm looking for that happy middle place, where WS spam parties can still work, albeit with more danger, and cannot double the exp/hour compared to more old fashioned (i.e. party with true tank, SC+MB) set ups.

WS spam party := higher exp/hour on average, but higher risk.
SC+MB party := lower (but still decent) exp/hour, but steady and safer.

[Armando]

Re: Refresh II

I have to agree with Itazura. Those who want to nerf RDM's healing are only shooting the job in the foot.

What you really want (like Itazura already mentioned) is a reason to pick WHM over RDM as a main healer and for a RDM's main role to be so much more valuable relative to its other roles that it'd be a waste to have them do something else, much like it's currently a waste to have them or a WHM meleeing instead of casting =P

If enfeebling was critical to merit parties, things would be a whole lot different.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

Oh god, not the "Nerf Healing Skill" argument again. Besides, we have a reversal for that argument now.

Scholar. You'd get an automatic B skill from it, the only thing that would change is you'd get out of status cures.

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

Between Regens, WHMs handle healing with a lot of Cure III's and a few Cure V's; poisoning Cure III for them is a bad idea.

This "adjustment" to Cure III/IV would also add to PLD's enmity generating ability more, possibly making PLDs trivially good at that aspect of tanking (and thus invalidating a lot of enmity gear).

Nerfing the Errant set isn't so hot, either; have a look at who use it the most heavily--all the mages (sans BLU), not just us RDMs. In fact, it'll hurt the pre-endgame/pre-Assault mages the most, who have little to no comparable alternatives in many slots.

* * *

The world doesn't revolve around RDMs, and doesn't revolve around RDM players who hate curing, either. Have a care for how others (and the game) would suffer if your wish is granted...

Oh god, not the "Nerf Healing Skill" argument again. Besides, we have a reversal for that argument now.

Scholar. You'd get an automatic B skill from it, the only thing that would change is you'd get out of status cures.

Hmmmmmmmmm....
................
................
................
................
I got it!
Whm +30% Cure Potency Trait at 40
At 45 -50% enmity from cures
Add the 'poison to cures'
Everytime the pty/ally makes a light skill chain, if the cure is timed at a MB time, it heals double hp, or if against undead, deals double dmg.
BLM -50% enmity from nukes with less than 30% resist rates at 40
SCH both whm and blm's enmity traits at 60


As for ToAU mobs...
I'm oping for each ws done without sc after the possible window closes the mob recovers 50% of its lost HP and summons an expless shadow that hits twices as much in dmg with high resists to enfeebles.
<_<; Crazy yes.
Works to restore SC, maybe.
Effective, you decide '08

[Callisto]

Re: Refresh II

Holy crap I can't believe this is a 6-page thread.

I've been avoiding it because I didn't want to come in and piss all over someone's idea, but I was wondering what garnered 80+ replies.

At any rate, I agree with BBQ/Sev/Itaz and others about this being absolutely beyond neccesary. If you make Refresh subbable, that kills a good chunk of RDM's spot in a party, and while I'm a stickler for maintaining that Enfeebling is a good RDM's main role in endgame, Refresh is still a major role and that should go without saying.

Plain and simple, WHMs and BLMs don't need their own Refresh, because that's why you have support role jobs in the party. RDM doesn't need stronger Refresh because if you aren't able to make do with 3-5/tick you have from Refresh/Sanction/Gear, you're seriously doing it wrong.

And the single most important thing I saw in this thread, that needs to be stressed in every single freaking RDM thread evar lately, is this:

XP/Merits =/= Endgame RDM

Seriously, far too many people lately have been on here saying "RDM needs XXX" and basing their claim solely on their experiences fighting Greater Colibri. You need to actually do something outside of XP as RDM, and realize the ridiculous amount of versatility and ability the job already has before bitching about what it needs. RDM is already nearly broken to a point in certain aspects, giving it stronger Refresh would absolutely destroy balance amongst mage jobs. Given even stronger Refresh, why would a good RDM bother bringing a group to any fight where the target can be bound, slept, or kited?

[Lmnop]

Re: Refresh II

"Guys, can you stop with the chaining? The cast time and recast time of everything has doubled." "Tell Jormy to stop shaking off Slow II--can't cast it again for another minute." "No more Refresh for you guys; recast is longer than duration now." "AFK 15 minutes to reset recast timer. Sorry!"

Not at all. If all you're doing is casting Slow 2 and other enfeebles w/out giving a helping hand for cures, you probably deserve double cast time. The act of casting a spell of another type would counteract the effect, forcing you to vary your magic type. In fact, in accordance with it I'd want to be able to work into the positive -- gain more fast cast by casting stuff... fast. But anyway, it's still not my best idea. I think I should just stick to:

Yet another idea that probably isn't a good one. Apparently, I just like to bastardize this topic.

Also about Regain. This would get WHM more invites, for damn sure (WHM +BRD is already pretty good for merits) but it'd certainly encourage tp spam. especially since if it's not AoE, you're only Regaining one melee at a time. Discourages them to try to time themselves with each other.

----

Don't worry, I'm done thinking about ideas. I don't mind if S-E never does anything the direction I think they should go, but I have to say...

Like I said in my previous post, it doesn't matter what adjustment is made to any job. The issue is the player base and the attitude of getting the most exp in the least amount of time with as little effort as possible. We have bastardized the job so that we can do things as easy as possible and then get stuck in a role that a percentage don't like because of it. Since changnig the majority of player's attitudes is next to impossible (loldrg....STILL?) just accept the role we play and move on. If SE does an "adjustment" down the road, then we'll see how the player base will pervert that.

This is no reason to throw in the towel. "Oh shit, Monks are getting 100% tp back from using Asuran Fists. But if we fix this TP problem, something else will come up."

I like to know that they're trying to make my experience feel more balanced, and less monotonous. I have $15/month that pays for this privilege.

And on a related note, I would like to state that S-E has been impressing me in the last year. While I hate what AU exp has become, I like a lot of the AU activities such as Assaults, ISNMs, etc (Besieged kinda sucks, but it was obviously inspiration for Campaign Battles, which are quite nice), I like how ingenious the 5 newest jobs are (even if they have issues), but most importantly, I like the changes they've made to old jobs.

Gg, S-E.

[Silent Howler]

Re: Refresh II

And I don't think screwing with Refreshes is wise either. -- Pteryx

Maybe not, but as long as Red Mage has Refresh that is the reason why they will be in such high depend. Even if SE does buff Red Mage melee, it will be fun and all but I doubt anything would really change. Red Mage would be the same as it was before, only better. And like someone said earlier, you can't give a job too much without taking away something else.

[Celeal]

Re: Refresh II

IMHO, I really doubt S-E will/should buff RDM's melee damage. Imagine if RDM has A rank sword/dagger skill rating, that means 6 x RDM party setup is possible, which is very broken.

P.S. : RDM is already very powerful right now. Other jobs in the game has *holes* in it, RDM has the least.

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh II

Maybe not, but as long as Red Mage has Refresh that is the reason why they will be in such high depend. Even if SE does buff Red Mage melee, it will be fun and all but I doubt anything would really change. Red Mage would be the same as it was before, only better. And like someone said earlier, you can't give a job too much without taking away something else.

Is it wrong for us to be in high demand for Refresh? Heck, if anything I'd love to see SC+MB come back so I'm refeshing people other than myself. Am I right that you weren't around before ToAU, and thus never got to see us invited as refreshers? When Refresh wasn't seen as a tool to keep up with chain infinity with, but as something you cast on all the mages?

Heck, if you want to outright kill our ability to keep up with chain infinity, don't screw with Refresh -- screw with Convert. Make it work more like automaton Convert, and all of a sudden RDMs won't be able to keep MP indefinitely. Since Convert affects only us, and cannot be used on other party members, we'd be able to adapt back into the old buff/debuff role. Yes, our invites would go down significantly, but the invites we'd get would likely be for more traditional setups, with many mages for us to Refresh again. -- Pteryx

[Callisto]

Re: Refresh II

IMHO, I really doubt S-E will/should buff RDM's melee damage. Imagine if RDM has A rank sword/dagger skill rating, that means 6 x RDM party setup is possible, which is very broken.

Don't be silly. I'd invite at least one BRD for Minuet, it'd only be a RDM x5 party.

[Celeal]

Re: Refresh II

Don't be silly. I'd invite at least one BRD for Minuet, it'd only be a RDM x5 party.

Then it is beyond broken...