Refresh II

[Silent Howler]

Re: Refresh II

Where would a Refresh II fit into this? If anywhere, as a self-only buff gained at 51 that gives 5 MP/tick or the like. Even then, such a spell would more likely be used just to power up backline RDM even further in a way it doesn't need. Therefore, I don't favor new Refresh spells. If anything, we should get some kind of ability to gain MP through meleeing (Aspir Samba would do fine if it weren't for the fact that it only works on some mobs) -- maybe a spell that eats 1 TP/tick and converts it into 3 MP. -- Pteryx

I don't think Red Mage needs more Refresh. They already have Refresh, Covert, and anything else like Sanction, Ballad, etc. Unless Refresh was taken away from Red Mage altogether I don't see how this would be attractive to players.

[Balfree]

Re: Refresh II

Meh it was just a suggestion.

These are some sharp claws you guys always sport.

[Lambeaus]

Re: Refresh II

I'm definitely playing the game wrong. Level 54 BLM and I can count the number of times I've had Refresh cast on me on one hand

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh II

I don't think Red Mage needs more Refresh. They already have Refresh, Covert, and anything else like Sanction, Ballad, etc. Unless Refresh was taken away from Red Mage altogether I don't see how this would be attractive to players.

What a TP-into-MP conversion spell would do would be to give RDM a reason to melee. RDM melee is not worth it for the damage, but if it's worth it for some other reason, people will permit it. Additionally, as it stands now, meleeing has a negative impact on one's ability to gain MP, due to resting and meleeing being mutually exclusive (not that we get to rest much anymore, but old myths do die hard). This would turn it into a positive impact, so that if a RDM is meleeing they don't need to rest.

Basically, I'm discussing this sort of idea because... well, that's some of what the discussion is about -- the idea that Refresh was intended to free us up to melee. -- Pteryx

[Saren]

Re: Refresh II

What a TP-into-MP conversion spell would do would be to give RDM a reason to melee. RDM melee is not worth it for the damage, but if it's worth it for some other reason, people will permit it. Additionally, as it stands now, meleeing has a negative impact on one's ability to gain MP, due to resting and meleeing being mutually exclusive (not that we get to rest much anymore, but old myths do die hard). This would turn it into a positive impact, so that if a RDM is meleeing they don't need to rest.

From what rdms have been saying here it's not the need to rest thats stopping rdm meleeing it's the fact that they never stop casting, ever. Giving rdm better mp endurance when they already have, by a huge margin, the best mp endurance in game isn't going to to help them melee as far as I can see it.

If SE ever gave better mp endurance to rdm I would screw the back line drama and start levelling tank or mp free melee jobs instead.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

Basically, I'm discussing this sort of idea because... well, that's some of what the discussion is about -- the idea that Refresh was intended to free us up to melee. -- Pteryx

If it was so intended, it would have came with shorter cast and recast time, and be self-targeted only. Seems obvious that Refresh is meant to be used to help other party members' MP flow, and its cast and recast time meant to make it a heavy burden on the RDM--as in, it's a major part of a RDM's duty. Again, Refresh is designed to be a big part of the job, from the stand point of time.

The melee ability was there first, before Refresh and Convert, if I understand the history of RDM correctly. S-E decided that a magic swordsman wasn't special enough, and gave it tools to be a heavier spell caster.

* * *

The prohibition against RDM being in front at all is about using best practices. With casting a heavy casting load in a full party, it turns out melee is usually just a distraction with minimal benefit. (Fools are those who follow it religiously or discard it as "not what the description for RDM says!")

With a lighter casting load, the situation would change. Knowingly or not, many here suggest drastic changes to the spells and other jobs to achieve the goal of having enough time to melee.

Duo and Trio parties already allow that, though; after initial debuffs (sans staves since target isn't IT) and a few maintenance spells, a RDM would have the time to melee. It's in full parties fighting VT to IT++ that the spell cast load goes over the roof and staves become indispensable.

So, small groups, some colibri parties, Campaign Battle, soloing... RDM has the opportunity to use those melee skills, as is.

Rather than complaining about not able to melee, I encourage those who need the melee fix to find situation where it's welcomed--even needed. That's a much better idea than butchering up RDM and other jobs and making drastic changes just to force RDM to melee more.

* * *

I'm sorry many of you had false expectations because you misread S-E's job description for RDM: "These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

The word is "can", not "always". No where in there says "arts of sword" is to be utilized in every exp party, either.

Take up Blue Mage if you want to be a fighter-mage who's always fighting with a sword (or two!). I have enough competition seeking merit party as is...

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

>.>

Boost WHM or nerf RDM enough, and you can start adding lots of neat and finally useful enfeebles to RDMs.

I think I'm in love.
______________________________

I'm sorry many of you had false expectations because you misread S-E's job description for RDM: "These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

The word is "can", not "always". No where in there says "arts of sword" is to be utilized in every exp party, either.

That doesn't make it any less of a bait-and-switch.

MANUAL EDIT: Also, I can prove very easily that it is you who are interpreting it wrong in the first place, as S-E has very clearly stated their intent to put Red Mages on the frontline; maybe not for every single situation, but it is still, and always has been their intention with the job.
______________________________

Take up Blue Mage if you want to be a fighter-mage who's always fighting with a sword (or two!).

Also, am I the only one who is fed up with this "Go level BLU if you want a Melee Mage" response?

[Vyuru]

Re: Refresh II

Also, am I the only one who is fed up with this "Go level BLU if you want a Melee Mage" response?

While I can see why you'd be fed up with it... I have to ask isn't it true though?

Maybe I'm misreading what you are all saying, but why should a Rdm be able to even come close to what a full up melee can do damage wise while subbing whm or some other magey subjob?

Rdm complain about not getting access to Vorpal Blade, well, sub Pld, Blu, War, or Drk and you've got it. Considering everything that Rdm gets, you should not be able to have access to one of the best sword WS without giving up something That something is going to most likely be your white mage subjob.

You have spells to nuke with, you have enspells to add to your damage, and you get gear that boosts your enspell damage. You are also only limited on the Magic Burst side of things by the number of SC that the party can make. Blue Mages have to wait 2 minutes between MBs.

Is that everything that a blue mage can do? Yup.

Can a blue mage do everything that a rdm can do? Nope.

Red Mage =! Blue Mage

Red Mage is more support oriented, Blue Mage is more DD oriented.

DD wise, Rdm is fine the way it is. IMO what I see alot of people wanting is a full up support Rdm with the DD abilities of Blue Mage, and that is just not fair and should not be asked for. You can tweak Rdm for more damage but you have to lose out on the usefulness of the /whm subjob. Or you can go for more party support but lose out on the DD subjob and abilities.

You cannot gear for both roles, why should you expect to?

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Refresh II

Instead of complaining about burn PTs, if you don't like your role in them - DO NOT TAKE BURN PT INVITES. But I seriously doubt many RDMs are that steadfast in resisting an invite that isn't to thier liking when the EXP is fast.

FYI, I am not complaining about burn partys. I enjoy playing rdm in any situation, even a pt with slower exp in a non ToAU area. I just think the whole "whms should get a refresh spell" is silly. We, the players, bastardize the job and then whine, piss, and moan like a bunch of old women (oy, just hit myself between the eyes with that one huh? lol) about it.

While I can see why you'd be fed up with it... I have to ask isn't it true though?

I think its a hell of a valid point.

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

You cannot gear for both roles, why should you expect to?

Because the pimp hat told us to.

[Vyuru]

Re: Refresh II

I think its a hell of a valid point.

Care to elaborate, either in here or another thread, or point me towards a thread that has some good discussion on this issue?

As I see it now, I am not seeing anything from stopping a Rdm from slapping on some DD gear/food/sub/whatever and going out to DD, with the sole exception that they will not be able to manage healing duties, maybe be able to manage refresh duties, and maybe be able to handle a haste cycle.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be more than happy with a good DD rdm in the party. But I will say that so long as people don't do SC, or exp on Colibri, then what I would percieve as a big chunk of Rdm's DD abilities have just gone down the drain.

Also, right now I'm seeing this as if Rdm want to be able to melee and do everything that they are currently doing, then they are asking to be able to have it all, which is a bit unfair to the other jobs.

[Aksannyi]

Re: Refresh II

(oy, just hit myself between the eyes with that one huh? lol)

Not even touching that one.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

That doesn't make it any less of a bait-and-switch.

MANUAL EDIT: Also, I can prove very easily that it is you who are interpreting it wrong in the first place, as S-E has very clearly stated their intent to put Red Mages on the frontline; maybe not for every single situation, but it is still, and always has been their intention with the job.

So... You believe S-E's intention was for RDM to be up front in some situations, but not all... How is that different from what I described? What bait and switch?

I guess it'd be closer to the usage ratio if S-E had stated RDM is "A magic user who can take up the sword when needed," but the current description isn't wrong.

Also, am I the only one who is fed up with this "Go level BLU if you want a Melee Mage" response?

Don't know, but I know I'm fed up with people who complain so much about RDM's lackings, a job so versatile and wanted in much of the game.

I get plenty of use out of my Joyeuse, thank you very much; farmed 50k gil and almost 2k worth of limit points with it last night, for example. About to put it and other melee gear away in Mog Locker in a few minutes--and I'm happy to do so, since I'm going to do a few Assault run soon, and need the room for mage gear and loot. Flexibility is a good thing.

Thanks to RDM, I get to experience Assault, Dynamis, Sky, Sea, and Limbus. (Merit party, oddly enough, is a bit harder to come by.) I can farm EPs easily myself for seals and drops and a little limit points, unlike some other highly desired jobs. For soloing tough things, I have the option between toe-to-toe or kite-nuke. The list of good stuff just goes on and on.

Makes my eyes roll how unappreciative some RDMs are for all we have. Seriously, if melee'ing-100%-of-the-time mage floats your boat, BLU is that way. (BLU's a great deal of fun, too, I might add; wish I have the time to level it, but RDM is keeping me rather busy and entertained.)

Care to elaborate, either in here or another thread, or point me towards a thread that has some good discussion on this issue?

TGM was in agreement with you, I believe.

[Silent Howler]

Re: Refresh II

RDM: "These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword."

WHM: "By using recovery spells, white mages can ensure a party's survival."
Your point?

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

WHM: "By using recovery spells, white mages can ensure a party's survival."
Your point?

How about yours? Just because someone can, doesn't mean they always will.