Refresh II

[TheGrandMom]

Re: Refresh II

It was either something about nerfing rdm so that we could give them a boost, or a grandma being mistaken for a 27 year old's hot younger sister, but I could be mistaken.

HEY!! I never said HOT or YOUNGER!! LOL

[Vyuru]

Re: Refresh II

HEY!! I never said HOT or YOUNGER!! LOL

And yet you don't deny it either.....

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

And yet you don't deny it either.....

Yar. Now get with the photos so the jury can make a verdict!

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

The vast majority of the time I parse exp parties with PUP in it, they come out to be the top DD. Not just "good enough", or even "kept up with the rest", but the undisputed number one damage dealer.

If PUPs have trouble getting parties with better than fine damage dealing capability, I don't think being fine at melee'ing would do the job for RDM if the magic side is nerfed much.

* * *

Fundamentally, I see the exp system as (slightly) broken at merit levels; Red Mage itself is very well rounded, and doesn't need anything.

That's pretty much all you said about Red Mage in that entire post. All that stuff about EXP was nice, but . . .

No, it wouldn't do a thing to make melee'ing RDM better in exp parties . . .

Get off of this thread, then.

Also, about PUP being "better than fine," you forget they have a puppet. Otherwise, if a C in Hand-to-Hand is "better than fine," and Red Mages have B's in Sword and Dagger . . .

Look, personally, I don't want any direct buffs to our melee, just stuff to eliminate the primary problems of resists and busy-ness. Resists can be dealt with by letting our Enspells "Enstaff" our swords (thus eliminating the weapon-switch-lose-TP problem), giving Red Mages Doublecast (an ability Red Mages have had in most Final Fantasies up to this point, and can prove an aid to removing our busy-ness by reducing our time casting by at least half), and lowering resists on mobs in general (we're the best Enfeeblers in the game, and yet we still have trouble landing some simple Enfeebles later in the game . . . ).

Heck, even to balance out giving Red Mage even more versatility than it has now, I even proposed giving Refresh and a variant of Convert to Scholar, so that Red Mage won't be the absolute only job who can do so. And, personally, I think they would fit the whole Scholar backline-mage ensemble much better than on a Red Mage. If Doublecast is kept subbable (which it should be . . . ), then Red Mage effectively won't even be the only one getting it, and to boot, SCH/RDM is already a fairly potent combo.

What more could anybody honestly want? I don't want any more of your same "well, I think the job is fine as is," because it isn't! We've been neglected by S-E for years now, neglected even through the Group II Merits and all the other all-job updates, and you know as well and I that Red Mage is a bait-and-switch job right now as is. I want that to be fixed: right now, right with this upcoming version update!

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

YM, we have some fundamental disagreements, and it doesn't look like either one of us is willing to budge.

What more could anybody honestly want? I don't want any more of your same "well, I think the job is fine as is," because it isn't!

You're not doing a thing to convince me there's any major flaw with RDM--every job should have limitations, after all, and RDM's limitations and strength are reasonably balanced.

We've been neglected by S-E for years now, neglected even through the Group II Merits and all the other all-job updates, and you know as well and I that Red Mage is a bait-and-switch job right now as is.

We can argue until we're both blue in the face, but won't change the fact I do use my Joyeuse, just not in all situations. The truth for me is that there's no bait or switch, and having you repeating the line won't change the facts.

By the way, I'm at least as tired of the "bait-and-switch" argument as you are of "RDM is doing great", but even if that line has merits, wouldn't fixing the description be easier and faster? Take out "sword" entirely, for all I care; WHM's description doesn't mention anything about hammer, after all, even though they are quite handy with it.

If the "baiting" is stopped, is there anything actually terribly wrong with RDM itself?

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

YM, we have some fundamental disagreements, and it doesn't look like either one of us is willing to budge.

This I can agree with.

By the way, I'm at least as tired of the "bait-and-switch" argument as you are of "RDM is doing great", but even if that line has merits, wouldn't fixing the description be easier and faster? Take out "sword" entirely, for all I care; WHM's description doesn't mention anything about hammer, after all, even though they are quite handy with it.

If the "baiting" is stopped, is there anything actually terribly wrong with RDM itself?

This I can't.

You would rather Red Mage be descirbed as thus:

Extensive knowledge of ancient martial theory granted them the ability to wield dual schools of magic, between which they would alternate depending on the situation at hand.

Or better yet:

By utilizing recovery spells, Red Mages can ensure a party's survival.

. . .

Not to mention just merely changing the description would be a very cheap way of doing things. Oh, and let us not forget every single manual that has been released up to this point, with each and every rendition of the game, from original release, all the way to Vana'diel Collection 2008.

And you forget again that S-E isn't all too pleased with the way Red Mage is being played now, and have clearly stated their intent to bring them on the front line at the very least more often.

And you also seem to constantly ignore my Scholar arguments. Just look how Scholar is built: it is the perfect potential replacement to how Red Mage is played now. All it needs is a few of the tools that only Red Mage has at the moment.

Also: you claim Red Mage has no flaw. You are mistaken: Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, master of only Enfeebling (and, arguably, Enhancing). The very nature of the jack-of-all-trades is its own weakness: we're not the best at almost anything. Heck, look at our Healing Magic Skill: we have the worst score in that with the sole exception of a Scholar not on Light Arts. (Same applies to our Elemental Magic Skill, excluding a Scholar not on Dark Arts.) Our Defensive Skills are horrible (F in Shield? Even White Mages have a D!), and our only Ranged Skills are mostly jokes (though, admittedly, nobody expects a Red Mage with a Bow). Our Melee Skills? As has been discussed thoroughly in this thread, "GTFO the front line and Haste/Refresh me; if you want to melee, lvl BLU."

Although, I realize this immediately becomes a community problem: for any fix to be effective, the community has to be convinced that they want us to melee, rather than just sit there in the back line giving them Refresh/Haste. Unless a Red Mage at melee becomes desirable within the community, any such fixes we propose will only become obstacles, as we will still be restricted to the back line through it all. All, unless, almost everyone (not just S-E and the Red Mages themselves) wants us to melee. Only when that happens will any of the fixes we come up with become effective.

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

Give RDM Refresh II, make it stronger than Refresh (5-6/tic) and make it self-target only. This would go a long way towards keeping RDM up on the front lines.

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

Give RDM Refresh II, make it stronger than Refresh (5-6/tic) and make it self-target only. This would go a long way towards keeping RDM up on the front lines.

It won't.
It won't.
Just more mp for haste and cures ppl will think.
Thats the last thing needed.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

And you forget again that S-E isn't all too pleased with the way Red Mage is being played now, and have clearly stated their intent to bring them on the front line at the very least more often.

I'm sorry, but SE never said they were displeased with how RDM was being played. They, in fact, acknowledged how essential RDMs backline role is and said the frontline spells aren't intended to reinvent RDM's role, only to add flexibility.

Regardless of what their intentions were initially or are now, do you really think the community is going to stop inviting RDMs to main heal and start inviting them for DD? If you do, then I have a bridge to sell you. I think SE is just wasting RDMs time getting thier hopes up. RDM will never be seen as a DD.

And you also seem to constantly ignore my Scholar arguments. Just look how Scholar is built: it is the perfect potential replacement to how Red Mage is played now. All it needs is a few of the tools that only Red Mage has at the moment.

Its being ignored because your argument is wrong. SCH wasn't RDM's backline replacement, both it and DNC were added to the game to allieviate the need for healer jobs and to help jobs such as RDM and SMN not get completely pidgeonholed into them. They aren't a 100% deterrant from RDM main heal - RDM will still be called upon to do it, but they exist to make things easier on the populace when a healer is needed.

These jobs were also added to facillitate small groups instead of the usual 6/6 PTs and to that end, these jobs work extremely well.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

They, in fact, acknowledged how essential RDMs backline role is . . .

Links or it didn't happen.

Regardless of what their intentions were initially or are now, do you really think the community is going to stop inviting RDMs to main heal and start inviting them for DD?

Although, I realize this immediately becomes a community problem: for any fix to be effective, the community has to be convinced that they want us to melee, rather than just sit there in the back line giving them Refresh/Haste. Unless a Red Mage at melee becomes desirable within the community, any such fixes we propose will only become obstacles, as we will still be restricted to the back line through it all. All, unless, almost everyone (not just S-E and the Red Mages themselves) wants us to melee. Only when that happens will any of the fixes we come up with become effective.

I acknowledge that.

SCH wasn't RDM's backline replacement, both it and DNC were added to the game to allieviate the need for healer jobs and to help jobs such as RDM and SMN not get completely pidgeonholed into them. They aren't a 100% deterrant from RDM main heal - RDM will still be called upon to do it, but they exist to make things easier on the populace when a healer is needed.

All this is true. But read my post again:

Just look how Scholar is built: it is the perfect potential replacement to how Red Mage is played now.

If I can bare to read through your posts, you can surely bare to read through mine.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

Also: you claim Red Mage has no flaw.

You do us both a great disservice with such slanderous statements. =b

RDM has limitations--and, it should, as with any job. What I said was the strengths and weaknesses are well balanced. We all know there are plenty of things RDM can't do, just that what you think of as flaws I generally think of as "trade-offs", that's all.

And, I was ignoring all the stuff about Scholar, since it seemed mostly about making SCH more like RDM. I'd rather see Scholar made more useful in ways different than RDM, because, well, we already have the RDM.

RDM is working out well right now. What's the point of butchering it, only to make SCH takes its current place? If you think fixing the description is cheap, I say messing with large aspect of the game--the aspect which is working out OK right now--is plain stupid.

Take your RDM to 75. Experience all it can do. Gear it up to do what it does best. Then, push the boundaries. Like Avesta for soloing tough critters. Like Madrone (arkaine23) for intelligently squeezing every bit of DD possibility from the job and putting it in practice. Like Icemage making 20k+/hour meriting a precise and repeatable experience, every single time.

Do some of that, and then tell me if you feel like Red Mage is unbearably flawed or not.

* * *

You're still ignoring what myself and other RDMs currently can and do use their swords (and daggers) for, BTW. What's your excuse?

* * *

Although, I realize this immediately becomes a community problem: for any fix to be effective, the community has to be convinced that they want us to melee, rather than just sit there in the back line giving them Refresh/Haste. Unless a Red Mage at melee becomes desirable within the community, any such fixes we propose will only become obstacles, as we will still be restricted to the back line through it all.

Is this still about exp parties? I don't think sane RDMs want to melee HNMs and feed them TP for the little damage they do.

If it's about exp parties, I'll just say from my experience (on non-RDM jobs), a party usually doesn't care if a RDM is up front melee'ing, as long as all the mage aspect of the job's roles are covered. The reason why people advise RDMs not to melee is because the casting duty is heavy, and melee often becomes a distraction.

So, the mage aspect is more important to a typical exp party than the melee output of a RDM. Is that what you have trouble with? You want the two to be equal?

* * *

I didn't go meriting once in the last three weeks, but earned eight merit points on top of recapping exp from K.O.'s (Lv.2->3 on Wind accuracy, Lv.0->2 on Ice accuracy, and two MPs leftover) from Campaign, Limbus, sky runs, Assault, and plain old farming. That's 80k limit points, or 2k shy of going from Lv.73 to 75 in equivalent experience points, to put things in perspective. All without a single exp/merit party.

Exp/merit'ing doesn't have to be a big part of a RDM's overall game, at least once at Lv.75. Keep that in mind every time you find you find yourself chafing from lack of time to melee in parties; exp'ing really isn't where the game is at.

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

RDM has limitations--and, it should, as with any job. What I said was the strengths and weaknesses are well balanced. We all know there are plenty of things RDM can't do, just that what you think of as flaws I generally think of as "trade-offs", that's all.

Eh, flaws, trade-offs . . . they both meant the same thing to me. What I was getting at was that you thought that Red Mage's unwanted melee was supposed to serve as its own "trade-off," which didn't sit well with me.

A better way of stating what I did, then, would be "You claim that without sub-par melee, Red Mage will have no flaw."

You're still ignoring what myself and other RDMs currently can and do use their swords (and daggers) for, BTW. What's your excuse?

I use my Sword and Dagger every time I play FFXI. Why? A. I'm still quite low-leveled (), and B. {I'm playing solo right now.}*

* - And yes, I know exactly what that phrase means, and I intended every part of it.

So, the mage aspect is more important to a typical exp party than the melee output of a RDM. Is that what you have trouble with? You want the two to be equal?

Pretty much, yeah.

And, I was ignoring all the stuff about Scholar, since it seemed mostly about making SCH more like RDM. I'd rather see Scholar made more useful in ways different than RDM, because, well, we already have the RDM.

What I was going for was "Make Red Mage more like Red Mage and make Scholar like whatever the heck Red Mage was before."

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

From Elmer the Pointy's translation and the source of the "Magical Swordsmen" stuff.

Magic that will provide Red Mages more chances to fight with their sword. It won't have Red Mages constantly on the front lines of battle, but since we bothered to give them such prowess with the sword, we would like to see them used more as magical swordsmen.

I'd say they acknowledge how the community sees RDM.

kthxbye

[Yellow Mage]

Re: Refresh II

I don't deny that they acknowledge how the community sees RDM: that's the entire point behind giving Red Mages some new melee toys.

And, of course, a Red Mage that melees all the time should be no better (or worse) off than one who uses magic all the time. The point? Red Mage isn't supposed to do one single thing all the time. I take that translation as an acknowledgement of that, as well.

Now, can you please show me where they said that Red Mages being in the back line were crucial? All you've proven is that they know how the community views Red Mage which, as you and I have shown in and of itself, can be taken many different ways.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

I just showed you, but then, its just proof how selective a reader some RDMs may be. In that statement SE made, they acknowledged RDM isn't always welcomed as a melee and the update isn't meant to change them into a perpetual melee. If its not intended to turn them into constant melee, then you must concede they're aware the community doesn't always see them as a melee.

The community sees RDM as a backliner, just like they see NIN as a tank. Doesn't matter what the intention were for either or how you see the job, all that really matters is how the community sees it. SE might have intended CoP zones to be new EXP PT camps - it didn't take, we use them as wyrm camps and mission backdrops, not EXP PTs camps.

A lot of people have tried to make DNC into a tank, they thought it was "intended" then they got past the 50s and got drilled good to the point most of us now accept that it isn't a tank at all, just a passable low level one and a more useful as a tanking subjob. SE's intention was for it to be a supplementary healer and to make small groups and soloing more possible for melees. I just trioed my last level in Riverne Site #A01, the real intention has been met.

But it doesn't always end up that way. RDM is tagged as a supporter because that is the role the vast majority have allowed it to become. Few have the strength to fight pull of easy invites when they have essential skills a party needs. RDMs don't fight for what they want, they just expect to be given to them.

Not everyone gets what they want, not everything works to intention, but it is undeniable that what RDM has works well enough.

I find SEs desire to update RDM foolish in that its getting a lot of peoples hopes up. They're gonna be crushed when they realize that - much like THF, BST and DRG - even the most awesome changes will not change the way the community sees a job.