Refresh II

[Feba]

Re: Refresh II

I couldn't have said it better myself

of course not, have you seen that font? You couldn't say anything better if someone was all "PEOAPLSA SHUD B EQULS!" and you were like *recites I Have a Dream*

[Balfree]

Re: Refresh II

Should I lock lolol?

I see so much text i fear there might be some flaming or whatever in there but im not half bored to sit here reading all of it.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

Should I lock lolol?

I see so much text i fear there might be some flaming or whatever in there but im not half bored to sit here reading all of it.

They drove away all the other intelligent discussion several hours ago, so I don't see a problem.

[Feba]

Re: Refresh II

They drove away all the other intelligent discussion several hours ago, so I don't see a problem.

Dammit BBQ. I was in support of the idea, but knowing that not being able to get in the last word would annoy you to no end makes me conflicted.

[Malacite]

Re: Refresh II

>:O I have to say I resent that earlier comment about myself and YM >_>

But the others do have some what of a point; RDM's nuking ability really isn't comparable to BLM's by end game. C+ Skill, only 2/4 MAB traits and no Tier 4's really do leave something to be desired. That's why I suggested a 3rd MAB trait, to give them a bit of a boost to make nuking practical but without stepping on BLM or SCH's toes.

[Phanex]

Re: Refresh II

Meh, well BBQ's views on this matter is probably what 60-80% of the gamming community will be thinking. Not saying who's right or who's wrong, some people will rather have a /heal Pink Mage, and some wouldn't mind having a /dance Pink Mage.

The amount of mp used in most merit partys I've been in had been Null. Cure here, Haste there, Refresh me. No enfeebles required, not much MP usage. So a RDM/DNC could probley get away with it, where as in other situations a RDM/WHM with refresh gear and INT MND will be needed alot.

My whole thought on the situation is this.. Everyone agrees that the Race has nothing to do to determine what to pick. You want mithra, Go mithra, you want Taru, go Taru. Yet when it comes to jobs, those same people will go out of their way to say your not doing job the right way, your not wearing the right equipment.

If your argument is the amount of XP/hour vs. amount of MP/used/Hr, then wouldn't a Taru WHM/SMN be more appealing than Galka RDM/WHM? It all boils down to the player and the circumstances.

A lot of people play to play, other play for XP, others Play to start arguments and go against the grain. Use that motto most gay men use to try to get in your pants, "It dosn't hurt to try" ^^

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

>:O I have to say I resent that earlier comment about myself and YM >_>

What you had to say had much more weight than most of the newest entrants to the discussion, even if it was the usual romantic, decrepit BS about want RDM was "meant to be."

Doesn't matter what a job was meant to be, what matters is what its used for. DRG's Jumps are supposed to do x2 damage - they don't. THF isn't supposed to have Treasure Hunter, that was a Gambler triat. Samurai doesn't have Gil Toss. I could go on and on, but the online factor of the game influences how classic jobs are played. Doesn't matter what they did in other FFs, this is FFXI. FFX and FFXII didn't harbor much loyalty to the past, Final Fantasy - if its been about anything - has always been about reinvention.

But the others do have some what of a point; RDM's nuking ability really isn't comparable to BLM's by end game. C+ Skill, only 2/4 MAB traits and no Tier 4's really do leave something to be desired. That's why I suggested a 3rd MAB trait, to give them a bit of a boost to make nuking practical but without stepping on BLM or SCH's toes.

Here's where they're wrong - RDMs didn't just freely nuke back about three years ago, we nuked on MBs and those nukes were efficiently used and added more signifigantly to the damage pool than straight out melee or enspells did. What's more is we now have a subjob that raises that C+ to a B - Scholar.

The problem now? We have RDMs are weak-willed and will take fast EXP over party mechanics, too. People like MrMageo see the inability to enfeeble a colibri as liberating instead of what it actually is - problematic. Anyone who really played RDM to potential prior to ToA or still takes RDMs to other types of camps knows the importance of the role backline and knows there's quite a bit more to do in that situation than there is for RDM now.

These RDMs want to piss and moan about the fact that thier melee isn't accepted and will seek out any attempt to find an excuse to use it, yet they refuse to listen to what SE is encouraging these days, things like making smaller PTs so you can do what you thought the job was "meant" to do, but the community frowns on. I don't give a damn if its slower EXP, it works and works well - if you want RDM melee, stop taking the easy invites and try something that requires a bit more work.

But the community isn't wrong for frowning on it, either, its been well established that against VT and IT++ mobs that RDM just isn't as effective as thier other roles.

Biggest fallacy of MrMageo's is that he thinks "PT accepts me as RDM/X, therefore, RDM/X is good." If I applied this logic to any other non-support class, I'd get roasted by others almost right away. People don't invite others to PUGs just to be experimented with, we invited them to play a standardized version of thier job. Save your experiments for your own time, what's preferred by the vast majority is preferred for a reason - it works.

Thier $64.75 > Your $12.95.

[Coinspinner]

Re: Refresh II

BBQ beat me to the punch, but it's RDM/SCH for nuking now, not RDM/BLM. Further, if RDM can't nuke then neither can SCH. We allow SCH to nuke and say they are "fairly good at it." If your RDM isn't using the proper gear and sub for the task at hand then of course it's effectiveness will be lacking... apart from things that are static like Haste, Refresh and Cure.

>:O I have to say I resent that earlier comment about myself and YM >_>

But the others do have some what of a point; RDM's nuking ability really isn't comparable to BLM's by end game. C+ Skill, only 2/4 MAB traits and no Tier 4's really do leave something to be desired. That's why I suggested a 3rd MAB trait, to give them a bit of a boost to make nuking practical but without stepping on BLM or SCH's toes.

SCH can't even get 2/4 MAB traits without subbing BLM, and potentially has less Elemental skill than RDM, so it would step on their toes just a bit.

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

Thier $64.75 > Your $12.95.

That is Debateable.

BBQ, again you start with non-topic chit chat about this and that. FACT ToA PT's outnumber RZ/CoP parties 5-1 or more. Your continual hammering away about camping in ToA areas causing RDM to become lazy however is true. I leveled 70-75 in bibiki bay on gobs and giraffes. I acctualy preferred it over a colbri party because i was able to do something. Like enfeebling and MB'ing. (also if you are going to imply MB'ing, come out and say it instead of nuking causes some confussion). So instead of being a cop out typical RDM/WHM, i decided to make something where i was acctually contributing more to a party out side of cure X, and haste. I hate ToA it absolutley 100% ruined pt dynamics. (hopefully this emeror band may make RZ/CoP areas appealling again.) So, if you are lucky enough to find a party outside of ToA congratulations, but the consensus is EXP/HR needs to be fast as possible. In which case Colbri camp wins hands down. Its not bitching and moaning on my part to melee i can happily merit rdm/lm or rdm/brd with the blm's and puddings. I sub dancer because it gives me something to do. I ddnt say it is the endall be all subs, I like it and have fun with it and it dosent change XP/hr rate from /whm so in my eyes it works fine. But you wouldnt know how it works because you havent done it. My point is ToA is what is in 5-1 on pt's, so if you cant beat them join them, at least try to enjoy it.

[Akashimo]

Re: Refresh II

Sky camp. Only way I'll ever merit rdm again. Hell, I don't see how the other rdms in my hnmls can even get the guts to merit these days given the whole curing roles.

Last ls meripo with my mnk, mnk/war x2, nin/war, brd, cor (who left and we invited a bst from the ls), and rdm/whm. Given the fact that the rdm just started playing again and was a previous member, I was impressed he was able to keep some mp before converting seeing how the other mnk was the tank of the party, unless I opened with a 1k asuran. Still, its crazy just being able to keep any mp up to chain 43 before actually needing to stop. All the same, having the cor/whm really helped on his cure load compared to our brd whom I've loathe to be around.

Rdm's merit problem isn't exactly the way we merit, its the fact our own potentional for mp that allows us to merit that way. Refresh alone is not the problem. Take away convert and people would think twice how they make thier parties and where to take it instead of colibri, colibri, colibri.

I could live without convert. Just means playing smarter with mp like on whm. Level up scholar to sub and I might start meriting on rdm, but only if we don't have convert anymore.

Plus I really love hearing on vent how they want someone who has brd in the ls to be 'theirs' in order to merit. The two princess jobs, with out those people are scared like kittens to merit. I'm not exactly saying do something about brd, but I am implying something needs to be done on how it works in merit parties to convince people to change out of this horrible habbit.

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

Trying not to fan the flames in here again BBQ did you acctually read my post on pg.15? about the numbers side of DNC

I dont like talking to you about things, you have a bad habbit of skipping over the details most of the time. Most often i imagine so you can be

"In before [reason]"

Im not putting this up for debate, it is a fact rdm/dnc works in the environment i tested it in. The community can take this however they want. But i did the same thing as RDM/BLU everyone said i was an idiot, well its now one of our premier solo jobs. I look around and the nly other RDM/DNC forum is one i wrote 2 months ago. Now you'll probably say because the community knws its junk. A mute point, you said a couple pages back you wanted a meaningful debate., I laid out the facts and you walked right over them. I am not debating a RDM/DNC vs RDM/WHM, /BLM at XXX camp in RZ/CoP. I am debating the RDM/WHM vs /DNC @ Colbri party so please stay on topic. Please read post 225, come back and have real discussion about that not "if" "when" and other variables it was a controled test in a ToA camp so that is what camp we will talk about. (Unless you cant because your RDM cant party there or something.)

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

That is Debateable.

I'm afriad it is not, the reason people are so insistant on how you play in EXP PTs is because they want the best amount of EXP in the shortest amount of time to get thier money's worth from the game.

Seeing as they have $64.75 riding against your $12.95 and time is money, they win. If you don't like that, go find some like-minded people who are willing to play your way and don't seek pick-up parties.

BBQ, again you start with non-topic chit chat about this and that. FACT ToA PT's outnumber RZ/CoP parties 5-1 or more. Your continual hammering away about camping in ToA areas causing RDM to become lazy however is true. I leveled 70-75 in bibiki bay on gobs and giraffes. I acctualy preferred it over a colbri party because i was able to do something. Like enfeebling and MB'ing. (also if you are going to imply MB'ing, come out and say it instead of nuking causes some confussion). So instead of being a cop out typical RDM/WHM, i decided to make something where i was acctually contributing more to a party out side of cure X, and haste. I hate ToA it absolutley 100% ruined pt dynamics. (hopefully this emeror band may make RZ/CoP areas appealling again.) So, if you are lucky enough to find a party outside of ToA congratulations, but the consensus is EXP/HR needs to be fast as possible. In which case Colbri camp wins hands down. Its not bitching and moaning on my part to melee i can happily merit rdm/lm or rdm/brd with the blm's and puddings. I sub dancer because it gives me something to do. I ddnt say it is the endall be all subs, I like it and have fun with it and it dosent change XP/hr rate from /whm so in my eyes it works fine. But you wouldnt know how it works because you havent done it. My point is ToA is what is in 5-1 on pt's, so if you cant beat them join them, at least try to enjoy it.

I love how pointing out the facts is somehow irrelevant to you,

You don't have the right to complain about the state of RDM's desired role in merit PTs when you conform to those trends. You either give up the faster EXP to play how you want or shut up and conform to get faster EXP.

Its as simple as that.

[Pteryx]

Re: Refresh II

- [Job design]: Should RDM's melee'ing be "helpful" in more situations in general, and in 6/6 exp parties, specifically?
- [Job design]: If the answer to above is an "Yes", then the question becomes: How to best go about achieving that?

For the job design side, I think it's safe to say S-E wants to see RDM melee more, but most likely in the small group setting instead of 6/6 exp parties. It'd be very unlikely for them to implement changes to Refresh for that, the title concern of this thread.

My opinion is that yes, RDM melee should be more helpful in more situations. Should that include 6/6 XP parties? Maybe, sometimes -- but the only way I can see that working without overpowering RDM's melee damage output would be through Enstatuses that are balanced in such a way that they're a better way to deliver enfeebles against magic-resistant targets. I talk about this a bit in this thread: http://www.ffxionline.com/forums/rac...ish-lists.html

- [Player Community]: If it's more efficient (in terms of exp/hour) as a best practice to have a RDM as a back line job, is it right to ask RDMs not to melee?
- [Player Community]: If the answer to the previous question is "No", then what limitation can and should the community in general (and the RDM's party in particular) place on the RDM who wants to melee up front?

For the player community, I side along with the "Do what is the most efficient!"--but keeping in mind that what's "efficient" is situational. For example, if enfeebs greatly helps keep a monster from K.O.'ing a party member, I'd say that's supremely efficient, since nothing kills exp/hour faster than waiting for weakness to wear off.

The trouble here, essentially, is this: what's most efficient isn't situational enough. The most efficient XP/hour in the game is meleeburning imps, hands down. That, IMO, is a problem. Ideas from this setup even inappropriately bleed into other types and levels of parties -- thus, you have 36- BLMs who can't get invites, lack of skillchaining that isn't self-skillchaining, and so on.

There should definitely be lots of times when RDM should stand back and slip staves in and out of that long invisible leather golf bag all mages have. I had a good deal of fun with CoP-era backline RDM. The trouble is when one of the game's most versatile jobs is stuck doing one and only one thing, as is happening in meripo now.

Concerning the issue of RDM nuking... yes, our nukes suck. They take too long to cast and too much MP for what you usually get, given that what you usually get is a resist and unlike SCH, we have half a dozen better ways to spend our time and MP. That being said, I feel a third MAB trait would step on SCH, seeing as they get exactly zero natively -- not to mention, RDM has never been about raw power in any FF game, this one included. Instead, I'm in favor of Magic Accuracy Bonus traits. While our nukes would not become strong this way, they would become reliable enough to bother with more often -- and if we really need to nuke better than that, there'd always be /SCH. Such a trait would have other effects I find desirable as well. -- Pteryx

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

Concerning the issue of RDM nuking... yes, our nukes suck. They take too long to cast and too much MP for what you usually get, given that what you usually get is a resist and unlike SCH, we have half a dozen better ways to spend our time and MP. That being said, I feel a third MAB trait would step on SCH, seeing as they get exactly zero natively -- not to mention, RDM has never been about raw power in any FF game, this one included. Instead, I'm in favor of Magic Accuracy Bonus traits. While our nukes would not become strong this way, they would become reliable enough to bother with more often -- and if we really need to nuke better than that, there'd always be /SCH. Such a trait would have other effects I find desirable as well.

Yes i would agree a magic ACC boost instead of resist petrify would help us greatly, or even a accuracy boost/and mac boost covering both sides of the RDM world. Dont forget its not all spell casting and both of these traits will effectivley boost out melee capabilities.

I love how pointing out the facts is somehow irrelevant to you,

Please Read Post 225 on pg. 15 you will find your facts/numbers/details there

You don't have the right to complain about the state of RDM's desired role in merit PTs when you conform to those trends. You either give up the faster EXP to play how you want or shut up and conform to get faster EXP.

I reserve the right to do anything i want when i get charged to play each month. I have conformed to the RDM merit system, I have also taken new steps so i can preform equally as well on the front line. I dont need to give up faster XP i get 12-20K/ hr depending on PT setup to play how i want i simply change backline RDM meriting to frontline RDM meriting with the same outcome so its not broken it does work and no conformity is necassary.

I was hoping to avoid more non-topic specific post but because of BBQ continuing to derail this topic more and more, and my "Non-existant facts" are burried i am going to wrap things up by saying,

BBQ- You are the one has no reason to debate RDM in merit parties, you have never done it, nor do you have the desire too. You play BRD and COR which are vastly different then RDM in a meripo. You are the one who needs to understand game physics. I have outlined them, Party areas, XP parties, DNC details, yet you continually try to dispute me with jiberish that has no bearing on what im talking about. Your head is shoved so far up your cookie cutter ass like 75% of the rest of the community, to listen to facts. If its not how we played for the last 2 years it must be wrong.

Regardless of how much you try to derail this Post and bury the information i know my RDM/DNC works and contrary to your conformist belief other know about it too. If you dont have anything constructive to say about RDM why post on RDM forum. Nothing in your last 6-7 post bears any constructive argument. Yes we all know RDM/WHM is the preferred set up, yes we all know we are the "King" of enfeebles, But we are still the king of enfeebles without /whm and anything we lose we gain with /dnc . Your age old rhetoric of lolrdm melee counter points is null and void. The expansive amounts of equipment allow us to change our roles easily.

But you consistently claim MP/INT/MND equip is better. In some instances yess, But M.ACC,MAB,MDB has its place as well or did you forget about that. Of course being a lvl 65 you dont really have a solid view on endgame RDM, Merits are your friend, i dont need staves to stick enfeebles on sky NM's nor do i need them to stick on HNM's.

So Until you get to 75 and merit RDM please sit off to the sidelines about stuff i talk about. You can feel free to input on things such as wish lists or up to LVL 65 discussions, but dont debate me on meripos because you dont know it. Your inaccuracies about NUKES/ENFEEBS ina meripo are more then enough proof. Your constant bickering over RZ/CoP partying is redundant. You tell me to sut up and conform, so you shut up and conform to colbri parties, because thats all you get or Manaburns.

You are a flame poster, i ahve gone to many of your other topics over the last day or so and in every instance i found you were flaming someone else because they had done something you couldnt or dont believe in. Im sure youd flame someone if they solo'd x HNM in a way thats never been done before. I can see you being the one who is "In before RDM/NIN" , following it up with if you did this this this and this you might not need to do all those thing you did. Fact is RDM/DNC is an easier and more effective way to Meripo then RDM/WHM, i am whm lvl 30 and lack erase and reraise so i do know what im talking about.

Im done bantering with you over petty shit such as 5 peoples money > 1, because that is wrong my money is greater to me than 100 peoples combined. Party locations, ToA is preferred location so shut up and conform. /WHM vs /DNC, perhaps in your lvl range /WHM is better IMPS spam amnesia rendering /dnc useless, colbri dont. Get my point. XP/HR, you want fast xp but ou want to lvl RDM in 3-5 man groups, or RZ/CoP areas, your the one who is backwards.

You stopped leveling your RDM in IMP parties because you hated the fact you had no time to enfeeble or nuke the mob outside of silence/dia/dispel.I garuntee it. You quit because you saw wow this sucks not casting anything but Silena and cure on people glad im the only mage on the backline. Guess what it dosent change all the way to 75 unles you build our own group with a whm or sch/whm, or find a way around it like /DNC. You are a quitter, i bet you lvl'd rdm because you liked your invite rate and heard it was always needed in meripo's, i assume this because you lvl'd BRD and COR. That being said you are one of the RDM's who slacks and makes refresh look bad, you bank on the fact you have refresh for party invites instead of skill or work.

"I may level RDM again so there is at least one more that is not Shit." So because i /DNC in a colbri meripo i am shit, because i solo ZIP,DESPOT,KRUETZET,CHARYBDIS,BUNE,SIMURGH, RDM,SAM,DRK,BLM,WHM AF NM's i am shit, id love to see your BRD solo any of them or your COR,RNG for that matter, Id love to see you solo any of those RDM/WHM. I have done all but Charyb Bune, Zip /BLM so dont give me shit that /BLM is lol. You are a fan boy RDM you think you know it all from reading and watching a video, hell your not even a fan boy your a pathetic excuse for a RDM.

And I'm Done BBQ you are a waste of skin,

Before you try to whine back at me for being right

Cry a river, Build a Bridge, and get over it.


As for the OP Refresh 2 = Bad, Enspell Damage Increase = Good, MACC is good, MP<>TP is good.

Im done with this thread 40 post of nothing but a pathetic excuse of a RDM who know nothin about endgame is telling me i am wrong.

Thanks Bye

[Murphie]

Re: Refresh II

I vote for a lock, personally.