Refresh II

[Vyuru]

Re: Refresh II

With BRD in party as RDM/DNC we get 15-20K
with 5x DD we get 12-15K

THAT is the reason you are getting the extra exp/hour right there you know....

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

yep thats why i put it like that, its the same as if i where rdm/whm /blm

which is why BRD is best meripo support job. Ive had partoes cancel because of no brd's seeking never because of no rdm

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

Ok so you are a 65 RDM what merit do you have to tell me or talk to me about what RDM can and can not do in merit parties or other certain endgame instances. You are exactly the kind of person i dislike, you pigeon hole from the other jobs. You sit back and say i saw RDM so and so do this and the other players say the same thing. Until you level the Job and go /dnc you have absolutely no insight to this conversation, except age old rhetoric that it cant work. Moving on.

Oh please, you really think that not having RDM at 75 - meanwhile having BRD, COR and RNG at 75 - doesn't give me just a bit of insight? There's nothing you're learning that massively changes the dynamics of the job aside from Utsusemi Ni and Stun under sub. Please tell me what sage secrets the job holds for me in those last 10 levels.

OK, you think RDM/DNC is such a tremendous asset. Tell me, how do you keep room for MP/INT/MND/MAB/CHR and Accuracy/DEX/STR/Attack gear all on one job? With Refresh, Haste, enfeebles, how do you even get 100% a fight, even with a joyeuse? RDM is a pretty casting-dedicated class.

But wait, I bet you're gonna tell me about some colibri, right?

Colibri, Colibri, Colibri.

Its all people seem to know anymore.

I might actually be bothered to level RDM were LoLbri not the prime source of EXP these days. You see, I see RDM as the "king" of enfeebling. If I can't enfeeble, the job isn't fun and I don't just want to settle for Quickstep, Box Step and Desparate Flourish.

But rather than complain about that situation, I've moved on to other jobs and, quite frankly, gotten what I needed from them. My RDM wasn't a compelte wash, I can still use it as a sub for SCH or BLM if I so desire. Its not the only job I've bided my time with, DRG and BST are right there along with it. They've seen more favorable conditions to play them the way I'd like to, so I happily play those jobs.

I see no huge reason to go back to it and definately have nothing to prove to some chump that skips levelling all the proper subjobs and subs /DNC for a petty excuse not to backline.

But were I to play RDM again, I'd run circles around yours. I haven't forgotten how to play it and sure as hell don't cut corners like you do. Thing is, I mangage two characters so I don't have the time for that. Plus both characters have jobs that get merits faster - that wasn't by design, but it worked out well anyway. I prefer the rarity to being common and don't piss and moan about the role I'm invited to fill.

You still haven't addressed my "inconsistancies," but I didn't expect you to. Playing the "level of experience" card on YM was practical because he hasn't experienced the true shift and demands in the RDM role, nor has he experienced PTs. However, I have experienced the change. Hell, I had a completely different experience from RDMs of today. You don't even nuke or enfeeble your LoLibri

I've seen 30k in an hour with BRD/COR/RDM/PLD/WARx2 and the RDM never even touched the mob and never converted. He always refreshed himself, too. Like hell you don't need refresh, its why he never had to convert - he was getting three layers of it. Granted the PT was an endgame LS with relics and Ridills, but those slugshots were nothing to sneeze at, either. 25k an hour isn't hard w/o all that great gear if you're coordinated.

You're playing with a sub that tells you to hold back that TP instead of blow it and tells you to favor melee gear over mage gear. So ultimately, you're just TPing for cures and weakening your potential as an nuker and enfeebler - that's why you're not breaking 20k an hour. Really, 15k-20 an hour is something anyone here can get. Can you get 10k in 20 minutes or less? That's a bit more tricky, but possible.

Now, if I were to go COR/DNC - no conflicts in gear there. Its the same gear I use as COR/RNG pretty much, changing perhaps three gear slots. And thanks to all that accuracy and haste gear, I don't have to worry about blowing my TP for WS - I can get it back quickly. No spells to get in my way.

PUP/DNC, SAM/DNC, PLD/DNC, NIN/DNC - see a patter here, most of these jobs gear for accuracy and damage - DNC does not conflict with that at all. This is why they work DNC doesn't work for RDM the same reason its a problem for WHM, BLU, BLM or BRD - casting spells eats up time they could have to TP.

RDM/DNC works when casting is less of an obligation - i.e. a smaller PT. In PTs of six, I just can't see it do much but hold the PT back.

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

OK, you think RDM/DNC is such a tremendous asset. Tell me, how do you keep room for MP/INT/MND/MAB/CHR and Accuracy/DEX/STR/Attack gear all on one job? With Refresh, Haste, enfeebles, how do you even get 100% a fight, even with a joyeuse? RDM is a pretty casting-dedicated class.

Easy leave the unnessacary gear in you MH, if your going to be a rdm/dnc your not comming to backline, if you do this in colbri parties your not casting on the mob outside of dia or sleep, so leave all but pluto staff, you wont require mp, int, mnd accessories leave them in the MH. Staff grips not needed. AF is fine gear to use as it makes up for the lost INT/MND/MP gear. MP gear is only good at max MP anyhow.

Read my original rdm/dnc post again you will clearly see i said to combine rdm and dnc not do 1 or the other you get 100% TP by using your mage skills while you build it (200% is ample) you refresh MP while spending TP its pretty simple

But were I to play RDM again, I'd run circles around yours. I haven't forgotten how to play it and sure as hell don't cut corners like you do.

I seriously doubt that you want to nuke/enfeeble/heal/buff you will be out of mp before chain 20 thus killing XP. It is not cutting corners it is being efficient, which is the #1 thing in our endgame, being efficent with MP, and i dont mean saving enough for a cure before convert i mean keeping a few hundred reserve MP.

ex. Your fighting a God, whm is almost out of MP BLM hasnt enough for stun PLD tank is being beaten down, you have 75 MP left and convert is 2 minutes away. Boy you shouldnt have casted those nukes. So what do you do Refresh yourself you have 35 MP left now what wait?. cure the PLD your down to 31, refresh the WHM or BLM. and while your thinking of what to do you will lose more time. you froze PLD is dead and your still at 75 MP your BLM is being hunted down, what do you do know. see my point

myself i set my "0" at 250 (i am a taru and have 900ish mp) if i spendMP to bellow 250 ive spent to much and need to rework something.

In the above example i have sufficent MP to CURE 4 the tank and refresh myself the whm and blm crisis avoided, and the circle you just ran around me ran into a corner.

RDM nuking is alot like meleeing nothing to look at but worth something in the end
lets compare shall we.

Nuke teir 3 100-130 MP depending on the nuke
avg dmg 180-600
MB "extremley rare" possible 800 damage from thunder or blizzard

Melee
12 mp for enspell
consistent damage- crit hit
weaponskill >>> skill chain

Unless you are casting back to back nukes you will out damage you highest teir realativley fast. You severley drain your MP for the amount of damage you do, which makes nuking not worth it.

Colibri, Colibri, Colibri.

Its all people seem to know anymore.

Yes it is because it is the fastest way to merit, you find me another camp where i can get chain 200 and 15-20K+ /hr (assumed BRD party). You keep talking about me gimping the xp/hr ratio in a party, Yet your ready to go to a camp full of IT++ to get a chain 7-10 and crap XP just so you can feel important and enfeeble/nuke a mob. Well guess what youll still end up being main heal there and you wont be able to afford casting enfeebles out side of dia let alone nukes. If you want to enfeeble go to SKY/SEA/DYNA and cast them there where it will be more MP efficient. I think people would rather party with the rdm/dnc in nyzul, then a RDM/WHM in the tavanzain region (where most people cant get to anyhow unless they have done promies). lolbri camps as you put it are the fastest source of XP and saying /dnc kills that (which is BS) and being told your wrong, then following it up with an idea to move camps is hypocritcal of you.
Fast XP = Colbri Camp
Enfeeb/Nuke = Slow XP

you cant have both BBQ with 3 75's 2 of which are support you should know this

You don't even nuke or enfeeble your LoLibri

No i dont and you know why because its an inefficient use of MP in a merit party 130 MP for a very inconsistent rdm nuke. (Only using blizzard 3 as thunder 3 is worse). Ya ill do that instead of having that MP at the bottom of my pool for a refresh or life saving situation (see above ex.). Enfeebling is not a efficent use of MP either since the mob dies so quick they dont get any real effect excpet for maybe Dia outside of that your wasting your time. The real kicker is with all this casting you want to do, you get to follow up with a cure or erase when said colbri decides to cast the spell back at you or at another pt member. Good method for MP conservation and way to kill you xp/hr i firmly beleive a resting rdm is a poor rdm if i need to /heal during battle then i am doing something wrong or the party setup is wrong.

BBQ talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, you dont know RDM, until you get to 75 RDM i will consider anything you say to be redundant. Unless its on the topic of your other jobs which i know nothing about. Telling me you can run circles around me, that i cut corners is a cop out. You are one of the RDM's who evidently rides the convert timer hard. Guess what you dont need to convert every 10 Minutes. You are still a rookie RDM im glad you came out to tell me how to do the job i have studied for 5 years. I have 1 75 RDM because i am dedicated to it, im dedicated to tweaking every thing i can get out of it in everyway. I have spent 4 months working an effective strategy to using /DNC i dont just hop on a job and go weee, i learned from mistakes, ive gimped xp, ive been booted from parties. But you know what i have tweaked rdm/dnc where it can party on par with rdm/whm. But you wouldnt know that you see someone post something you dont believe in and think they are wrong, they suck at their job, they suck at life orz. You know what i have dealt with this before after the ToAU release, i was chastised for saying rdm/blu would be a great solo job, look at it now one of rdm's premier sub jobs i wasnt wrong then and im not wrong now. If you put a little effort into something you can see if its right or wrong. I used to think /dnc was lol but thats because i was doing it wrong. Infact i was doing it "your way" BBQ and it was full of fail, so i gave up on it. Until i thought about MP>TP TP>MP after reading a post about a spell for it on alla a few months back.

Thinking its no factor in not being a RDM75 is as simple minded as it comes, until you experience the situation we are discussing first hand leave the convo to the big boys and wait your turn.

Lastly what inconsistencies, if your acctually intrested in learning about the job combo id happily answer questions but if you are going to continually counter everything i say witth [random] comment from 2 years ago i will continue to tell you why your wrong and why i am right.
______________________________

RDM can effectivley melee it is not a DD comparing it to a DD is fruitless RDM dont melee to be DD and shouldnt. A RDM preforms melee by doing small numbers over a period of time we are endurance jobs not sprinters. Understanding this is the first and foremost to having any viable conception into melee. There is 1 job we may catch in a parse and that is NIN

Id like to correct this i meant to put PLD not NIN, probably some confusion caused i appologize.
______________________________
Also on the original topic of refresh 2, or another added spell to make rdm more melee friendly would be said ability revised

original ability was to cast a spell that granted a TP refresh of 3 a tick

i think a more reasonable effect would be to give RDM and job ability with oh maybe a 2-3 minute cool down that converts 100MP to TP allowing us to WS a mob as a SC opener.

The other side of the coin would be a counter ability on the same cool down that allows a rdm to take 100TP and convert it MP.

This would not over power melee or undercut spellcasting. It would give us a reason to whack a few mobs for the sake of MP.

SAM would also become a RDM"S best friend in terms of MP conservation by donating some TP so the RDM can Convert it into MP if needed.

Personally i dont think this ability combo would greatly affect the job as it stands right now, and would be good for both sides of the arguement.

[Krut]

Re: Refresh II

My RDM is 65 and is most likely staying there unless I get enough compatible gear from levelling SCH gathered around. I hardly ever used /WHM back when I did level it, but I had it ready, I didn't refuse its utility. /BLM was just more accepted at the time because I levelled it in the RoZ/CoP era - back when RDMs were too busy enfeebling/hasting/refreshing and magic bursting to care about meleeing.

I lol'd
BBQ is in a discussion about a job he has no intrest, nor drive to level lol

ok i was gonna take the backseat and just watch this interesting debate till i saw this (im still laughing this is pretty funny to me)

OK

You're sitting here, in a RDM forum, telling a level 75RDM how he should act in a meripo(if this isnt strange enough for the rest of you, im not done)

You have your 75BRD and your 75COR, that's cool, 2 jobs which rely nothing on MP and you are telling a RDM that he is being inefficent with his MP something you have no experiance with(still not done)

You've got your end game head shoved up your end game arse so far i'm surprised you even heard about the wotg release! Many players on my server and I have come to think that dancer is the answer to ninja and red mage prayers of a way to make their jobs more effective.

Take a look at a simple example here, TP move Curing Waltz is a pretty quick curaga no? and how much MP does that cost, same amount as all those songs and rolls you came in here with, a brd/cor/brd in a red mage disquise! If it's really about MP, and effieciency with said MP then what the heck are you doing in a forum discussion on a topic about which you have no 1st hand experiance my friend?

If you want to sit on the back line and be an effective enough RDM then do it up, but if you are like me and many others who were standing in the back line pre-wotg with a staff stapled into the Main slot wondering why i had a B in sword and dagger and a NOTHING in staff and then saw dancer and went, OOOOHHH i seeeeeeee, then you will find that /dnc can be a very effective way to make yourself even MORE versitile than before

By no means do i say meleeing should come before other important duties like enfeeb/enhancing/sleeping and all that jazz, it takes some practise but with some effort and some time you might find this can be a very wonderful way to take RDM to the next level.

Oh and if you have an opinion on something, don't start chirping somone who has tried it without first hand experiance, it makes me laugh at you, other symptoms include the sudden appearances of roflcopters and peed pants. KTHXBAI!

[Luna]

Re: Refresh II

To all the people who think RDM can nuke, quit the job while you still think that, I will let you in on a little secret RDM CANNOT AND NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO NUKE IT IS JUST A WASTE OF YOUR MP! ok sorry for caps lol just wanted to make that clear. Oh and dont even bring up /blm pfft..............please lol

If you are a lvl 75RDM and you do nuke.... by all means next time ask the BLM in your party how well your doing at dd'ing see what they have to say, for that matter ask the SCH standing next to you as well.... both those jobs are further ahead at nuking and not actually getting a resist than RDM is, its better to just not even think about that, your mp is way more importan in enfeebling as well as Curing ppl in the alliance/party also dont forget haste and refresh!

P.S. Just so I dont get flamed for this =) I have lvled RDM (only took it to 64 mind you) but I have enough FFXI exp to know this lol not to mention there are a fair share of RDM's in my endgame LS that would probably laugh at the person who thinks RDM can nuke...... its sad but even the ones I know admitt that RDM cant 20 dmg on a T3 ftw? w

[Krut]

Re: Refresh II

RDM CANNOT AND NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO NUKE IT IS JUST A WASTE OF YOUR MP!

QFT

I couldn't have said it better myself

Black Mage obviously leads the race in nukes but even /blm... personally I would rather see you Dotting that monster because that way we both know you are going to do your share of the damage.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Refresh II

So much ignorance in the last few posts I don't know where to begin.

I know, I'll save myself some time and not begin, I'll just be content with the fact that this was an intelligent discussion until MrMageo showed up. Yes, even everything Yellow Mage and Malacite said rates above this pap from the lolToARDMs that just posted.

At any rate, you may have inspired me to take up RDM again, if only to make sure there's one more out there that isn't shit at the job.

[Luna]

Re: Refresh II

So much ignorance in the last few posts I don't know where to begin.

I know, I'll save myself some time and not begin, I'll just be content with the fact that this was an intelligent discussion until MrMageo showed up. Yes, even everything Yellow Mage and Malacite said rates above this pap from the lolToARDMs that just posted.

At any rate, you may have inspired me to take up RDM again, if only to make sure there's one more out there that isn't shit at the job.

Its so awesome you realize that you wouldn't be able to win this debate =) very smart of you!

[Krut]

Re: Refresh II

At any rate, you may have inspired me to take up RDM again, if only to make sure there's one more out there that isn't shit at the job.

Do you do stand up? If so let me know when you are in a club in Canada you are pretty funny, my favorite part was how we are the ignorant ones when you are the cor+brd posting on the rdm forums like you know the job up and down.

Does anyone else find this guy hilarious? Personally I think he's just pulling our legs, can anyone really be so convinced that they know how the job works from watching other people play and hearing stories and fairy tales of how XXX soloed ZZZ at YYY or what John Doe did in that party with Mike the plumber.

I hope you do level rdm to 75, so when you stand there telling all the other rdm 75's how they are supposed to be playing their job they will laugh at you. A good Red Mage KNOWS he is the most versitle and flexible job in the game and does his/her very best to be as good as s/he can possibly be in EVERY situation.

Until you start trying to be the best Red Mage you can POSSIBLY be, stop telling everyone else how they are supposed to do a job you've barely even looked at for 2 expansion packs.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Refresh II

Several issues seem to have gotten all mixed up together:
- [Job design]: Should RDM's melee'ing be "helpful" in more situations in general, and in 6/6 exp parties, specifically?
- [Job design]: If the answer to above is an "Yes", then the question becomes: How to best go about achieving that?
- [Player Community]: If it's more efficient (in terms of exp/hour) as a best practice to have a RDM as a back line job, is it right to ask RDMs not to melee?
- [Player Community]: If the answer to the previous question is "No", then what limitation can and should the community in general (and the RDM's party in particular) place on the RDM who wants to melee up front?

For the player community, I side along with the "Do what is the most efficient!"--but keeping in mind that what's "efficient" is situational. For example, if enfeebs greatly helps keep a monster from K.O.'ing a party member, I'd say that's supremely efficient, since nothing kills exp/hour faster than waiting for weakness to wear off.

For the job design side, I think it's safe to say S-E wants to see RDM melee more, but most likely in the small group setting instead of 6/6 exp parties. It'd be very unlikely for them to implement changes to Refresh for that, the title concern of this thread.

* * *

I'm happy some people find RDM/DNC working well in some edge cases--but the amount of flames burning on that branch of the thread alone was staggering. Personally, I believe everyone who posted in this thread cares about Red Mage as a job. Please at least respect that, no matter whose opinion you disagree with.

So, tone down the personal insults? Pretty please?

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

To all the people who think RDM can nuke, quit the job while you still think that, I will let you in on a little secret RDM CANNOT AND NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO NUKE IT IS JUST A WASTE OF YOUR MP! ok sorry for caps lol just wanted to make that clear. Oh and dont even bring up /blm pfft..............please lol

Exactly my point, a rdm who uses nukes is not a RDM and they are a poor excuse of it if they claim to be. (PT situation only) like i described above a meleeing RDM will quickly out do the damage of a nuking rdm at the cost of a meer 12TP, its not up for arguemet it is a fact. If im resisted on a nuke what good is my 120-130 mp spent on it.

However RDM Nukes are not all bed ive taken down some NM's sleep/nuke kite/nuke very effectivley but this is a solo situation and has no real merit in this discussion.

/BLM is rdm sub thats full of win, it is the only subjob that gives us access to any aditional enfeebling skills, conserve MP, warp, escape, drain and aspir are nothing to scoff at. Chainspelling aspir is a great way to restore MP while hindering a mob, used this many times against NM's as well as xp mobs.

/whm is the only subjob that seems to be a real loss to rdm, it offers little in terms of endgame support outside of meripo which is why mine is still lvl 30. erase is the only spell that assists the party in anyway

Not trying to ride the melee train on this forum im just saying many people over look the aspects of rdm melee. The general consensus of melee is to deal large damage as BBQ said a few posts back. This is wrong Melee is to engage an enemy in close combat. DD is damage dealing

for sake of arguement

DD jobs are
BLU, DRK, SAM, NIN, THF, DRG, RNG, (COR/RNG), BLM, SCH(darkarts), MNK, WAR
SMN

Melee jobs are
DNC,PLD,RDM,PUP,

Support jobs are

WHM,BRD,RDM,COR,SMN


Notice how some of them roll into other categories, SMN is a damn fine DD if it didnt get stuck main healing. (SMN/BLM can land some very nice Teir 4's) COR/RNG is a great DD with slug shot, while maintaining a great party support role with lightshot and rolls for instance. RDM is a great Melee in terms of damage over time from enspells, but like summoner its not able to do this because of some unwritten rule it can only main heal. WHM BRD dont really fit into any other category and are true party support jobs. BLM dosent fit into any other role because a BLM using cure is wasting his MP, Nuking MOB is what it does it does not main heal or need to back up heal it is there to nuke.

Im tired of the whole RDM melee thing thats been going on for so long. The original excuse was no one levels WHM so RDM gets picked, now its No one lvls WHM because RDM gets picked. The guides throught the internet focus on healing partys not all rdm aspects. So rdm's in partys take it on them selves to cure everyone and do everything because thats how they understand the job. If more people took the time to play the Job to its peak ability there will be less bitching and moaning from both sides of the fence.

Thats not to say there are times when a rdm shouldnt melee, but in the end hitting for 0 still makes enspells pop, for no tp gain from the monster, so eerything balances out. I think more people should undertake the task of finding the way to melee because it is a Task SE isnt just going to give us some end all ability that will make it happen. RDM isnt broken the people that play the job and take the easy way out then bitch about it are the problem. The people like BBQ who have nodesire to see RDM melee ever or no desire to listen to factual information about it, using incorect termonology to describe it are the problem. I have worked at being able to melee and do my job and guess what it paid off, sure you can call me lolrdm melee, but i do my job better than 90% of the backliners and im on the front line.

I dont need to justify to anyone why or why not, i do this because i can, i know how to squeeze every amount of juice from my rdm im not some noob, ive been around since day 1 NA release and have taken my tme leveling RDM learning its limits at each level. I could write an extensive guide on how to be a true RDM but i dont bother too because people like BBQ who think they know it all about jobs they dont play or give up on will come in and turn it to a flame fest because its not the way they know inside and out, or its unfair to tell new people because "I had to backline so should they."

BBQ you are a BRD and a COR you know how support roles work which is nice but you dont know how RDM worksit is a support/melee roll, but somewhere down the line melee got hacked off because someone found it easier to level half assing the job. Half assing the job... let that sink in.

BRD's btw are one of the whiniest groups of people ive ever played with. More so than a rdm. They bitch about everything, pulling, party setups, to where people stand. Its not my job to make it easier for you. do people make it easier for me when they drop pro 4, do people make it easier for me when the spam spells pull hate and nearly die, do people make it easier for me when they stack berserk, LR, SE, no but i dont bitcabout that because its not my issue i deal with it. BRDS on the other hand leave party or refuse songs to people who dont stand in an exact tile, your the most whiney class out there. just like yor the most whiney person in this thread.

But But... what about all the equipment
But But... Nuking is so much better
But But... casting takes away from sword swings
But But... anything other than rdm/whm kills xp
But But... its not how i was told red mage work so its wrong.

RDM is a multi purpose job, and using al purposes at the same time make it as effecient as it can be, using it as one thing only is as good as a brd who dosent pull.

/end rant

[Luna]

Re: Refresh II

BRD's btw are one of the whiniest groups of people ive ever played with. More so than a rdm. They bitch about everything, pulling, party setups, to where people stand. Its not my job to make it easier for you. do people make it easier for me when they drop pro 4, do people make it easier for me when the spam spells pull hate and nearly die, do people make it easier for me when they stack berserk, LR, SE, no but i dont bitcabout that because its not my issue i deal with it. BRDS on the other hand leave party or refuse songs to people who dont stand in an exact tile, your the most whiney class out there. just like yor the most whiney person in this thread.

I have taken BRD to 50 and I know thats not very high, but the main reason BRD's complain and bitch so much is having to deal with Morons in a party who dont come for ballad, or move over to where ballad is being cast when they are a SAM/WAR with no mp and end up getting the wrong song. It all really varies, A person pulling hate and nearly dieing is a lot easier to handle than ppl who wont stay still, you know that after you raise that person the drama of them dying is all over and you move on, But as a BRD the idiocy just keeps going, its like people dont realize they actually have to stand a certain distance away for a certain spell to not effect/effect them, I know with newer players its all fine and dandy but once you get past lvl 30 you'd exspect ppl to know a bit better, and whats the use of having a BRD in your pt if you cant utilize its full potential? If you dont get any songs your supposed to get its like having an over gimped WHM with 30mp to toss one or two cures on you. I know some ppl who play BRD can be an ass, I've had to deal with them but you alaways have to remember what they had to go through lvling and what they still go through at lvl 75, if I took BRD to 75 and had to deal with all that, I'd be one bitchy person too lol, you'd think over time ppl would get it, but as we see now they really dont lol either that or just dont care, and thats not how players of FFXI are supposed to be since this game is souley based on team work and cooperating with your other team members, that includes standing where you need to be in order to get full benefit of another member's abilities, sure you have had some bad luck with ppl not doing what they need to and killing themsevles while your main healing, so you should know how it feels when ppl do this, and opt to be a better person and help those people on BRD out, regardless if you got any help lvling or not. It is all part of having the team spirit and learning from each other, isnt that what FFXI is all about?

[Krut]

Re: Refresh II

wall-o-text but I agree with you Saphiera, there is nothing more irritating than being half way through a ballad and having your ninja whom you just march/madagral'd walk right up beside you, making you start all over.

[MrMageo]

Re: Refresh II

Ok now that i am finished with that flame fest i just want to write a bit more about RDM/DNC.

Perhaps my first post back on pg.13 was to involved for some people or not descroptive enough i will try to explain it a little better.

/DNC offers the following

Drain Samba I, II - essentialy an endrain effect that replenishes HP
Aspir Samba I - like drain samba but for MP
Cure Waltz I,II- I = Cure II, II= Cure III
Divine Waltz- Curaga
Healing Waltz- Erase
Quick Step- Evade Down
Box Step- Def Down
Desperate Flourish- Inaccurate Gravity

Evaision Boost
Subtle Blow
Resist Slow
Acc Boost

Most people know these by now but i figure i would list them to avoid confusion.

Hypothesis: RDM/DNC can preform in a meripo as well as RDM/WHM
Test: A 3 month period of systematic tests, alterations 1 Hour Minimum Party
Location: Nyzul Isle Camp
Target: Colbri

Trial 1 December 12th-17th 2007

This first test was my first attempt at this combo. I solod in Kuftal for about and hour geting comfortable with macros and job abilities.

Plan: To use TP moves to cure the party while i enfeeble and support party

My original plan was to rely solely on TP for curing and status ailments, this however proved difficult with a lack of TP. Causing me to use MP. Thus i just returned to the back line.

Equipment
Mage stuff hiting 60-65% uncapped dagger, no Joyuese

Resault: Fail was not pleased with my performance and discredited the job.

Trial 2 January 22-29th 2008

The second attempt i now had about +20 in ACC and a capped dagger skill also brough sushi along

The Plan:

To use TP as a main cure for the party, allowing for conservation of MP for enfeebles and support.

I planned to use TP again as my same source of curring power, fared a little better this time around, could not maintain TP for a long chain, used too much MP moved to the back line.

Equitment
Main slots mage gear, accessories, Life belt, 2x woodsman +20 ACC
Squid Sushi, BRD songs took ballad Hit roughly 70-75%

Resault: Fail

Again i was disapointed in the job combo and shelved it. I was unable to support a party from the front line using only TP.

Trial 3

February 21-29th

I recently chose to pull this job back out and give it a whirl again. This endevour would be the most extensive and expensive

february 28th 2008

Group: RDM/DNC,BRD/NIN,SAM/NIN,SAM/NIN,WAR/NIN,WAR/NIN
i chose to haste the 2 war's and myself. the party agreed the faster sams would cause more curing.

The Plan: After reading about a wish list ability on the internet i got an idea of how to do this job. I was going about it the wrong way

I made my way out to the camp again, this time with a new practice in mind. Use MP while getting TP and use TP to replenish MP.

my plan for this would be to get TP to a relativly sustainable level. From soloing i found that 200+ TP is more than efficent. I also plannd on how i would get my MP back and what would be a comfortable amount. I settled on a "0" Base of MP of 400, if i spent my pool to below 400 i would shelv this job forever. I also set a base for safely returning to use my MP of 650 (250 off my cap). Once My MP reached this point i knew i would be safe regardless. I also set TP bars if i reach 200TP i will begin using TP, if i use it down to 100TP i will weapon skill and restart the proccess.

so essentially
BASE MP with equip 904

MP support to 400MP/ or 200TP which ever occurd first.
TP support to 100TP/ or 650MP which ever occurd first.
Once second instance has been met WS the mob.

I also made new macros

Cure <p2>
Haste <p3>
Refresh <me>
Curing Waltz <p4>

are just some examples.

I now felt prepared enough to battle

Equipment:
RDM AF Joyuese (Cap Sword) Life belt, 2x Woodsman Rings, Wivre Gorget, Amemet Mantle +1, 2x accurate earring + Food
I now hit 75-80% and 80% consistently sometimes more with a BRD madrigal

I noticed a much faster TP gain rate then before and made it too 200TP in 3 mobs my MP was only at 520 after 9x haste 3x refresh 6x cure 3 and 3x dia

haste 9x40 = 360
refrsh 3x40 = 120
cure3 6x44 = 264
dia2 3x30 = 90
total spent = 834

150mp x 3 = 450 recoverd

904-834 + 450 = 520

Withing the limit i set for myself

The next few fights went by fairly smooth by cutting the cures out of the equation and enfeebling the mob with box step i saved myself 354 MP over the next 3 fights alone.

As for TP expenditure i spent

3x box step 30% TP
3x cure waltz2 105% TP
2x divine waltz 70% TP
2x aspir samba 20% TP

for a total of 225% TP
seeing as i began with 200% TP over three fights i accumulated just as much over the next 3 if not more due to less spell casting. For sake of arguement we will say i gained 200%

200(start)+200(total over next 3 fights) = 400% tp - 225% = 175%

The Mp refresh for this job is now increased due to less spending

over the course of these three fights i spent 480 for 9x haste and refresh with 450 being returned for a 30 loss, oh but i forgot aspir samba. to get 200tp that would require 12 hits with my sword. On average i get about 4-7 MP hit

so 12x4-7 = 48-84

450 + 48-84 = 498-534 - 480 = 18-54 MP added back to my total

520+18-54 - 538-574 = free casting of haste/refresh for duration of "TP Mode"

so with 175% TP i can last 9 fights solely based off TP curing and enfeebling

bringing my total MP to

520 + (18x3-54x3) = 574 - 682

at which point i would Weapon skill my remaining 100% TP and start again.

Converting every 18-21 mobs instead of every 6-9

Resault: Pass

I was satisfied with this test and have since altered it.

I no longer cast 3x dia 2 for the first 3 battles, allowing me to get to the 200% threshold earlier and spending less MP

This is my testing compiled over seperate weeks in many different parties, i have plenty of information compiled but for the sake of space and time i condensed it into this.

Acctual TP% earned while Using /dnc abilities is acctually closer to 220-230 (per3 fights) depending on each paticular mob. Sometimes i gain TP but i never come out with less than -25%

I hope this shows some insight into the more mechanical side of it for those of you that prefer numbers instead of words.